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Thread: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

  1. #76
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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by othniel View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]

    I want you to see from this passage of scripture what the Lord showed to me through the Holy Spirit, and that being that the TWO OLIVE trees, which ARE the TWO WITNESSES are in fact two GROUPS of people rather than just two individual people as we were previously and falsely taught.
    Very true. As I said in an earlier post, candlesticks represent churches and the anointing. This is the biblical precedent for candlesticks. (ref Rev 1)

    Olive trees represent Israel and the church (grafted in). (Romans 11).

    These two groups are two churches in Jerusalem, possibly the Gentile and Jewish church, or possibly the Judah and Israel church.

    I believe the church in Jerusalem will take a central role because the Gentile church in other places will be persecuted and underground during the tribulation, yet all Jews will be protected during the tribulation, and so Jews in Israel will have more freedom to preach from Jerusalem, anywhere else they will be killed.
    (for 3.5 years the beast does not kill the witnesses - Rev 11, and also for 3.5 years the woman with the 12 stars is protected - Rev 12 - anyone see the link?)

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by othniel View Post
    Both passages of scripture speak of TWO WITNESSES of God and both verses speak of their bodies being left on the ground and NOT buried. However, from the verse in Revelation ALONE apart from the WHOLE word of God their has come the INTERPRETATION that these TWO WITNESSES are just two individuals being either Moses and Elijah or Enoch and Elijah, which is just SPECULATION at best.
    I disagree with your point above. Every single text should make sense in context. This is ALWAYS the prime way to understand a text. where the context isn't clear then you look for understanding from the rest of scripture and from history and external sources.
    This is the whole of that passage where they are included:
    Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
    Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
    Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
    Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
    Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
    Rev 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
    Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
    Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
    Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

    So it is clear there are two of them - now can we attribute ANY of the things given them to an entire group of people? Or are we forced to say that individuals from a group may have them, but it isn't true of an ENTIRE group.
    Prophesy, does everybody in a group prophesy?
    Fire pours from their mouth, does everybody in a group?
    Power to shut the sky, power to turn waters to blood, to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they desire; does everybody in the group have these powers?
    The answer is NO not every Jew or Christian has this power. In fact as these powers are attributed to BOTH of them, then it follows that EVERY Jew and EVERY Christian has to have this power.
    That concept is ridiculous - it isn't true for Jews full stop, and whereas every believer may pray for any of these, who actually does this knowing that God has ALREADY granted this power? Very few individuals in the life of the church had power like this.
    However for a couple of individuals to be given this power is NOT such a big ask. I agree to state it is Elijah and Enoch is speculation, but it does have a basis. John the Baptist was Elijah, even though he wasn't. Therefore if we see these two as being like John the Baptist was Elijah - that is preparing the way for the Lord - then that isn't speculation at all. They are called witnesses! Witnesses to or of what? Jesus of course. In particular to Him coming again shortly.
    What about their death? Well does EVERY Jew and Christian die 3.5 days BEFORE they are resurrected? Again that is a nonsense idea, yet people hold it as if there is a possibility. Now that is truly wild.

    But in light of the WHOLE word of God we can clearly see that the TWO WITNESSES are in fact two GROUPS of people, namely the church, spiritual Israel, coming from the wild olive tree, and the Jews, natural Israel being the natural olive tree.
    No we don't see that - there are indeed two olive trees mentioned in Romans, but as correctly mentioned one is wild. Thus it can't be speaking of the wild olive tree. The church was grafted into the natural olive tree. As long as they remained in the wild one then they were separated from Christ. There is ONLY ONE Vine. So this is actually taking an example from another passage and making a text into a pretext. The text in context shows clearly there is only one Olive tree that matters.

    Let's look at Revelation 11:3 that says,
    “I will GIVE power unto my two witnesses...”
    Notice that the word says, “I will GIVE power unto my two witnesses”, and not “I will SEND two witnesses who will have power.”
    You see the TWO WITNESSES are already here in the earth. The church and the Jews are already witnessing for God. Some Christian believers already have the fullness of the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and they are doing the works that Jesus did when he was in the earth as the Son of man, born of a women. Please read the study entitled “JESUS THE SON OF MAN” and "JESUS THE CHRIST".
    Your conclusion is faulty here too. Read Acts 1 & 2. Did the Apostles already have the Holy Spirit? Yes they did, but God told them to wait for the power of the Holy Spirit. He gave them a special outpouring - which I haven't heard has been repeated anywhere with tongues of fire.
    IOW the two witnesses are two people who may know Jesus, but God calls them specifically for this task. He then endues them with power to carry out this specific task.

    The clearest connection scripturally to these two are shown in Rev 1:20 where a lampstand represents a church - so does that fit - two churches? Nope not really. What about Zech 4 which is also a clear connection in terms of words used:
    Zec 4:11 Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?"
    Zec 4:12 And a second time I answered and said to him, "What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?"
    Zec 4:13 He said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" I said, "No, my lord."
    Zec 4:14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
    Here it is clearly two who are anointed by God. IOW the Olive Tree represents the anointing of God, the Lampstand shows it is as light even as He is light. So these two individuals may be representative of a group each, but they are still individuals.

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakeros View Post
    I disagree with your point above. Every single text should make sense in context. This is ALWAYS the prime way to understand a text. where the context isn't clear then you look for understanding from the rest of scripture and from history and external sources.
    This is the whole of that passage where they are included:
    Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
    Rev 11:5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
    Rev 11:6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
    Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
    Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
    Rev 11:9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
    Rev 11:10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
    Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
    Rev 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

    So it is clear there are two of them - now can we attribute ANY of the things given them to an entire group of people? Or are we forced to say that individuals from a group may have them, but it isn't true of an ENTIRE group.
    Prophesy, does everybody in a group prophesy?
    Fire pours from their mouth, does everybody in a group?
    Power to shut the sky, power to turn waters to blood, to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they desire; does everybody in the group have these powers?
    The answer is NO not every Jew or Christian has this power. In fact as these powers are attributed to BOTH of them, then it follows that EVERY Jew and EVERY Christian has to have this power.
    That concept is ridiculous - it isn't true for Jews full stop, and whereas every believer may pray for any of these, who actually does this knowing that God has ALREADY granted this power? Very few individuals in the life of the church had power like this.
    However for a couple of individuals to be given this power is NOT such a big ask. I agree to state it is Elijah and Enoch is speculation, but it does have a basis. John the Baptist was Elijah, even though he wasn't. Therefore if we see these two as being like John the Baptist was Elijah - that is preparing the way for the Lord - then that isn't speculation at all. They are called witnesses! Witnesses to or of what? Jesus of course. In particular to Him coming again shortly.
    What about their death? Well does EVERY Jew and Christian die 3.5 days BEFORE they are resurrected? Again that is a nonsense idea, yet people hold it as if there is a possibility. Now that is truly wild.


    No we don't see that - there are indeed two olive trees mentioned in Romans, but as correctly mentioned one is wild. Thus it can't be speaking of the wild olive tree. The church was grafted into the natural olive tree. As long as they remained in the wild one then they were separated from Christ. There is ONLY ONE Vine. So this is actually taking an example from another passage and making a text into a pretext. The text in context shows clearly there is only one Olive tree that matters.


    Your conclusion is faulty here too. Read Acts 1 & 2. Did the Apostles already have the Holy Spirit? Yes they did, but God told them to wait for the power of the Holy Spirit. He gave them a special outpouring - which I haven't heard has been repeated anywhere with tongues of fire.
    IOW the two witnesses are two people who may know Jesus, but God calls them specifically for this task. He then endues them with power to carry out this specific task.

    The clearest connection scripturally to these two are shown in Rev 1:20 where a lampstand represents a church - so does that fit - two churches? Nope not really. What about Zech 4 which is also a clear connection in terms of words used:
    Zec 4:11 Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?"
    Zec 4:12 And a second time I answered and said to him, "What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?"
    Zec 4:13 He said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" I said, "No, my lord."
    Zec 4:14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
    Here it is clearly two who are anointed by God. IOW the Olive Tree represents the anointing of God, the Lampstand shows it is as light even as He is light. So these two individuals may be representative of a group each, but they are still individuals.
    I agree....... but how about this?

    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Why can't Gabriel be one of the anointed ones which stand before God? I don't see biblically any other subjects which do so..

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    These two groups are two churches in Jerusalem
    I think the signs in heaven and in Jerusalem will show in a hidden way that the time is at hand, but the unfaithful will TOTALLY miss that this is happening because the two witnesses are not physical people, but representations of the spiritual affects in and upon the worldwide church, just as the city is not a physical city. The lampstand was originally 7 lights on ONE stand in the Zechariah prophecy, as both Judah and Israel did reside in the land. (When Samaria was destroyed the Judahites reabsorbed representative peoples of that nation). The light of the single 7-lighted lampstand was spread by the one nation via the one (2nd) temple (which at the time of Zechariah was under construction).

    The light no longer shines from Jerusalem via one lampstand, but now we know it is on seven lampstands that spread the 7 lights to the ends of the earth (Mystery Israel ) via the churches of Asia who were representatives of the world wide church

    yet all Jews will be protected during the tribulation, and so Jews in Israel will have more freedom to preach from Jerusalem, anywhere else they will be killed.
    (for 3.5 years the beast does not kill the witnesses - Rev 11, and also for 3.5 years the woman with the 12 stars is protected - Rev 12 - anyone see the link?)
    Righto. There is a link. The city street they die in is not pysical, in the sense that Mystery Babylon is a non physical city of Commercialism and Apostacy. The woman with 12 stars does seem to be physical Israel, but the fact that the woman is hidden in the wilderness before the 42 month war starts tell us that it is not physical Israel in view during the war, but actually a worldwide persecuation of both the remnant of Israel and the church.

    In proper order the dragon does not wage war until after the woman gives birth to the christ child, at which time the woman flees to a wilderness place where she is nourished by "they". They means the two witnesses.

    There are only two possibilities I can see.

    1) The 7 year view:
    The woman of Israel/Judah (or maybe the church) rediscovers her identity amid a great time of trial (birthpain) for Jews/church
    The child she gives birth to is a reference to the end times generation of chosen who rule with Christ.
    The Dragon situates the world to kill/capture the elect
    Dragon fails after 42 month long physical war which includes both demonic "star" power and two-witness counter plagues.
    During a brief war in Heaven, the Devil is cast to earth along with his higher demons,
    Devil wins the physical war against the witnesses.
    Then there is worldwide effort to exterminate all Christians who don't worship the Beast which lasts for a 3.5 more years (time-times-1/2).
    Left behind Christians are protected from the antichrist by miracles (earth helps the woman?)
    *[in this view it is hard not to conclude that there is a mid trib rapture of the Israel-child-church, and a 3.5 yr GT to redeem physical Israel]

    2) The 2000 year view:
    The woman was original covenant Judah and Israel pre-Christ.
    Her birth pain was the oppression of Judah under Rome.
    The dragon was Roman and Idumean (Herod) Satanic empire and the child is Christ himself.
    The resurrection/ascention is the child going to the throne.
    The woman in the wilderness is the loss of national identity for Israel and the Diaspora of the saints (70 AD, and in my view this is the beginning of the GT)
    The war in heaven is a lengthy battle in which the world government is given over to limited-general control of the Beast from 70 AD to present day.
    Influence by God present only through the church (Christ's only remaining kingdom on earth).
    A 1260 day/42 month time of great lawlessness and bitterness will overtake the world which will be opposed by the secret remnant of the two witnesses who are the covenant church.
    Failing to exterminate the Jewish mystery remnant (and thereby transfer the land grant of Israel) and also failing to win the war in heaven, Satan is cast to earth - coinciding with the end of the 1260 days.
    For roughtly 3.5 years Satan will be on earth (perhaps physically manifested).
    War surrounding Israel and Jerusalem -with armies surrounding Jerusalem- and a struggle for control of the Temple mount.
    Many Christians will be expelled and killed in the Middle East. (final effort to rule the temple mount and claim ownership by the willing submission of 100% worship)
    Failure by Dragon to kill or expel all true believers due to the earth helping the woman (a war between east and west?)

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    I think the signs in heaven and in Jerusalem will show in a hidden way that the time is at hand, but the unfaithful will TOTALLY miss that this is happening because the two witnesses are not physical people, but representations of the spiritual affects in and upon the worldwide church, just as the city is not a physical city. The lampstand was originally 7 lights on ONE stand in the Zechariah prophecy, as both Judah and Israel did reside in the land. (When Samaria was destroyed the Judahites reabsorbed representative peoples of that nation). The light of the single 7-lighted lampstand was spread by the one nation via the one (2nd) temple (which at the time of Zechariah was under construction).

    The light no longer shines from Jerusalem via one lampstand, but now we know it is on seven lampstands that spread the 7 lights to the ends of the earth (Mystery Israel ) via the churches of Asia who were representatives of the world wide church



    Righto. There is a link. The city street they die in is not pysical, in the sense that Mystery Babylon is a non physical city of Commercialism and Apostacy. The woman with 12 stars does seem to be physical Israel, but the fact that the woman is hidden in the wilderness before the 42 month war starts tell us that it is not physical Israel in view during the war, but actually a worldwide persecuation of both the remnant of Israel and the church.

    In proper order the dragon does not wage war until after the woman gives birth to the christ child, at which time the woman flees to a wilderness place where she is nourished by "they". They means the two witnesses.

    There are only two possibilities I can see.

    1) The 7 year view:
    The woman of Israel/Judah (or maybe the church) rediscovers her identity amid a great time of trial (birthpain) for Jews/church
    The child she gives birth to is a reference to the end times generation of chosen who rule with Christ.
    The Dragon situates the world to kill/capture the elect
    Dragon fails after 42 month long physical war which includes both demonic "star" power and two-witness counter plagues.
    During a brief war in Heaven, the Devil is cast to earth along with his higher demons,
    Devil wins the physical war against the witnesses.
    Then there is worldwide effort to exterminate all Christians who don't worship the Beast which lasts for a 3.5 more years (time-times-1/2).
    Left behind Christians are protected from the antichrist by miracles (earth helps the woman?)
    *[in this view it is hard not to conclude that there is a mid trib rapture of the Israel-child-church, and a 3.5 yr GT to redeem physical Israel]

    2) The 2000 year view:
    The woman was original covenant Judah and Israel pre-Christ.
    Her birth pain was the oppression of Judah under Rome.
    The dragon was Roman and Idumean (Herod) Satanic empire and the child is Christ himself.
    The resurrection/ascention is the child going to the throne.
    The woman in the wilderness is the loss of national identity for Israel and the Diaspora of the saints (70 AD, and in my view this is the beginning of the GT)
    The war in heaven is a lengthy battle in which the world government is given over to limited-general control of the Beast from 70 AD to present day.
    Influence by God present only through the church (Christ's only remaining kingdom on earth).
    A 1260 day/42 month time of great lawlessness and bitterness will overtake the world which will be opposed by the secret remnant of the two witnesses who are the covenant church.
    Failing to exterminate the Jewish mystery remnant (and thereby transfer the land grant of Israel) and also failing to win the war in heaven, Satan is cast to earth - coinciding with the end of the 1260 days.
    For roughtly 3.5 years Satan will be on earth (perhaps physically manifested).
    War surrounding Israel and Jerusalem -with armies surrounding Jerusalem- and a struggle for control of the Temple mount.
    Many Christians will be expelled and killed in the Middle East. (final effort to rule the temple mount and claim ownership by the willing submission of 100% worship)
    Failure by Dragon to kill or expel all true believers due to the earth helping the woman (a war between east and west?)
    wow, the 7 year view has a lot of assumptions.

    How about the 3.5 year view:
    Gentiles preach the gospel to the whole world, all nations hear the gospel. The success of the gospel brings about the following:
    1) the completeness of the nations (romans 11:25) and Jews become open to the gospel
    2) the fall of Satan, he is overcome by our testimony (Rev 12)
    3) The end-times, because the end only comes when the gospel is preached to all nations (ref Jesus)

    The fall of Satan (Rev 12) causes:
    1) 3.5 years of persecution
    2) 3.5 years of protection for Israel
    3) 3.5 years of Satan's wrath and deception
    4) the appearance of the antichrist to rule for 3.5 years (Rev 13)
    5) 3.5 years of the antichrists persecution (Rev 13/Daniel 7)
    6) The appearance of the two witnesses (Rev 11) for 3.5 years of ministry to the Jews who are protected for 3.5 years and open to the gospel for 3.5 years.

    The end of the 3.5 years of the two witnesses results in their resurrection, the general resurrection, Armageddon and the second coming amidst a great earthquake.

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    wow, the 7 year view has a lot of assumptions.

    How about the 3.5 year view:
    Gentiles preach the gospel to the whole world, all nations hear the gospel. The success of the gospel brings about the following:
    1) the completeness of the nations (romans 11:25) and Jews become open to the gospel
    2) the fall of Satan, he is overcome by our testimony (Rev 12)
    3) The end-times, because the end only comes when the gospel is preached to all nations (ref Jesus)

    The fall of Satan (Rev 12) causes:
    1) 3.5 years of persecution
    2) 3.5 years of protection for Israel
    3) 3.5 years of Satan's wrath and deception
    4) the appearance of the antichrist to rule for 3.5 years (Rev 13)
    5) 3.5 years of the antichrists persecution (Rev 13/Daniel 7)
    6) The appearance of the two witnesses (Rev 11) for 3.5 years of ministry to the Jews who are protected for 3.5 years and open to the gospel for 3.5 years.

    The end of the 3.5 years of the two witnesses results in their resurrection, the general resurrection, Armageddon and the second coming amidst a great earthquake.
    What I personally find hard to accept about this is the fact it leaves no time for the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit to make war against them after they finish their testimony. IMO, another 3.5 year period is needed for this, in order to fulfill Rev 13 for one, which has to occur once they finish their testimony. And for the record, I don't take these 2 witnesses as 2 literal people, though in the past, there was a time I did. I realize we've already been through some of this in the past, where I tried to show why I disagreed that one 3.5 year period just doesn't seem to cut it. Also I'm no longer convinced the 3.5 years are literal years. But I still connect it to the first and 2nd halves of the 70th week of Daniel 9 believe it or not. I'm somewhat thinking when the 2 witnesses are prophesying, this is representative of the first half of the final week. After they finish their testimony, and that the beast makes war with them, this is representative of the last half of the final week.

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    What I personally find hard to accept about this is the fact it leaves no time for the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit to make war against them after they finish their testimony. IMO, another 3.5 year period is needed for this, in order to fulfill Rev 13 for one, which has to occur once they finish their testimony. And for the record, I don't take these 2 witnesses as 2 literal people, though in the past, there was a time I did. I realize we've already been through some of this in the past, where I tried to show why I disagreed that one 3.5 year period just doesn't seem to cut it. Also I'm no longer convinced the 3.5 years are literal years. But I still connect it to the first and 2nd halves of the 70th week of Daniel 9 believe it or not. I'm somewhat thinking when the 2 witnesses are prophesying, this is representative of the first half of the final week. After they finish their testimony, and that the beast makes war with them, this is representative of the last half of the final week.
    IF it takes only 3.5 years to persecute a worldwide church, 30 days is more than enough to persecute and martyr all the believers in one city. Especially when they have been so open and effective against the antichrist, their destruction will be sought after and the retribution swift. (30 days comes from the contrast between the 1260 days of the witnesses, and the 1290 days until the resurrection of Daniel 12.)

    I know we have discussed this topic before, I see the rapture and earthquake in the city, as occurring at the same time as the general rapture and general earthquake in the rest of the world. But I guess the wording isn't clear enough to prove my point, at the same time there is nothing in Rev 10/11 that contradicts my view either. Due to no peace treaty being mentioned in the NT, the 7 year view has little backing outside of the single controversial verse of Dan 9:27, and when you overlap all the 3.5 years it clarifies rather than complicates doctrine, and so I stick with my "overlap" approach and one simple 3.5 year period.

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Rev. 11:11 says three and a half days, not three and a half -- years.
    So if we change days to years there, we should change days to years when it says the witnesses shall prophesy 1260 days. Rev. 11:3

    Since 3.5 is half of 7, it sounds like this final seven goes on for quite awhile. How long is it going to take to accomplish scattering the Holy people and bring in righteousness? They were scattered a very long time, certainly longer than 1260 days. It was Daniel that brought it up in the first place and they were scattered until 1948.

    I wonder if days can be understood the way we would say, "back in the day of captivity", or in the time of Jesus. time times and half time.

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnymuldare View Post
    Rev. 11:11 says three and a half days, not three and a half -- years.
    So if we change days to years there, we should change days to years when it says the witnesses shall prophesy 1260 days. Rev. 11:3

    Since 3.5 is half of 7, it sounds like this final seven goes on for quite awhile. How long is it going to take to accomplish scattering the Holy people and bring in righteousness? They were scattered a very long time, certainly longer than 1260 days. It was Daniel that brought it up in the first place and they were scattered until 1948.

    I wonder if days can be understood the way we would say, "back in the day of captivity", or in the time of Jesus. time times and half time.
    I prefer to just believe days are days. I dont change the 3.5 days to years. I believe the 3.5 days are 3.5 days. I believe the 1260 days are 1260 days. I believe the witnesses are there for 3.5 years because the verse says they will prophesy for 1260 days, which add up to 3.5 years.

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by DivaD
    I'm somewhat thinking when the 2 witnesses are prophesying, this is representative of the first half of the final week. After they finish their testimony, and that the beast makes war with them, this is representative of the last half of the final week.
    In terms of Daniel's final week, there is only one way I see it as partially fulfilled, and that is in 70 AD, the middle of the week is marked by the siege of Titus. However, I still see the final 7 years of the antichrist as prophesied separately and fuflills a separate week of its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Due to no peace treaty being mentioned in the NT, the 7 year view has little backing outside of the single controversial verse of Dan 9:27, and when you overlap all the 3.5 years it clarifies rather than complicates doctrine, and so I stick with my "overlap" approach and one simple 3.5 year period.
    Nebucadezzar's 7 years as Beast - Jacob's 7-times bowing before Esau - the Jericho spies 3.5 days of hiding and Joshua's 3.5 day battle preparation - Joshua's 7 times marching around the city - God's 7 proclamations against Sodom - Noah's 7 days before the flood)

    The end times is definitely 7 years, but the prophecy of weeks could be partially complete, meaning that the end of the prophecy of weeks probably pertains to the final 3.5 years of the end times. Or IOW the first half of the end times 7 years does not overlap Daniel's prophecy. For one thing 1260 days is short of 3.5 years by exactly one month. All 3.5 year periods in the Jewish Calendar have at least one extra month and would be closer to 1290 days. So 42 months is - strictly speaking - not a half of a week, and is a prelude to the final half-week. 1260 days plus 1335 days is almost precisely 7 years. In terms of months it is 86.5 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    IF it takes only 3.5 years to persecute a worldwide church, 30 days is more than enough to persecute and martyr all the believers in one city.
    Persecute and "kill" are different. If the two witnesses are not literal people, then killing them is not really litteral death. If the city and the witnesses are symbolic of worldwide religious tolerance/intollerance then 30 days is not enough to wage a propaganda war to eliminate a religious viewpoint. (This is not to say that no physical killing takes place, only that the physical killing is not the primary thing explained by the prophecy.


    Especially when they have been so open and effective against the antichrist, their destruction will be sought after and the retribution swift. (30 days comes from the contrast between the 1260 days of the witnesses, and the 1290 days until the resurrection of Daniel 12.)

  11. #86

    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by othniel View Post
    I was always taught that the two witnesses were either two of the following three people depending upon who's book I was reading. Some would say that the two witnesses were Moses and Elijah, and others have said the two witnesses were Enoch and Elijah.

    Finally I told the Lord that I just was not getting or understanding what he was trying to show me, then he spoke to my heart and said “Do not think of my two witnesses as two people, but rather think of the two witnesses as two groups of people.” So I read this passage again and began to see clues in the other verses as to who these two witnesses are.
    The next verse in Revelation chapter 11 reads,

    “These (speaking of the two witnesses) ARE the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”
    I agree, Othneil. Those witnesses witnessed all around the world until 1948. Before that time it was to be expected that they would die for going back to Jerusalem, and it was also expected that those forbidding them to come would celebrate after they murdered them. The Bible says in Rev. 11:10 "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."
    Gratefully it is against the law to commit terror in Jerusalem, killing innocent civilians, since 1967, but it does happen, law or no law.
    Here is a report of some students having been killed in an attack. Half way down the article there is a link that says the perpetrators celebrated in the streets of Gaza. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...515985,00.html

    The event reported out of Aljazeera probably read more like this: "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." Rev. 11:9-10
    But guess what. The Bible says that after 3.5 (days), or half of a seven, however loooong that seven lasts, that the witnesses "stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." Rev. 11:11-12

    The Bible also says the dead in Christ will rise first. These students and all other victims who have preceded them will be included in that number, a number that is too big to count according to Revelation 8.

    I wonder how those headlines will read?

  12. #87

    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    I really, really hope that the two witnesses are two individuals blessed with tremendous Holy Spirit power. Two individuals who will help us prophecy students truly know whats what, and where we stand prophetically. How awesome would it be to have these two guys in the world? They will have the power to back up their words and many will be turned to righteousness. Their sackcloth attire brings to mind a message of repentance and judgement.
    I've heard that a lot of prophecies have a double fulfillment. In this case, the 1260 years approach could represent two churches, while the 1260 literal days approach can also yield two literal individuals. How Exciting, we can have our cake and eat it too!!!

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