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Thread: Chronological Vs. Parallel

  1. #61

    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    Do you view Revelation 1-3 in the light of Zechariah 4?
    I see parts of it in light of Zechariah 4, but what I see in revelation Ch.'s 1,2,3,4, and 5 is the revelation and revealing of Jesus Christ. The prophets had a call prophesy at the beginning of their prophetic career in which Heaven was revealed to them, Ezekiel had his call prophesy at the age of 14 for example. John had his at the twilight of his career.
    The vision that John seen is the unveiling of Jesus Christ-that is why the vision starts with the candlesticks and the symbols and illustrations used to describe Jesus are taken from the Tanakh in reference to God Almighty. The candlesticks were in relation to the 7 branched candlestick in the Tabernacle and the Temple. The candlestick was used to lighten the room so the High Priest could locate the veil from which the Glory of God was located.
    In the beginning of the vision we see the candlesticks first and then see the Glory of God described in terms from the Tanakh

    2 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

    Then we see the visions of Jesus entering Heaven being the quintessential day of Atonement



    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    Do you think there is a connection between Zech 4:3 and Rev 11:3-4?
    -Yes, but this spans the Bible and would take a page to illustrate

  2. #62
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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Do you see these being one and the same? If yes, then that makes this beast coming out of the sea, or IOW the bottomless pit, satan.
    No I don't. Rather you have the beast being like Satan.
    This for four reasons:
    1) Satan stands on the sand of the sea at the END of the previous verse (chapter). It isn't John standing there, he merely sees it:
    Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

    2) Satan gives his authority to the beast - this would be unnecessary if they were the same being:
    Rev 13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

    3) We have Satan, the beast and the false prophet ALL sending forth unclean spirits (which again suggests three different beings.)
    Rev 16:13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.

    4) The beast and the false prophet are placed into the LoF BEFORE Satan - a bit difficult to do if they are the same.
    Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    I could probably find other reasons too. What you may consider is that Satan for a long time is the heavenly counterpart to the beast, hence seven heads and ten horns, "as in heaven so on earth." IOW their "alliance" may be long running. What we aren't told is when the beast was placed in the Abyss.

  3. #63
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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by the Seeker View Post
    Where is the country of Gog, or the city of Magog, located today? They are gone, wiped off of the face of the earth. That country does not exist today, yet the prophecy in Ezekiel 38-39 remains unfulfilled. How is that possible?

    One possible answer is simply the people who are directly linked to the lands of Gog and Magog are going to fulfill the prophecies. That would place a bullseye on the Russians, since the scythians are descendants of Gog, and in turn, the Scythians became annexed to Russia, and now Russians are the descendants of Gog. This would mean that Russia is the Gog who will attack Israel when the nation is "at peace" and "without walls" like they do not have now.
    The connection between Scythians and Russians is tenuous at best. How do the Russians become "descendants" of Gog especially as they are NOT related to the Scythians. Also the descendants of the Scythians and those lands are NOT part of Russia. If you want to claim descendants then the Turkic peoples are the closest. Turkey's role maybe becoming clearer...?

  4. #64
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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaite View Post
    I see parts of it in light of Zechariah 4, but what I see in revelation Ch.'s 1,2,3,4, and 5 is the revelation and revealing of Jesus Christ. The prophets had a call prophesy at the beginning of their prophetic career in which Heaven was revealed to them, Ezekiel had his call prophesy at the age of 14 for example. John had his at the twilight of his career.
    The vision that John seen is the unveiling of Jesus Christ-that is why the vision starts with the candlesticks and the symbols and illustrations used to describe Jesus are taken from the Tanakh in reference to God Almighty. The candlesticks were in relation to the 7 branched candlestick in the Tabernacle and the Temple. The candlestick was used to lighten the room so the High Priest could locate the veil from which the Glory of God was located.
    In the beginning of the vision we see the candlesticks first and then see the Glory of God described in terms from the Tanakh

    2 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

    Then we see the visions of Jesus entering Heaven being the quintessential day of Atonement





    -Yes, but this spans the Bible and would take a page to illustrate
    Do you see any parallels of Rev 1-13-16 in the book of Ezekiel?
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

  5. #65

    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    Do you see any parallels of Rev 1-13-16 in the book of Ezekiel?
    I see the book of Ezekiel throughout the book of Revelation, in chapter 1, I see the description of Jesus from Ezekiel 1 and other sources

    Revelation 1:14-16

    dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

    Ezekiel 43:2
    "And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory"

    Ezekiel 1:24
    "When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings"

    Daniel 7:9
    “As I looked,

    “thrones were set in place,
    and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
    His clothing was as white as snow;
    the hair of his head was white like wool.

    Daniel 10:7-11
    "I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude"

    Just like Daniel fainted so did the Apostle John

    Daniel 10:8-11

    Therefore I was left alone when I saw this great vision, and no strength remained in me; for my 4vigor was turned to 5frailty in me, and I retained no strength. 9 Yet I heard the sound of his words; and while I heard the sound of his words I was in a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

    Revelation 1:7
    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last

    -The stars that Jesus has in His hand represent the faithful, and this is supported by the Bible

    Daniel 12:3
    Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

    This is in contrast to how Jude describes the unfaithful

    Jude 1:13
    They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

    Jesus is likened to shine like the sun in many places in the Bible, here is one example

    Acts 26:13-14
    About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
    15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
    ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied.

    -We also have the transfiguration and other passages showing the brightness of God
    -The Revelation of Jesus Christ is not the Revelation of computer chips,atomic bombs or Chinese armies-it is about Jesus Christ and to try to figure out revelation from our imaginations and newspapers will only lead to nonsense and will have no power.
    -The book of revelation uses the whole Bible to reveal itself, as the Bible is all about the Messiah Yeshua

  6. #66

    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

    12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me.And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

    1.John is in the same situation as the recipients of the letter of Revelation, he is persecuted on account of the scripture and the testimony of Jesus-the testimony of Jesus is His death burial and resurrection
    2.Notice John had to turn to see the voice speaking to him, when he turned he saw the golden lampstands. John would have been facing the table of shewbread before he turned to see the 7 lampstands. This shows John was in the Spirit.
    3. Jesus is among the 7 lampstands and this shows that Jesus dwells among and speaks thru the Churches.
    4.The 7 branched lampstand was what illuminated the way for the High Priest to enter the Holy of Holies, in revelation the lampstand is mentioned first and then John sees the "Son of Man" dwelling among them. Just like the illustration of the candlestick in the Temple, the Church illuminates the Glory of God.
    -If you are to combine all the illustrations of Heaven, when John turned to see Jesus it would have looked like Jesus was walking on water.


    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
    -This is the Testimony of Jesus that the churches and John were being persecuted for, Jesus promises those who will seal their faith with their blood-Jesus holds the keys to death.
    -This is a foreshadowing of the later chapters of Revelation
    -John fell as though he was dead, and Jesus revives John with the same hand that holds the seven stars.



    19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

    To make this into atomic Bombs and statues coming alive may tickle the senses, but it has no power and makes the message meaningless

  7. #67
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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaite View Post
    9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

    12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me.And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

    1.John is in the same situation as the recipients of the letter of Revelation, he is persecuted on account of the scripture and the testimony of Jesus-the testimony of Jesus is His death burial and resurrection
    2.Notice John had to turn to see the voice speaking to him, when he turned he saw the golden lampstands. John would have been facing the table of shewbread before he turned to see the 7 lampstands. This shows John was in the Spirit.
    3. Jesus is among the 7 lampstands and this shows that Jesus dwells among and speaks thru the Churches.
    4.The 7 branched lampstand was what illuminated the way for the High Priest to enter the Holy of Holies, in revelation the lampstand is mentioned first and then John sees the "Son of Man" dwelling among them. Just like the illustration of the candlestick in the Temple, the Church illuminates the Glory of God.
    -If you are to combine all the illustrations of Heaven, when John turned to see Jesus it would have looked like Jesus was walking on water.


    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
    -This is the Testimony of Jesus that the churches and John were being persecuted for, Jesus promises those who will seal their faith with their blood-Jesus holds the keys to death.
    -This is a foreshadowing of the later chapters of Revelation
    -John fell as though he was dead, and Jesus revives John with the same hand that holds the seven stars.



    19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

    To make this into atomic Bombs and statues coming alive may tickle the senses, but it has no power and makes the message meaningless
    The observation about John having to turn to see Jesus because he was facing the table of shewbread is a nice little gem. It's one of those things I am looking for when reading your perspective.

    Bless you sister
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

  8. #68
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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaite View Post
    [/COLOR]To make this into atomic Bombs and statues coming alive may tickle the senses, but it has no power and makes the message meaningless
    So what you are saying is that you cannot possibly understand the significance of Revelation 17-18. The subjects matter there is not Jesus Christ the person, but God the Father as Judge. Babylon will be destroyed. Let me say it this way, Rome will be destroyed, and no one will ever see it again, because a pope is going to become the false prophet for the "sake of the church". Since people will be looking for the "church" for guidance when the Beast attacks Jerusalem, the pope will be in the perfect position to lead the "church" astray, calling the Beast God and performing miracles that would convince the average Joe.
    Here is the verses that you say are meaningless, and the other evidence since I am convinced that you, karaite, did not follow up on the research that I had suggested. So, here we go.

    Revelation 17:15-18
    Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    This is a riddle that is so easy, no one will get it. Who is the prostitute? Verse 18 says that the prostitute is the city that rules over the kings of the earth. There was only one city that had that designation back in John's day. Rome. Rome will be stripped bare by the Beast and his goons, and then destroyed by fire. Out of the multitudes, the city ill ride on top of the Beast until the Beast tires of her and will destroy her. That is why Rome still exists today. God has a special reward for the inhabitants of that bloody city. He will remember her sins, and will allow the Beast to destroy her. This is why He is allowing the Great Tribulation to happen in the first place. Verse 17 tells us that God has allowed this to happen in order for the Beast to do God's will by destroying Rome.

    Then we go to chapter 18.

    Revelation 18:21
    Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

    With such violence
    the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
    never to be found again.




    Nuclear bomb test.


    Both the rock and the bomb show the same effects on water, as a rock kicks up water into the air while the point of impact ripples from the force of the water hitting the surface of the water. In the same vein, we have the exact same effect, but with fire in the Nuclear bomb tests. It is a nuclear bomb that God gave John a description of when He told him that the Beast will burn his city by fire and that fire will look like water when a giant millstone hits it.

    This all makes sense to historians and people who have taken notes as to the many, many instances of the RCC doing exactly what God did not want us to do, which is start wars, among many horrible things, (Spanish inquisition anyone?) For those looking to see Jesus in those scriptures, you do see Him, but you do not want to see Him in that light. That is reserved for the wicked, and this is written as a testimony to the wicked, so that they will repent before it is too late.

    So please, before you trash my "Atomic Bomb" theory, you might want to check out not only the verses that I have provided, but also the videos as well. It does make sense, even if you, karaite, do not want it to.

    Besides, I do not wish to further derail this thread, since it is bout parallels versus chronology. I only showed this example to show how parallels work in Revelation. They are there to further reveal more details about certain events, like the Great Tribulation and it's aftermath. Revelation 11-20 shows us the major spiritual and literal events that precede the Great Tribulation. Chapter 12 shows us why there has to be a Great Tribulation. Chapter 13 introduces us to the Antagonist's main cohorts, and tells us some of the things that they will do to earn his trip to the Lake of Fire. Chapter 14 tells us of the first day of the Great Tribulations, the main principles who will be proclaiming their messages during the Great Tribulation, and the fates of all who take the Beast's mark. Chapter 14 also foreshadows the raptures of the righteous and wicked. Chapter 15 tells us of the people who die during the Great Tribulation. Chapter 16 shows us the end of the Great Tribulation, complete with the first of many plagues that will be inflicted onto those who wear the Mark of the Beast, a hint as to the exact time in which the Lord will return to collect us, and a foreshadowing of the destruction of the city that the Beast called his own. Chapter 17 tells us more details about that city, the Beast himself, and he and his goons plans for that city in the end. Chapter 18 tells us of what the people who fled her will be saying while on ships witnessing her destruction. In it includes the exact details of how the Beast will destroy his city. Chapter 19 shows his end as well as the opening of the gates of heaven and the revealing of the Word of God, who will destroy every king, president, and political leader in the world, all in one place.

    Parallels litter each and every one of those chapters, and that is what I am focused on in this thread. The parallels further brings clarity to the prophecies not only contained in this book, but others in both the Old and New Testaments. They do not introduce foreign concepts, rather they clarify prophecies that were thought to be fulfilled in the future, and places them into places where they shall be fulfilled. (Zechariah 14:1-5, Revelation 12; 14:1-5 connection for one).

  9. #69

    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    There is only one people called a harlot in the bible and it was covenant israel, and this was repeated time and time again by the prophets before the first exile.
    This time the harlot sat on Romes lap and cried out "we have no King other than Caesar" and they begged for Caesar to kill the One who gave them the Covenant-and continued to reject Him and those loyal to God.
    The Harlot who sat on Romes lap was then destroyed by her lover.

    The problem lies with not understanding the reason for prophesy-it is to encourage the faithful in times of trouble-it tackles the situation facing the faithful and does it in a way that it is useful for the faithful of all generations.That is why you will read of a prophesy that tackles a certain historic problem and uses generic judgement language in dealing with the situation-God will be victorious over all those who oppose Him in all situations and circumstances, right up to the end. (Zephaniah 1 is a good example, or the prophesy against Babylon is another)
    Combine that message with Apocalyptic language and authors who want to make a buck playing fast and loose with the Bible and you have a real mess.
    I am sorry but youtube or newspapers is not how I study the Bible-more is required of you than that-you are required to be a faithful steward of the Bible and not enable those who exploit it.
    There is a commandment not to bear false witness against a brother-and this is what you have done by accusing a Christian organization of being a beast/antichrist with no warrant to do so other than disagreement and a fertile imagination.

  10. #70

    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by the Seeker View Post
    So what you are saying is that you cannot possibly understand the significance of Revelation 17-18. The subjects matter there is not Jesus Christ the person, but God the Father as Judge. Babylon will be destroyed. Let me say it this way, Rome will be destroyed, and no one will ever see it again, because a pope is going to become the false prophet for the "sake of the church". Since people will be looking for the "church" for guidance when the Beast attacks Jerusalem, the pope will be in the perfect position to lead the "church" astray, calling the Beast God and performing miracles that would convince the average Joe.
    Here is the verses that you say are meaningless, and the other evidence since I am convinced that you, karaite, did not follow up on the research that I had suggested. So, here we go.

    Revelation 17:15-18
    Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    This is a riddle that is so easy, no one will get it. Who is the prostitute? Verse 18 says that the prostitute is the city that rules over the kings of the earth. There was only one city that had that designation back in John's day. Rome. Rome will be stripped bare by the Beast and his goons, and then destroyed by fire. Out of the multitudes, the city ill ride on top of the Beast until the Beast tires of her and will destroy her. That is why Rome still exists today. God has a special reward for the inhabitants of that bloody city. He will remember her sins, and will allow the Beast to destroy her. This is why He is allowing the Great Tribulation to happen in the first place. Verse 17 tells us that God has allowed this to happen in order for the Beast to do God's will by destroying Rome.

    Then we go to chapter 18.

    Revelation 18:21
    Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

    With such violence
    the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
    never to be found again.




    Nuclear bomb test.


    Both the rock and the bomb show the same effects on water, as a rock kicks up water into the air while the point of impact ripples from the force of the water hitting the surface of the water. In the same vein, we have the exact same effect, but with fire in the Nuclear bomb tests. It is a nuclear bomb that God gave John a description of when He told him that the Beast will burn his city by fire and that fire will look like water when a giant millstone hits it.

    This all makes sense to historians and people who have taken notes as to the many, many instances of the RCC doing exactly what God did not want us to do, which is start wars, among many horrible things, (Spanish inquisition anyone?) For those looking to see Jesus in those scriptures, you do see Him, but you do not want to see Him in that light. That is reserved for the wicked, and this is written as a testimony to the wicked, so that they will repent before it is too late.

    So please, before you trash my "Atomic Bomb" theory, you might want to check out not only the verses that I have provided, but also the videos as well. It does make sense, even if you, karaite, do not want it to.

    Besides, I do not wish to further derail this thread, since it is bout parallels versus chronology. I only showed this example to show how parallels work in Revelation. They are there to further reveal more details about certain events, like the Great Tribulation and it's aftermath. Revelation 11-20 shows us the major spiritual and literal events that precede the Great Tribulation. Chapter 12 shows us why there has to be a Great Tribulation. Chapter 13 introduces us to the Antagonist's main cohorts, and tells us some of the things that they will do to earn his trip to the Lake of Fire. Chapter 14 tells us of the first day of the Great Tribulations, the main principles who will be proclaiming their messages during the Great Tribulation, and the fates of all who take the Beast's mark. Chapter 14 also foreshadows the raptures of the righteous and wicked. Chapter 15 tells us of the people who die during the Great Tribulation. Chapter 16 shows us the end of the Great Tribulation, complete with the first of many plagues that will be inflicted onto those who wear the Mark of the Beast, a hint as to the exact time in which the Lord will return to collect us, and a foreshadowing of the destruction of the city that the Beast called his own. Chapter 17 tells us more details about that city, the Beast himself, and he and his goons plans for that city in the end. Chapter 18 tells us of what the people who fled her will be saying while on ships witnessing her destruction. In it includes the exact details of how the Beast will destroy his city. Chapter 19 shows his end as well as the opening of the gates of heaven and the revealing of the Word of God, who will destroy every king, president, and political leader in the world, all in one place.

    Parallels litter each and every one of those chapters, and that is what I am focused on in this thread. The parallels further brings clarity to the prophecies not only contained in this book, but others in both the Old and New Testaments. They do not introduce foreign concepts, rather they clarify prophecies that were thought to be fulfilled in the future, and places them into places where they shall be fulfilled. (Zechariah 14:1-5, Revelation 12; 14:1-5 connection for one).
    If Christians would stick to the Bible instead of gleaning their theology on the internet they would be a lot more enlightened.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaite View Post
    There is only one people called a harlot in the bible and it was covenant israel, and this was repeated time and time again by the prophets before the first exile.
    This time the harlot sat on Romes lap and cried out "we have no King other than Caesar" and they begged for Caesar to kill the One who gave them the Covenant-and continued to reject Him and those loyal to God.
    The Harlot who sat on Romes lap was then destroyed by her lover.

    The problem lies with not understanding the reason for prophesy-it is to encourage the faithful in times of trouble-it tackles the situation facing the faithful and does it in a way that it is useful for the faithful of all generations.That is why you will read of a prophesy that tackles a certain historic problem and uses generic judgement language in dealing with the situation-God will be victorious over all those who oppose Him in all situations and circumstances, right up to the end. (Zephaniah 1 is a good example, or the prophesy against Babylon is another)
    Combine that message with Apocalyptic language and authors who want to make a buck playing fast and loose with the Bible and you have a real mess.
    I am sorry but youtube or newspapers is not how I study the Bible-more is required of you than that-you are required to be a faithful steward of the Bible and not enable those who exploit it.
    There is a commandment not to bear false witness against a brother-and this is what you have done by accusing a Christian organization of being a beast/antichrist with no warrant to do so other than disagreement and a fertile imagination.
    So tell me, are you standing watch? Are you watching for the signs of His return? I am. I have learned what to watch for from the Bible. I am applying that knowledge to today's news. I will not be caught off guard. I will be ready when He comes. If that is a foreign subject to you, then grab a Bible and study up. I see things that have been written in the Bible eons ago happening right before my eyes. I would be a fool to ignore the obvious. It is not obvious to those who are not looking for the signs. These are not "signs" that I have made up.

    These are actual events that have actually happened. These events have patterns that no one has seriously looked into. I have. With the limited and sometimes biased news sources, I have seen the fact that with the many events that have happened in the last 4 years, mentally unbalanced people have gone into places that are supposed to be safe for children and adults, and inflicted violence against these people. These things happened in places of relative peace. I didn't make up these facts. If reality does not fit your theology, then something is wrong.

    I believe what I believe, and I KNOW why I believe what I believe. I will stand alone because of the FACT that I know why I believe what I believe. You can insult that if you want to, and that is your right. You will not, however, change facts. Will you be ready when He comes? Will you last that long? Will you remain faithful while undergoing the hells that are coming every Believer's way? I grew up in places where many fearful people would refuse to step foot into. That knowledge gained has given me a perspective and a resolve that will not be altered by anyone or anything. Things like "talking statues" that is found in the same book you are supposed to be reading are going to lead many people astray. Churches will betray you. People around you will stab you in the back. And I am not even talking about the Great Tribulation. Are you prepared for that? I am. You should be too. I hope that you are. Life is cruel, especially for people who have not acknowledged Jesus Christ as the Son of God. That cruelty causes those people to act in predictable ways. However, those predictable things are the detestable things that most churches and most Christians refuse to even think about. But that is what is coming. I say this not to scare you or anyone else. I am saying this so that you, along with everyone else, steel your resolve to be that witness of Jesus Christ. To be that Christian that stands until the end, whether it be your own lives or His return. I am prepared for both. We all need to be.

  12. #72
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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaite View Post
    There is only one people called a harlot in the bible and it was covenant israel, and this was repeated time and time again by the prophets before the first exile.
    This time the harlot sat on Romes lap and cried out "we have no King other than Caesar" and they begged for Caesar to kill the One who gave them the Covenant-and continued to reject Him and those loyal to God.
    The Harlot who sat on Romes lap was then destroyed by her lover.
    IOW you believe that this has already happened. Jerusalem being destroyed in AD 70 was the fulfilment of the destruction of the Harlot.
    You are wrong for two clear reasons (as well as many other reasons, but I will deal with your own posting for the reasons and not argue re. preterism):
    1) Who is called a harlot in the Bible? For you it is limited to Covenant Israel - yet you seem to agree that the focus of Revelation is Jesus. In turn the church is what is in view here and NOT Covenant Israel. The parallels seen in Revelation point out that just as Covenant Israel sat back and said because... so too the Church sits back and says because... IOW those who see the parallelism of Covenant Israel ONLY focus on the past and miss what the past parallels, which is the Church.
    2) Prophecy has multiple purposes, some is for encouragement for the immediate audience, some is for those to whom the events will affect. When Isaiah wrote about Cyrus, who came 150 years later, or Jesus who came 700 years later, those specific prophecies wouldn't make complete sense to the initial readership - IOW it wasn't written TO them, only FOR them. Revelation has partly written TO the 7 churches and what they specifically would go through, however other parts clearly are TO the rest of the church. Even if your assumption with regards to the harlot being Jerusalem, it would still mean that those verses in regards to coming OUT OF her would ONLY be relevant TO those who lived there and NOT relevant TO the seven churches.

    It is true that we need to understand the parallels, but they are to be applied to the New Covenant and NOT simply looked at as regards to the Old. That is treating the prophecy as irrelevant for the people of those seven churches. For them as for us it is about Jesus and the New. The Old parallels help us to grasp its meaning with regards to the New. Jude wrote about it, again using what happened BEFORE so that we may understand what is to come AFTER.

    Personally I am NOT convinced it is Rome, nor even the RCC, because at the time of writing Revelation the RCC didn't exist in Rome and the Harlot therefore wasn't the fledgeling church that was there. IOW it isn't solely about which place would make sense at the time, but ALSO about what matches when these things unfold. We need to grasp the ORIGINAL meaning within the context and then see where that leads us.

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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    If Christians would stick to the Bible instead of gleaning their theology on the internet they would be a lot more enlightened.
    Evidence instead of commentary would be sufficient in countering what I have written. I take it that since you have no evidence refuting my claim, that you are merely getting in that last word snipe. Do you feel better? If I am wrong, prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by karaite
    Combine that message with Apocalyptic language and authors who want to make a buck playing fast and loose with the Bible and you have a real mess.
    I am sorry but youtube or newspapers is not how I study the Bible-more is required of you than that-you are required to be a faithful steward of the Bible and not enable those who exploit it.
    There is a commandment not to bear false witness against a brother-and this is what you have done by accusing a Christian organization of being a beast/antichrist with no warrant to do so other than disagreement and a fertile imagination.
    Karaite, if this is my imagination, prove it. Sniping is not proving anything, and it kills the productivity that I am attempting to create here. People need to see things like what I am presenting. They also need to see credible dissension, so that more people can comment on this issue, and the chattering will increase. That is why I am here, to stimulate conversations for the churches worldwide. And why not? I am not asking you or anyone else to believe what I am saying. I am merely asking you to consider what I am writing, and do the research yourself. If I am wrong, show your evidence, and do not dismiss my theories as the imaginations of a child. I would remind you of something that Jesus Christ said Himself.

    Matthew 11:25-26
    At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

    One thing about little children that people need to take notice to. Little children believe their parents because they do not know how to do anything else. Good parents know this and great parents make sure that their children's faith are shattered by anything. That wold mean that fairy tales like the tooth fairy and Santa Clause would have no place in these people's houses. Children believe what they are told, whether it is the truth or not. God wants us to do the same thing with His Words. He wants us to see what He is telling us, by honestly reading the words as they were originally written, not tainted by the philosophies of individuals. If the translators translated the scriptures without throwing their bias into the Word, then the pages of that Bible contain the whole and honest truth. We have to many copies and too many people with their own philosophies interpreting scripture according to their philosophies, or camps.

    By reading scriptures from an untainted Bible is how one becomes enlightened. In order to do that, people who are in these camps need to do the following:

    1. They are just as guilty as the people they are arguing against when they make their arguments
    2. Everyone has a Bias
    3. The truth is found in the actual scriptures themselves.

    When those things are realized, then the search for the truth can actually begin. Since it is going to take a long time for people to understand those three things I just wrote above, the next best thing is to stimulate conversations by showing what I believe and why I believe it. Your insults without evidence is doing nothing but getting in the way of people who have read this from asking questions and drawing their own conclusions. So, if you are going to disprove my theories. then evidence is needed. Provide some, and the conversation can continue. Label me a child, and I will thank you for it.

    And I am not accusing the RCC of anything right now. I am merely telling you whom I have identified as the most probable candidate for the position of False Prophet, the mouthpiece of the Beast. If the RCC is destroyed by the Beast before he destroys Rome, then I will admit that I am wrong. Until then, I will continue to show evidence while you keep on calling my evidence my imagination, like newspapers, Youtube and such. That is your right. I have the right to show what I believe and show my evidence, even if you do not agree with the sources. Am I wrong? Disprove it by showing evidence.

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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by the Seeker View Post
    And I am not accusing the RCC of anything right now. I am merely telling you whom I have identified as the most probable candidate for the position of False Prophet, the mouthpiece of the Beast. If the RCC is destroyed by the Beast before he destroys Rome, then I will admit that I am wrong. Until then, I will continue to show evidence while you keep on calling my evidence my imagination, like newspapers, Youtube and such. That is your right. I have the right to show what I believe and show my evidence, even if you do not agree with the sources. Am I wrong? Disprove it by showing evidence.
    I gave some reasons above for NOT thinking it is the RCC. What we need to rightly divide is that the Harlot is a system as well as a place. Some references thus deal with the system, whereas others deal with her as a place.
    Also the Vatican isn't within the Rome of John's day, but outside. Today it also isn't part of Rome though I think it is entirely within that City, yet still not part of the seven hills - it is in fact the 9th or 10th. But this moves the discussion away from Aviyah's original point of the thread in regards to parallels.
    It seems both of us don't see that 7 seals being parallels to the 7 trumpets which don't parallel the 7 vials. I agree that the details show them to be different, some potentially even contradictory.

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    Re: Chronological Vs. Parallel

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakeros View Post
    I gave some reasons above for NOT thinking it is the RCC. What we need to rightly divide is that the Harlot is a system as well as a place. Some references thus deal with the system, whereas others deal with her as a place.
    Also the Vatican isn't within the Rome of John's day, but outside. Today it also isn't part of Rome though I think it is entirely within that City, yet still not part of the seven hills - it is in fact the 9th or 10th. But this moves the discussion away from Aviyah's original point of the thread in regards to parallels.
    It seems both of us don't see that 7 seals being parallels to the 7 trumpets which don't parallel the 7 vials. I agree that the details show them to be different, some potentially even contradictory.
    Let's start with the obvious.

    1. You are correct in mentioning that the RCC did not exist back then.
    2. You are correct in the fact that I do not see parallels within the seven seals, trumpets, and vials, (bowls). They are chronological events.
    3. You are correct in the fact that this is derailing the thread, which was not my intention.

    Now, as far as Rome is concerned, the Vatican did not have any power of its own until after Constantine ordained it. It is a creation of the state of Rome which merged the basic tenants of Christianity with other portions of other cultures around the world that does not directly contradict the scriptures. That is how Christmas came into being. As Rome fell back then, the Vatican's power grew. Even today, when the world thinks about Christianity, it is the Vatican, which is in Rome, that people around the world view is the "capital of Christianity". So, if someone wanted to rid the world of Christianity, and he is a not Christians himself, he is going to attack the Vatican. That would mean that the Vatican will undeniably become a target after Jerusalem is laid to waste. What will the pope who is "in office" then do? Will he stand with the strength of 1000 men and proclaim that he would rather die than serve an apostate like the Beast? You may be convinced that he may be, but I am not. The phrase, "power corrupts", applies to that position. There have been known to be "black popes", or popes who were purely evil, that have sat in that position. To think that the pope is incorruptible is the work of a very active imagination. The pope is merely a man, and people need to understand that.

    The Vatican has been holding on to the power that they had gained from Constantine since then, and have carried out atrocities that would make the Roman Emperors proud. In that regard, the Vatican is the place that houses the power of the Roman Emperors, since Constantine gave them his blessing and made the Roman Catholic Church the official religion of Rome. If this is true, then that is another reason why the Vatican is a target when the Beast is done with Jerusalem. You are correct in mentioning that the RCC was not even around when John was alive at that time. There is one question that I feel that no one has asked. If Jesus had a message for the seven churches in the Asia Minor, why did he not have John write to Rome, where Christianity was supposed to be flourishing under the nose of government oppression?

    Moreover, the Vatican has led many people to their senseless deaths. From having friars sell chicken bones that is supposed to be the healing items, to putting holes in people's heads, telling them that they need to bleed out their illnesses. And this is the very basic of the sins of Rome. If I were to create a list, I would have to publish it not as a post, but a book, a big one. There is a reason why the founding fathers of the United States of America talked extensively about the separation of the church and state. The RCC is why. King George and the Anglican church is another. That city has witnessed more believers being killed than any other city in the world, before Moscow in the early 20th century. I do believe that a time is coming when Rome's sins will be remembered, and that city will be removed from the face of the earth.

    I believe that the whoever is the pope at that point will succumb to the power that Satan will be offering him through the Beast. That power will be given in exchange for the continuation of the existence of the RCC. From there, the Beast, pleased with his False prophet, will move in, claiming Rome to be his own city, fulfilling Daniel 9:24 & 27. When the time for his kingdom to come to an end, he will destroy her, leaving her as a pile of unusable waste. It will never be inhabited again. This is the conclusion I had reached after combining all of the possible things that I believe that the Beast will attempt to do in order to get the entire world to worship him as though he is a god. I am not accusing the RCC of privately sponsoring the revival of the Beast. I am only saying that people who mistaken the pope for a deity is going to be terribly disappointed.

    The seven hills are the key for me. The fact that Babylon is referenced by the portion of a song that Romans sang back in those days, "the seven hills of Rome", lets me know what city would fit that description. I could be wrong, but that's where my timeline has led me to. We can continue this conversation if you wanna start a new thread, because I do not want to derail this thread anymore than I already have.

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