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Thread: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

  1. #1
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    7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    This is the outline of a sermon tonight delivered by a guest speaker Ed Hindson. I'd like to get people's view on this. I bought his books and video since this is an area of focus for me now.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep."

    Translator Notes:

    1 Thess. 4:13 those who are asleep. Sleep is the familiar NT euphemism for death, which describes the appearance of the deceased (see note on 1 Cor. 11:30). It describes the dead body, not the soul (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1–9; Phil. 1:23). Sleep is used of Jarius’s daughter (Matt. 9:24) whom Jesus raised from the dead and Stephen who was stoned to death (Acts 7:60; cf. John 11:11; 1 Cor. 7:39; 15:6, 18, 51; 2 Pet. 3:4). Those who sleep are identified in 1 Thess. 4:16 as “the dead in Christ.” The people, in ignorance, had come to the conclusion that those who die miss the Lord’s return and they were grieved over their absence at such a glorious event. Thus the departure of a loved one brought great anguish to the soul. But there is no reason for Christians to sorrow when a brother dies as if some great loss to that person has come.

    1 Thess. 4:14 God will bring with him. As Jesus died and rose, so also will those who die believing in him rise again so they can be taken to heaven with the Lord (see notes on John 14:1–3; 1 Cor. 15:51–58). These texts describe the rapture of the church, which takes place when Jesus comes to collect his redeemed and take them back to heaven. Those who have died before that time (called “those who have fallen asleep”) will be gathered and taken back to heaven with the Lord.

    7 Assurances of the Rapture:

    1) Reminder: Do not Grieve
    2) Reassurance: Dead will Return - v.14
    3) Return: Lord will Return
    4) Resurrection: Dead in Christ will rise first
    5) Rapture: Living will be caught up - the greek word Happazo = snatches away
    6) Reunion: With the Lord
    7) Resolution: Comfort one another

    3 Signals:

    1) Triumphal Shout
    2) Voice of the ArchAngel
    3) Triumph of God

    10 Reasons of for a Pre-Trib Rapture

    1) Jesus' Promise - John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

    2) Jesus' Instruction - Matt: 24:42-44 "Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

    3) Persecuted woman in Rev 12:1-2 symbolizes the Nation of Israel - "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth."

    4) Church is not the object of divine wrath - 1 Thess 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

    5) Rapture is imminent - Titus 2:13 "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"

    6) Rapture is instantaneous - 1 Cor 15:51-52 "Behold! I tell you
    a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

    7) Rapture is unique - 1 Thess 4:13-18

    8) Rapture precedes Bema Seat - 2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    9) Rapture precedes Marriage - Rev 19:7-8 "Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."

    10) Rapture precedes Armageddon - Rev 19:4 "And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, “'Amen. Hallelujah!'”
    I know what I know
    I know what I don't know
    I don't know what I don't know.

  2. #2

    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Troib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    This is the outline of a sermon tonight delivered by a guest speaker Ed Hindson. I'd like to get people's view on this. I bought his books and video since this is an area of focus for me now.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep."

    Translator Notes:

    1 Thess. 4:13 those who are asleep. Sleep is the familiar NT euphemism for death, which describes the appearance of the deceased (see note on 1 Cor. 11:30). It describes the dead body, not the soul (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1–9; Phil. 1:23). Sleep is used of Jarius’s daughter (Matt. 9:24) whom Jesus raised from the dead and Stephen who was stoned to death (Acts 7:60; cf. John 11:11; 1 Cor. 7:39; 15:6, 18, 51; 2 Pet. 3:4). Those who sleep are identified in 1 Thess. 4:16 as “the dead in Christ.” The people, in ignorance, had come to the conclusion that those who die miss the Lord’s return and they were grieved over their absence at such a glorious event. Thus the departure of a loved one brought great anguish to the soul. But there is no reason for Christians to sorrow when a brother dies as if some great loss to that person has come.

    1 Thess. 4:14 God will bring with him. As Jesus died and rose, so also will those who die believing in him rise again so they can be taken to heaven with the Lord (see notes on John 14:1–3; 1 Cor. 15:51–58). These texts describe the rapture of the church, which takes place when Jesus comes to collect his redeemed and take them back to heaven. Those who have died before that time (called “those who have fallen asleep”) will be gathered and taken back to heaven with the Lord.

    7 Assurances of the Rapture:

    1) Reminder: Do not Grieve
    2) Reassurance: Dead will Return - v.14
    3) Return: Lord will Return
    4) Resurrection: Dead in Christ will rise first
    5) Rapture: Living will be caught up - the greek word Happazo = snatches away
    6) Reunion: With the Lord
    7) Resolution: Comfort one another

    3 Signals:

    1) Triumphal Shout
    2) Voice of the ArchAngel
    3) Triumph of God

    10 Reasons of for a Pre-Trib Rapture

    1) Jesus' Promise - John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

    2) Jesus' Instruction - Matt: 24:42-44 "Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

    3) Persecuted woman in Rev 12:1-2 symbolizes the Nation of Israel - "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth."

    4) Church is not the object of divine wrath - 1 Thess 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

    5) Rapture is imminent - Titus 2:13 "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"

    6) Rapture is instantaneous - 1 Cor 15:51-52 "Behold! I tell you
    a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

    7) Rapture is unique - 1 Thess 4:13-18

    8) Rapture precedes Bema Seat - 2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    9) Rapture precedes Marriage - Rev 19:7-8 "Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."

    10) Rapture precedes Armageddon - Rev 19:4 "And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, “'Amen. Hallelujah!'”
    Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

    I don't see it in anything you are presenting.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    This is the outline of a sermon tonight delivered by a guest speaker Ed Hindson. I'd like to get people's view on this. I bought his books and video since this is an area of focus for me now.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep."

    Translator Notes:

    1 Thess. 4:13 those who are asleep. Sleep is the familiar NT euphemism for death, which describes the appearance of the deceased (see note on 1 Cor. 11:30). It describes the dead body, not the soul (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1–9; Phil. 1:23). Sleep is used of Jarius’s daughter (Matt. 9:24) whom Jesus raised from the dead and Stephen who was stoned to death (Acts 7:60; cf. John 11:11; 1 Cor. 7:39; 15:6, 18, 51; 2 Pet. 3:4). Those who sleep are identified in 1 Thess. 4:16 as “the dead in Christ.” The people, in ignorance, had come to the conclusion that those who die miss the Lord’s return and they were grieved over their absence at such a glorious event. Thus the departure of a loved one brought great anguish to the soul. But there is no reason for Christians to sorrow when a brother dies as if some great loss to that person has come.

    1 Thess. 4:14 God will bring with him. As Jesus died and rose, so also will those who die believing in him rise again so they can be taken to heaven with the Lord (see notes on John 14:1–3; 1 Cor. 15:51–58). These texts describe the rapture of the church, which takes place when Jesus comes to collect his redeemed and take them back to heaven. Those who have died before that time (called “those who have fallen asleep”) will be gathered and taken back to heaven with the Lord.

    7 Assurances of the Rapture:

    1) Reminder: Do not Grieve
    2) Reassurance: Dead will Return - v.14
    3) Return: Lord will Return
    4) Resurrection: Dead in Christ will rise first
    5) Rapture: Living will be caught up - the greek word Happazo = snatches away
    6) Reunion: With the Lord
    7) Resolution: Comfort one another

    3 Signals:

    1) Triumphal Shout
    2) Voice of the ArchAngel
    3) Triumph of God

    10 Reasons of for a Pre-Trib Rapture

    1) Jesus' Promise - John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

    2) Jesus' Instruction - Matt: 24:42-44 "Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

    3) Persecuted woman in Rev 12:1-2 symbolizes the Nation of Israel - "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth."

    4) Church is not the object of divine wrath - 1 Thess 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

    5) Rapture is imminent - Titus 2:13 "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"

    6) Rapture is instantaneous - 1 Cor 15:51-52 "Behold! I tell you
    a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

    7) Rapture is unique - 1 Thess 4:13-18

    8) Rapture precedes Bema Seat - 2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

    9) Rapture precedes Marriage - Rev 19:7-8 "Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."

    10) Rapture precedes Armageddon - Rev 19:4 "And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, “'Amen. Hallelujah!'”
    Much as I disagree with wpm's manner of handling scripture, he is correct. Most of your proofs above are for a rapture, not for a rapture before the onset of the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation. But not to dash your hopes, why not consider these within their contexts;

    Luke 21:36
    "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

    Revelation 3:10
    "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

    The one crucial thing attached to these verses is that they are CONDITIONAL. That is, an escape from the "things" and the "hour" of Great Tribulation must be earned. It is not guaranteed like many teachers teach.

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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    The dead in Christ shall rise first....


    This is the only verse you need to understand to eliminate the possibility of a supposed rapture. For the alive and remain cannot precede those dead in Christ which are to be resurrected. Hence you cannot have a rapture before the resurrection of the dead which does not occur until the last day period.

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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The dead in Christ shall rise first....


    This is the only verse you need to understand to eliminate the possibility of a supposed rapture. For the alive and remain cannot precede those dead in Christ which are to be resurrected. Hence you cannot have a rapture before the resurrection of the dead which does not occur until the last day period.
    Hhmmm... Enoch is raptured before a resurrection of Christians, Elijah is raptured before a resurrection of Christians, Philip is raptured before a resurrection of his Brethren (Act.8:39). And...

    Christ is resurrected "before" the Old Testament saints in Matthew 27:53, then they "after" Christ's resurrection but before those of 1st Thessalonians 4, and then the opposers of the Beast are resurrected 1'000 years before "the rest of the dead" (Rev.20:5).

    So while I agree that the general rapture of any saint goes AFTER his resurrection, if he/she was dead, the timing of rapture is not a fixed Law of scripture. There are too many exceptions.

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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hhmmm... Enoch is raptured before a resurrection of Christians, Elijah is raptured before a resurrection of Christians, Philip is raptured before a resurrection of his Brethren (Act.8:39). And...

    Christ is resurrected "before" the Old Testament saints in Matthew 27:53, then they "after" Christ's resurrection but before those of 1st Thessalonians 4, and then the opposers of the Beast are resurrected 1'000 years before "the rest of the dead" (Rev.20:5).

    So while I agree that the general rapture of any saint goes AFTER his resurrection, if he/she was dead, the timing of rapture is not a fixed Law of scripture. There are too many exceptions.
    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    I think we can make the connection that the dead in Christ whom rise is what is being said above the resurrection on the last day. In addition the wicked are also raised on this day.

  7. #7

    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    Regarding the OP, as I see it, #2 ("Jesus' Instruction - Matt: 24:42-44") is not about the rapture, but about His Second Coming to the earth (as are all "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come" verses/passages). Likewise Luke 21:36 is about His Second Coming to the earth (not the rapture). But just to be clear, I do believe there is a pre-trib rapture (of the Church which is His body [ALL of its members]), it's just not being referred to in these two passages.

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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    What I see being talked about as a rapture, is the first resurrection, the resurrection of the firstfruits. The firstfruits are resurrected and changed to spirit, meet Christ in the air and return to the earth on Mount Zion with Christ.

    Christ preys that the Father not take them out of the world.

    John 17:15 "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

    I can not understand why anyone would want to be raptured, to leave there children, grandchildren and loved ones to go off to somewhere and not help their loved ones as they go through the worse time in the history of the world. I sure don’t want to run and hide, leaving my children and grandchildren without my help and protection and experience. No I will stay and help all I can. Just look at the people that are converted during the great tribulation.

    Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

    Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    This is the outline of a sermon tonight delivered by a guest speaker Ed Hindson. I'd like to get people's view on this. I bought his books and video since this is an area of focus for me now.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep."

    Translator Notes:

    1 Thess. 4:13 those who are asleep. Sleep is the familiar NT euphemism for death, which describes the appearance of the deceased (see note on 1 Cor. 11:30). It describes the dead body, not the soul (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1–9; Phil. 1:23). Sleep is used of Jarius’s daughter (Matt. 9:24) whom Jesus raised from the dead and Stephen who was stoned to death (Acts 7:60; cf. John 11:11; 1 Cor. 7:39; 15:6, 18, 51; 2 Pet. 3:4). Those who sleep are identified in 1 Thess. 4:16 as “the dead in Christ.” The people, in ignorance, had come to the conclusion that those who die miss the Lord’s return and they were grieved over their absence at such a glorious event. Thus the departure of a loved one brought great anguish to the soul. But there is no reason for Christians to sorrow when a brother dies as if some great loss to that person has come.
    Two things wrong here -
    First sleep is the NT euphemism of when the spirit and soul leave the body. That is what death is a separation. It isn't about the dead body, but that the body is dead. Gen 2:7 gives the reverse, a body infused with spirit becoming a living soul.
    Second, and more important for this thread is that people were NOT worried about missing the Lord's return. They had a much more fundamental fear - and it is in 1 Th 4:13 - that of having no hope, because they died. This is speaking of the gospel that Paul preached and what happens when you die. If Paul had taught the, when you die you go to be with Jesus in Heaven, then they would have had hope. However Paul had preached on the resurrection at Jesus' return. So those who are dead will miss this resurrection. Paul then writes to assure them that those who sleep in Christ WILL also take part in this resurrection of which he had preached.

    1 Thess. 4:14 God will bring with him. As Jesus died and rose, so also will those who die believing in him rise again so they can be taken to heaven with the Lord (see notes on John 14:1–3; 1 Cor. 15:51–58). These texts describe the rapture of the church, which takes place when Jesus comes to collect his redeemed and take them back to heaven. Those who have died before that time (called “those who have fallen asleep”) will be gathered and taken back to heaven with the Lord.

    7 Assurances of the Rapture:

    1) Reminder: Do not Grieve
    2) Reassurance: Dead will Return - v.14
    3) Return: Lord will Return
    4) Resurrection: Dead in Christ will rise first
    5) Rapture: Living will be caught up - the greek word Happazo = snatches away
    6) Reunion: With the Lord
    7) Resolution: Comfort one another

    3 Signals:

    1) Triumphal Shout
    2) Voice of the ArchAngel
    3) Triumph of God
    This pretty much is to assure one of rapture NOT pretrib rapture. In fact the 3 Signals militate against a pretrib rapture.

    10 Reasons of for a Pre-Trib Rapture
    1) Jesus' Promise - John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."
    This doesn't speak of a pretrib rapture, but about the New Jerusalem which is post rapture, post millennium.

    2) Jesus' Instruction - Matt: 24:42-44 "Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
    This is a key doctrine of pretrib - that of the imminent return of Jesus. If there are NO signs that must occur BEFORE Jesus' return then it is fair to hold He could return at any moment.
    However there are a number of passages which refute this idea using this exact same imagery. The first is found in the continuation of Thessalonians
    1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
    1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
    1Th 5:3 While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
    1Th 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
    1Th 5:5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
    Here I have put in bold the contrasting view - for those in darkness that day will be like a thief in the night. However those who are children of light, will not be surprised like a thief. So this passage is actually speaking of how the experience will be for a non-believer and NOT for a child of God.
    Additionally we have:
    Rev 16:15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!")
    Here Jesus is speaking to His people during the time of wrath reminding them that He is coming like a thief - thus intimating He hasn't already come. IOW that day hasn't occurred yet! This statement though is after the 6th bowl of wrath and ONLY one bowl left.

    3) Persecuted woman in Rev 12:1-2 symbolizes the Nation of Israel - "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth."
    Not sure why this is quoted - yes the woman is Israel, and?? She gives brith to Jesus, but note she is given a place of safety where she is nourished, it is the church who are persecuted by the dragon and the beast and NOT Israel.

    4) Church is not the object of divine wrath - 1 Thess 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
    This speaks of being cast into the LoF primarily, but even so, it is clear when you read the bowls of wrath that Believers are protected as they are with the trumpets.
    Rev 16:2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshipped its image.
    A simple example that it is ONLY those who received the mark who are afflicted by God's wrath on this occasion.

    5) Rapture is imminent - Titus 2:13 "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"
    See point above about imminency. This ignore clear teaching that the man of sin MUST arise first for example. Also if you have endured 3.5 years of Great Tribulation, then His return will indeed be a blessed hope.

    6) Rapture is instantaneous - 1 Cor 15:51-52 "Behold! I tell you
    a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."
    Actually it is the change which is instantaneous, we don't know how long the rapture takes. Regardless it doesn't support a pretrib rapture.

    7) Rapture is unique - 1 Thess 4:13-18
    Again how does that support or deny pretrib?
    8) Rapture precedes Bema Seat - 2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."
    And what is pretrib about this?
    9) Rapture precedes Marriage - Rev 19:7-8 "Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."
    Again what is pretrib about this?
    10) Rapture precedes Armageddon - Rev 19:4 "And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, “'Amen. Hallelujah!'”
    Actually it is when they assemble at Armageddon that Rapture occurs. he Devil knows he will only have 3.5 years. This again precludes the imminent return.
    So nothing here to make me accept pretrib.

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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    Many of you didn't fully read my OP. I went to service last tonight, and Ed Hindson gave the sermon. He has written several books on this topic. I was interested, bought some of his books, and wanted to get other people's view. If he that far off the mark, he is one very charismatic preacher because I was sold on his views. I'll look through his literature (I have plenty of them now) and see if I can answer some of the questions posed.
    I know what I know
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  11. #11
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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Troib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

    I don't see it in anything you are presenting.
    The rapture of the Church is taught in 1 Thess 4:15-18 "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

    This passage of Scripture delineates five stages to the rapture:

    1) The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and with the sound of a trumpet
    2) The dead in Christ will rise first
    3) we who are alive (the church) and remain on the earth will be "caught up" together with them in #2 in the clouds
    4) we will meet the Lord, and
    5) we shall be with Him

    Paul also unveiled what he called a mystery pertaining to the rapture. In 1 Cor 15:51-52 he explained that some Christians would not sleep (die), but their bodies will be instantly transformed. I already cited the verse but here it is again:

    "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

    This is what will happen when the rapture takes place: Without warning (a thief in the night), the bodies of all believers who have died since the day of the Pentecost will suddenly be transformed into new, living, immortal, resurrected bodies. Even those whose bodies have long since decayed or whose ashes have been scattered out over the oceans will receive a new body. Then we enter the 7 years of Tribulation.

    The church is not on earth in Rev 4-18. If God preserves the church through the Tribulation, why have a rapture?? The NT term for the church is ekklesia and it is used 19 times in Rev 1-3, which deals with the historical church of the 1st century. However, Rev uses church one more time at very end - Rev 22:16 - where John returns to addressing the 1st century church. Most interesting is that nowhere in the Tribulation is the term church used in reference to believers on earth. That is because the church was caught up prior to the 7yrs of Tribulation. How else do you explain that?
    I know what I know
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  12. #12
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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    I think we can make the connection that the dead in Christ whom rise is what is being said above the resurrection on the last day. In addition the wicked are also raised on this day.
    OK. But you might want to reconsider, for scripture says;

    Revelation 20:5; "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

    This ties neatly with 1 Corinthians 15:20-26.
    "20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming
    (the Christians and the Jews).
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
    (When the rest of the dead live again 1'000 years later)

    In time that is;
    1. Christ around 30 AD
    2. Christians and Jews 2'000 years later (for Hosea 6:2 says concerning the Jews -
      "1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
      2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."
    3. The "rest of the dead" 1'000 years later than this

  13. #13

    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Many of you didn't fully read my OP. I went to service last tonight, and Ed Hindson gave the sermon. He has written several books on this topic. I was interested, bought some of his books, and wanted to get other people's view. If he that far off the mark, he is one very charismatic preacher because I was sold on his views. I'll look through his literature (I have plenty of them now) and see if I can answer some of the questions posed.
    Just so you know, I likely agree with very much of what Ed Hindson has to say... it's just the Matthew 24:42-44 passage (in particular) where I would disagree. He believes it refers to the pre-trib rapture, while I believe that passage (and all "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come" passages) refers to His Second Coming to the earth. I believe all of the Olivet Discourse (except for Luke 21:12-24a which refers to the events of 70ad) are referring to His Second Coming to the earth, and not to our pre-trib rapture (which Paul was given to explain elsewhere--so I DO believe there's a pre-trib rapture ... I just don't believe Matthew 24 is referring to it, at all).

  14. #14
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    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Trib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Just so you know, I likely agree with very much of what Ed Hindson has to say... it's just the Matthew 24:42-44 passage (in particular) where I would disagree. He believes it refers to the pre-trib rapture, while I believe that passage (and all "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come" passages) refers to His Second Coming to the earth. I believe all of the Olivet Discourse (except for Luke 21:12-24a which refers to the events of 70ad) are referring to His Second Coming to the earth, and not to our pre-trib rapture (which Paul was given to explain elsewhere--so I DO believe there's a pre-trib rapture ... I just don't believe Matthew 24 is referring to it, at all).
    Ok, he cited other verses to strengthen the position on Matt: 24:42-44. Luke 21:36 says "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." And Rev 3:10 further drives the point home - "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."
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  15. #15

    Re: 7 Assurances of the Rapture (for a Pre-Troib Rapture)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    The rapture of the Church is taught in 1 Thess 4:15-18 "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

    This passage of Scripture delineates five stages to the rapture:

    1) The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout and with the sound of a trumpet
    2) The dead in Christ will rise first
    3) we who are alive (the church) and remain on the earth will be "caught up" together with them in #2 in the clouds
    4) we will meet the Lord, and
    5) we shall be with Him

    Paul also unveiled what he called a mystery pertaining to the rapture. In 1 Cor 15:51-52 he explained that some Christians would not sleep (die), but their bodies will be instantly transformed. I already cited the verse but here it is again:

    "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

    This is what will happen when the rapture takes place: Without warning (a thief in the night), the bodies of all believers who have died since the day of the Pentecost will suddenly be transformed into new, living, immortal, resurrected bodies. Even those whose bodies have long since decayed or whose ashes have been scattered out over the oceans will receive a new body. Then we enter the 7 years of Tribulation.
    1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9

    1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is probably the most commonly presented reading in the Bible forwarded to support a Pretrib rapture. However, it is a text that is so often misunderstood and therefore misinterpreted. In fact, there is a lot imputed into it that is frankly not there. There is a lot that is overlooked that should be carefully noted. We should therefore start our study by considering this important text.

    There is one thing that every true Bible student will be in agreement on and that is that this passage is a vivid record of Christ’s Coming and what accompanies it. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    One thing we should acknowledge as we commence our study into this text is that “the Coming of the Lord” is synonymous here with “the day of the Lord.” Moreover, this passage is exhorting the Church to remain watchful as this final day approaches. Man should prepare himself for this great and terrible day because it will spell the end of time, the end of the wicked and the end of all rebellion. The text thus warns the Church: let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”

    The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord Coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

    The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only Coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

    It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

    1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53

    1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53 also refers to the same gathering together of all the elect that ever lived, saying: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up[paradidōmi] the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” It is this all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

    The Greek simply reads:

    Christos Christ
    en at
    autos His
    Parousia Coming
    eita then
    telos the end

    As we can see above, the word rendered “cometh” in the King James Version doesn’t even exist in the original but was inserted by the translators. The Greek thus strictly interprets “Christ at his Coming, then the end.” It is that clear-cut. Also of note, the word eita translated ‘then’ in the King James Version also interprets ‘thereupon’. Strong’s Greek Lexicon defines the Greek word télos (which is interpreted “end” in this passage) as:

    1) end
    ..a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of
    ..the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of
    ..time)
    ..b) the end
    ....1) the last in any succession or series

    2) eternal
    ..c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
    ..d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose

    This is the end. There is no time after the end.
    Last edited by Diggindeeper; Jan 11th 2014 at 03:19 AM. Reason: Enlarged the type for easier reading.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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