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Thread: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why not?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    The OT passages that promise this relate to old covenant promises pertaining to old covenant Israel, not NT Christ-rejecting Israel.
    This then is the problem. You pretty much reject any prophecy in the OT and seem to make it about something that is no longer of any concern to God, and that God doesn't have to keep any of these promises any longer. Obviously then, you and I don't read the OT in the same way. I fully acknowledge what the NT says. But the Bible is not just the NT, It is the OT and NT combined. In some ways you remind me of Fenris, because when he speaks of the Bible, it only means the OT to him, and when you speak of the Bible, it only seems to be the NT to you, while some of the rest of us, it means both the OT and NT to us, and that we're trying to square one with the other in order to see the bigger picture. No doubt in my mind, if I wanted to pretend that OT is now obsolete, I would be willing to bet I would likely be coming to some of the same conclusions as you, since I would mainly be concluding everything based on what the NT has to say, and not also what the OT has to say as well. So I do at least understand why you conclude what you do.

  2. #62

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    You have totally sidestepped my questions again. Ezekiel has been fulfilled.
    Yes it has, when the faithful returned to the Land after the first exile under one banner and one country

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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    You have totally sidestepped my questions again. Ezekiel has been fulfilled.
    I haven't sidestepped your questions, at least not the one in regards to returning to the land. Maybe it's just me, but in Ezekiel 36 and 37 I fail to see where there is any criteria at all. It looks to me that God does this because God wants to do it, and not that it is somehow conditional. Maybe I missed it then, and there are some conditions set forth in those 2 chapters, and if so, and if you know what they are, it would be helpful if you pointed them out then.

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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaite View Post
    Yes it has, when the faithful returned to the Land after the first exile under one banner and one country
    So why aren't the faithful still there? Is God one that can't fully deliver what He has promised?

  5. #65

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    So why aren't the faithful still there? Is God one that can't fully deliver what He has promised?
    You have yet again ripped the historical context of the prophet out of the hands of the faithful in captivity who were about to hear the day after the visions of Exekiel 34-39 were given.
    You have muddled the lines of faith in God and the promises to Abraham to the unfaithful.
    1.God promised the captives and delivered to the faithful captives as they returned from exile united under God and there was no more Northern kingdom and Southern Kingdom.
    2.God delivered when the faithful returned and built and consecrated the Temple to honor Him, and this blessing was taken to its Zenith when Jesus came physically to that Temple.
    3.god delivered when He saved the faithful from the evil Haman and they destroyed his armies against all odds
    4. God delivered and blessed the faithful and punished the disobedient in AD 70-but you think the disobedient need to be blessed based on some end times paradigm

  6. #66

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I haven't sidestepped your questions, at least not the one in regards to returning to the land. Maybe it's just me, but in Ezekiel 36 and 37 I fail to see where there is any criteria at all. It looks to me that God does this because God wants to do it, and not that it is somehow conditional. Maybe I missed it then, and there are some conditions set forth in those 2 chapters, and if so, and if you know what they are, it would be helpful if you pointed them out then.

    Try reading and studying the Law of Moses-there are blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. The prophet Ezekiel is giving the blessings of the covenant to the faithful in exile under the curse.
    To state that the words of Ezekiel are unconditional is to state that Ezekiel was actually changing the Mosaic Covenant instead of enforcing and mediating it.
    It is God's will that they would remain faithful forever, but it is still conditional under the Mosaic Covenant.
    God will not turn His back on the faithful when they entered the Land, even though there was problems

    The faithful never stopped being there, that is why you have a 144,000, the faithful remnant of that became a great multitude.
    The testimony of Christ you see in Revelation is the same testimony of Christ you see in the Old Testament and the Law of Moses...I can prove it, and to reject the One who gave the Testimony of Christ in the New Testament is to reject the same Testimony of Christ in the Old Testamet...but you actually state that this same group that rejects the Testimony of Christ can be regathered to the Land, and the only way this can happen is thru faith in God

  7. #67
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaite View Post
    You have yet again ripped the historical context of the prophet out of the hands of the faithful in captivity who were about to hear the day after the visions of Exekiel 34-39 were given.
    You have muddled the lines of faith in God and the promises to Abraham to the unfaithful.
    1.God promised the captives and delivered to the faithful captives as they returned from exile united under God and there was no more Northern kingdom and Southern Kingdom.
    2.God delivered when the faithful returned and built and consecrated the Temple to honor Him, and this blessing was taken to its Zenith when Jesus came physically to that Temple.
    3.god delivered when He saved the faithful from the evil Haman and they destroyed his armies against all odds
    4. God delivered and blessed the faithful and punished the disobedient in AD 70-but you think the disobedient need to be blessed based on some end times paradigm
    I have a theory that just came to mind, this being in the event you are correct about Ezekiel 36 and 37, and I'm not. What happened once the faithful left the land at the time because of the events leading up to 70 AD? Wouldn't this then place them in a position to spread the gospel even further, the fact they are no longer just confined to this geographical region? And the fact there wasn't exactly tvs and radios back then to where the word of mouth can spread to more people outside of any said region. But even so, what I fail to see in Ezekiel 36 and 37 where it ever indicates yet another exile from the land after having been regathered there.

  8. #68

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Could you then provide me the links to the Scriptures that verify this, or at least tell me where to look.
    True Israel, the true Jews, the true children of Abraham are the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ. I would be open to show any of this to you.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  9. #69
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    Whilst Paul said, “God is able,” there is no New Testament evidence that it will be in an Old Testament nationalistic sense. The old covenant structure has been destroyed forever. Whilst God graciously gave Israel 40 years to get it, only the elect did. Apostate Judaism remained wedded to their useless abolished system. Today they still do you earn for it. This system has been destroyed forever and replace with an eternal covenant. One that will not be altered or tampered with.
    This is your opinion, and there is no scripture backing your claim.

    The Greek word dunatos means capable, possible, able, or could.
    There is no Greek words to whittle away the fact that the vine is the people of Israel's own vine. How can God do away with Israel when it is through Israel that He revealed Himself through? Paul states that the vine belongs to the Jews in verse 25. The disobedient have been removed until they repent of their sins and mourn over the fact that their ancestors have rejected their God's Son. That does not negate the fact that the vine in which the "natural branches" were broken off of belongs to the branches that have been pruned off. It's their vine. We, the believing Gentiles, are only grafted into the vine, which belongs to the Jews.

    This is a conditional promise which applies to everyone everywhere. There is a big difference between say God is able and God will. But nowhere in the NT does it say they will be returned to the land. The OT passages that promise this relate to old covenant promises pertaining to old covenant Israel, not NT Christ-rejecting Israel. Show me Scripture instead of your personal commentary.
    So these verses do not exist, according to you.

    Romans 11:25-27
    I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”[g]

    I would like to highlight the [g] here, since I post all of my scriptures from Biblegateway.com. This is a notation that the people who run the website felt compelled to share with all of us. Here is what that end note says:

    Romans 11:27 Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 (see Septuagint); Jer. 31:33,34
    -http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom+11&version=NIV

    These are references to Old Testament scripture that Paul is making a reference to. Let's take a look at one of these examples, Isaiah 59.

    Isaiah 59:20-21
    “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
    to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
    declares the Lord.
    21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

    Look at that, if the Jews repent, then a Savior will come to Zion, which is another word for Jerusalem, and complete another prophecy that is also found in the Old Testament, in Ezekiel 39, and other places throughout the the books of the Prophets. In Zechariah 14, we find that a remnant of Jerusalem will be saved from the hands of the nations that go to war against God. In Zechariah 12, we find these very same people doing exactly what every man is supposed to do when we realize what God has done to save us from Judgment, which should hit them harder since there scriptures told them in advance that the events in 70 AD and the event that launches the Great Tribulation were going to happen, and on top of that, they have Ezekiel 36 to look forward to, (might I mention verse 32 of that chapter). But wait, according to you, all of the prophecies of the Old Testament has been fulfilled, so you, the Gentile, have fulfilled Zechariah 12:10-14, among the other prophecies designated for ethnic Israel. You would not know the entire story because you have thrown away both the Old Testament and the people of Israel, something that scriptures show that God has never done. Unlike men, God has the backbone to honor His commitments.

    God has a promise He has made to Abraham, something that I have shown in my previous post, but needs to be repeated.

    Genesis 17:7-8
    I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.

    God did not quit that job of being the God of Israel, and saying that He has turned His back on His people is to ignore real world history. 1948 disproved the entire theory that was prevalent in the churches. Israel is not gone for good. The God of Israel has resurrected Israel. He has not rejected His people Israel, and it is not because they are special. It is because God honors His contracts! That makes the foundations of salvation after death even more credence, because the God who promised everlasting life is the same God that has brought back Israel from the dead.

    Then again, when one does not take the Old Testament into account, one never learns of these things. Instead, one would find themselves on the wrong side of the Israel debate.
    Last edited by the Seeker; Mar 2nd 2014 at 07:33 PM. Reason: fixing typo

  10. #70
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    True Israel, the true Jews, the true children of Abraham are the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ. I would be open to show any of this to you.
    The fact that you are open to showing me this, I am then open to trying to see it.

  11. #71
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I have a theory that just came to mind, this being in the event you are correct about Ezekiel 36 and 37, and I'm not. What happened once the faithful left the land at the time because of the events leading up to 70 AD? Wouldn't this then place them in a position to spread the gospel even further, the fact they are no longer just confined to this geographical region? And the fact there wasn't exactly tvs and radios back then to where the word of mouth can spread to more people outside of any said region. But even so, what I fail to see in Ezekiel 36 and 37 where it ever indicates yet another exile from the land after having been regathered there.
    Ezekiel 38:8-9
    8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. 9 You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.

    This is a direct prophecy concerning God, the chief prince of Magog. He and his armies will attack Israel in the future, at a time when the people were gathered from many nations, which had "long been desolate". 70 years may qualify as being a long time period. I believe 1877 years are a lot longer than 70. Since this is the case, then this prophecy carried the promise that Israel is going to be restored at a time that is not yet covered in the Old Testament at that time. So, Ezekiel knew of another possible exile from the land that those Jews in the future would have had to deal with. So, history tells us that he was right. After a long period in time when Jerusalem was desolate of its people, God brought them back to their homeland, again.

  12. #72

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by the Seeker View Post
    This is your opinion, and there is no scripture backing your claim.



    There is no Greek words to whittle away the fact that the vine is the people of Israel's own vine. How can God do away with Israel when it is through Israel that He revealed Himself through? Paul states that the vine belongs to the Jews in verse 25. The disobedient have been removed until they repent of their sins and mourn over the fact that their ancestors have rejected their God's Son. That does not negate the fact that the vine in which the "natural branches" were broken off of belongs to the branches that have been pruned off. It's their vine. We, the believing Gentiles, are only grafted into the vine, which belongs to the Jews.



    So these verses do not exist, according to you.

    Romans 11:25-27
    I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”[g]

    I would like to highlight the [g] here, since I post all of my scriptures from Biblegateway.com. This is a notation that the people who run the website felt compelled to share with all of us. Here is what that end note says:

    Romans 11:27 Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 (see Septuagint); Jer. 31:33,34
    -http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom+11&version=NIV

    These are references to Old Testament scripture that Paul is making a reference to. Let's take a look at one of these examples, Isaiah 59.

    Isaiah 59:20-21
    “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
    to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
    declares the Lord.
    21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

    Look at that, if the Jews repent, then a Savior will come to Zion, which is another word for Jerusalem, and complete another prophecy that is also found in the Old Testament, in Ezekiel 39, and other places throughout the the books of the Prophets. In Zechariah 14, we find that a remnant of Jerusalem will be saved from the hands of the nations that go to war against God. In Zechariah 12, we find these very same people doing exactly what every man is supposed to do when we realize what God has done to save us from Judgment, which should hit them harder since there scriptures told them in advance that the events in 70 AD and the event that launches the Great Tribulation were going to happen, and on top of that, they have Ezekiel 36 to look forward to, (might I mention verse 32 of that chapter). But wait, according to you, all of the prophecies of the Old Testament has been fulfilled, so you, the Gentile, have fulfilled Zechariah 12:10-14, among the other prophecies designated for ethnic Israel. You would not know the entire story because you have thrown away both the Old Testament and the people of Israel, something that scriptures show that God has never done. Unlike men, God has the backbone to honor His commitments.

    God has a promise He has made to Abraham, something that I have shown in my previous post, but needs to be repeated.

    Genesis 17:7-8
    I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and [U]I will be their God[/U].

    God did not quit that job of being the God of Israel, and saying that He has turned His back on His people is to ignore real world history. 1948 disproved the entire theory that was prevalent in the churches. Israel is not gone for good. The God of Israel has resurrected Israel. He has not rejected His people Israel, and it is not because they are special. It is because God honors His contracts! That makes the foundations of salvation after death even more credence, because the God who promised everlasting life is the same God that has brought back Israel from the dead.

    Then again, when one does not take the Old Testament into account, one never learns of these things. Instead, one would find themselves on the wrong side of the Israel debate.
    Of course repentance is the condition. Outside of repentance man (Jew and Gentile) are excluded from the true Israel. Through repentance man (Jew and Gentile) are part of true Israel.

    What is Zion/Sion in the NT?
    Who is a true Jew in the NT?
    Who is a citizen of true Israel in the NT?
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  13. #73
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    *Mod Note* I am not sure why there is BOLD PRINT YELLING in the thread but maybe we can tone it down a notch eh? I am not sure how getting upset solves anything.
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

  14. #74

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I have a theory that just came to mind, this being in the event you are correct about Ezekiel 36 and 37, and I'm not. What happened once the faithful left the land at the time because of the events leading up to 70 AD? Wouldn't this then place them in a position to spread the gospel even further, the fact they are no longer just confined to this geographical region? And the fact there wasn't exactly tvs and radios back then to where the word of mouth can spread to more people outside of any said region. But even so, what I fail to see in Ezekiel 36 and 37 where it ever indicates yet another exile from the land after having been regathered there.
    This is because you are not reading the words of Ezekiel in light of the Law of Moses of which Ezekiel is drawing upon. The exiles who came back to Jerusalem to celebrate on pentecost converted and spread the Good News across to the world.
    It has only ever been one church and one faith on both sides of the cross David...I will show you this very clearly if you are willing to listen.

  15. #75
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by the Seeker View Post
    Ezekiel 38:8-9
    8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. 9 You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.

    This is a direct prophecy concerning God, the chief prince of Magog. He and his armies will attack Israel in the future, at a time when the people were gathered from many nations, which had "long been desolate". 70 years may qualify as being a long time period. I believe 1877 years are a lot longer than 70. Since this is the case, then this prophecy carried the promise that Israel is going to be restored at a time that is not yet covered in the Old Testament at that time. So, Ezekiel knew of another possible exile from the land that those Jews in the future would have had to deal with. So, history tells us that he was right. After a long period in time when Jerusalem was desolate of its people, God brought them back to their homeland, again.
    Let me ask this in regards to Ezekiel 36 and 37 in order for me to determine whether we are on the same page or not. Where do you place the events in Ezekiel 36 and 37 chronologically in relation to what you posted in this post?

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