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Thread: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why not?

  1. #76
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by Karaite View Post
    This is because you are not reading the words of Ezekiel in light of the Law of Moses of which Ezekiel is drawing upon. The exiles who came back to Jerusalem to celebrate on pentecost converted and spread the Good News across to the world.
    It has only ever been one church and one faith on both sides of the cross David...I will show you this very clearly if you are willing to listen.
    I'm willing to listen, but whether I'm able to see it or not, that's a different story altogether.

  2. #77
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    What is Zion/Sion in the NT?
    The same as it is in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, Zion has several applications. One is the literal city of Jerusalem, and the other is the Kingdom of God.

    Who is a true Jew in the NT?
    According to Paul, the true Jew is the Jew who has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah. (Some prefer the name His mother gave Him, Yeshua.) The Gentile believer is the Gentile Believer, not a Jewish Believer.

    Who is a citizen of true Israel in the NT?
    See my second answer.

    Acts 13:16
    Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Fellow Israelites and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me!

    Paul mentions two groups of people here.

    1. Israelites, (Jews for those who have not read the Old Testament)
    2. Gentiles who worship God.

    Which one of these are you? Me, I am not an Israelite, but rather a Gentile worshiper of God.

    BTW, did God reject Israel? According to Paul, in Romans 11:1

    I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

    Hey look, Paul is making the reference to God's original promise to Abraham when talking about himself and God's position on Israel. He hammers that point home in the very next verse.

    Romans 11:2-5
    God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

    He even goes so far as to mention that God has a few people in reserve from the nation of Israel, so that even if most of the nation of Israel rejects Him, the ones that have been preserved by Him will continue to represent the nation of Israel who are descendants of Abraham. This is a direct reference to Elijah's experiences with God during King Ahab's reign. But to those who do not give the proper credence to the Old Testament would not understand what Paul was writing here. Without the Old Testament, Romans 11 would have no source material, and people would be free to interpret that chapter any way they please. Because of the Old Testament, the speculation to those who have read it know that there are limits. On top of that, we see that there is a huge remnant of Jews who have accepted Yeshua as their Messiah, since 144,000 virgin males from the the tribes of Israel will be taken from this earth to be at the Lord's side perpetually. (Revelation 14:1-5, Zechariah 14:5b).

    No one has the right to say that God has thrown away Israel. He is their God, as well as ours. He has obligations to them because of the covenant that He has made with Abraham, the same man in which Paul makes his reference to when he was answering the question, did God do away with Israel. He is known as "The God of Israel" in the Old Testament, and because Satan launched Europe against God's chosen people, He had to get over His grief and anger and save the people who has known only Him to be their God. It was not because they have repented of their sins. He brought them back so that they can repent of their sins. Most will refuse, and when the first day of the Great Tribulation happens, they will most probably be eliminated by the forces of the Beast. The ones who wise up and run through the Mountain Valley that will be available when this happens will end up repenting of their sins when they discover that Jesus Christ, the One their ancestors betrayed and had executed, is the One who will be the One who will have saved them from certain destruction. The mourning in that valley will be heard for miles around. This is the story that Zechariah 12, 14, Ezekiel 38-39, among other verses, tell us, those who bother to read the Old Testament. Again, when one does not give a place in their doctrines to the source material of all of the verses in the New Testament, errors are the result.

  3. #78

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Judgment on Wicked Counselors

    Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the East Gate of the Lord’s house, which faces eastward; and there at the door of the gate were twenty-five men, among whom I saw Jaazaniah the son of Azzur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah, princes of the people. 2 And He said to me: “Son of man, these are the men who devise iniquity and give wicked counsel in this city, 3 who say, ‘The time is not near to build houses; this city is the caldron, and we are the meat.’ 4 Therefore prophesy against them, prophesy, O son of man!”

    5 Then the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said to me, “Speak! ‘Thus says the Lord: “Thus you have said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind. 6 You have multiplied your slain in this city, and you have filled its streets with the slain.” 7 Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Your slain whom you have laid in its midst, they are the meat, and this city is the caldron; but I shall bring you out of the midst of it. 8 You have feared the sword; and I will bring a sword upon you,” says the Lord God. 9 “And I will bring you out of its midst, and deliver you into the hands of strangers, and execute judgments on you. 10 You shall fall by the sword. I will judge you at the border of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord. 11 This city shall not be your caldron, nor shall you be the meat in its midst. I will judge you at the border of Israel. 12 And you shall know that I am the Lord; for you have not walked in My statutes nor executed My judgments, but have done according to the customs of the Gentiles which are all around you.”’”

    13 Now it happened, while I was prophesying, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then I fell on my face and cried with a loud voice, and said, “Ah, Lord God! Will You make a complete end of the remnant of Israel?”

    God Will Restore Israel

    14 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 15 “Son of man, your brethren, your relatives, your countrymen, and all the house of Israel in its entirety, are those about whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Get far away from the Lord; this land has been given to us as a possession.’ 16 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.”’ 17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.”’ 18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them,[a] and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord God.

    1.Jerusalem and the Temple was still standing and the leaders still did not listen to the words of Ezekiel.
    2.Ezekiel asks God if He is just going to destroy everyone regardless of faith, and God promises to restore them to the Land just like Ezekiel 34-37 as it is the same historical context, but the conditions are shown in the highlighted verses-it is about faith and those who rebel against God their deeds would be on their own heads.
    3.This shows that the people would be restored but the conditions of the covenant still were in effect

  4. #79
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    The Lord confirms this in Matthew 22:1-14 with the parable of the wedding feast. Through the imaginary of a king and his subjects, He spoke of the invitation He extended to the Jewish nation – His intended guests. He showed how “they would not come” and how they made many pitiful excuses. In fact, “they made light” of the invitation “took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.” John 1:11 records, “He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” In fact, not only did they reject Him, they cruelly nailed Him to a tree. Since the cross the natural Jew has continued largely to rebel against God’s gracious provision for sin, Jesus Christ. The king being angry at this “sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.” The Lord was here speaking of AD70 and the destruction of the Israeli nation. Having rejected his offer, the king’s servants were instructed to go “into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.” This was a picture of the Gospel going out to the nations – those that had previously been aliens to the favour of God and salvation. Through the Jews wilful rejection of Christ, the Gentiles entered into God’s wonderful grace in their millions.
    Why do you conclude the parable of the wedding feast has anything to do with 70 AD? Admittedly, what you say makes sense in a way, but the fact the wedding feast is what the parable is about, how then can there be more than one wedding feast, one connected to 70 AD and one connected with the 2nd coming?

  5. #80

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Why do you conclude the parable of the wedding feast has anything to do with 70 AD? Admittedly, what you say makes sense in a way, but the fact the wedding feast is what the parable is about, how then can there be more than one wedding feast, one connected to 70 AD and one connected with the 2nd coming?
    I didn't relate it to AD70, but the earthly ministry of Christ.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  6. #81
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Let me ask this in regards to Ezekiel 36 and 37 in order for me to determine whether we are on the same page or not. Where do you place the events in Ezekiel 36 and 37 chronologically in relation to what you posted in this post?
    This is difficult because the wording is what gives you the key as to whether these prophecies are related or not. It is my opinion that the only way to truly see if they are connected is by analyzing the scriptures themselves.

    Ezekiel 36 tells us of the situation in which the Lord has spoken to Ezekiel. The time period is important in determining whether these scriptures are related or not. Ezekiel is at this point a priest without a temple to do His priestly things. He is in exile along with a number of Israelites. The first seven verses show that the God of Israel, in anger and jealous wrath, proclaims that the nations which speak ill against the nation Israel will also suffer scorn. From there, He promises that the people will be safely inhabited again.

    Admittedly, I am viewing these verses in light of the historic record. I am factoring in the fact that Israel suffered two exiles instead of one. That would be the Babylonian exile, and the just finished Roman exile of 70 AD. With this in mind, the next four verses can be viewed as either promises concerning the first exile or the second, since He has done this in both instances. He has placed Israel back in the land of Caanan twice, and they live in security, brought about by the United States Armaments that they had purchased since their revival. I have to highlight verses 13-15 for analysis.

    Ezekiel 36:13-15
    “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because some say to you, “You devour people and deprive your nation of its children,” 14 therefore you will no longer devour people or make your nation childless, declares the Sovereign Lord. 15 No longer will I make you hear the taunts of the nations, and no longer will you suffer the scorn of the peoples or cause your nation to fall, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

    This seems to point to some other time, one where Israel will never have to worry about the scorn of the nations. This seems to point to the time in which Jesus Christ returns and takes possession of Israel, and the Earth. My conclusion is that this prophecy has multiple fulfillment, two of which have already come to pass, with one more to go.

    The next few verses start another time when Ezekiel had the Word of God given to Him. He tells the Israelites that it is not for their sake in which God will have brought them back to their homeland, but because of whom He is. He takes His time to hammer that point home. The prophecy contained therein, if the event in Ezra 3 never happened, would be pointing to 1948. However, the mourning that God wanted the Israelites to show, the mourning that He told Ezekiel in chapter 43, of what would have happened if the Ezra 3 moment was handled differently, did not happen. The noise from Jerusalem was indeterminable, and the promises that God made with the condition that Israel would mourn after their sinful ways disqualified that from happening. So these verses also hold a dual fulfillment, one being after the Babylonian captivity, and the other is 1948.

    You see, when Israel was reestablished in 1948, God showed a pattern that began in the Babylonian captivity. Just like the first exile, it was a decree from a foreign nation that gave the Jews the ability to return to their homeland. He did this with Cyrus, and He did it again with the League of Nations. Just like the pattern that God is using to show His might to the nations in reviving Israel, God shows us another pattern of having prophecies in Ezekiel that have dual or even m ore than dual fulfillment, [that is including the worst day in Jerusalem's history, an event that is yet to come, (Matthew 24:15-22)].

    Onward to chapter 37. The first verse tells us that this is yet another encounter that Ezekiel has had with God. This time, verses 2-14 shows that Ezekiel is shown the valley of dry bones, and God shows him that He is powerful enough to cause a nation that was dead to be revived again. This is definitely a multiple fulfillment prophecy, since it already happened twice.

    And then along comes verses 15-28, which clearly point to one of the purposes for the Lord Jesus Christ to return to the earth, to be the David who will rule Jerusalem. This clearly holds a future fulfillment. These verses are a part of yet another encounter that Ezekiel has with God, in the same chapter. These verses point to the Messiah that the Jews are currently looking for, since this truly is the right time to look for Him, IMHO.

    I apologize that my answer is not short and simple, but it is my opinion that too many shortcuts through Bible study has already been done among some of the people of this forum. The best approach is the thorough one.

  7. #82

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by the Seeker View Post
    The same as it is in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, Zion has several applications. One is the literal city of Jerusalem, and the other is the Kingdom of God.
    Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. Isaiah 33:5-6 says, “The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with judgment and righteousness. And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.”

    With His victorious victory at the cross and His consequential rise to the true Zion in heaven, Christ fulfils this now in this current kingdom age.

    1 Peter 2:5-9 says of this building, “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture,Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.”

    Salvation has already come and the redeemed on earth and in heaven join in worship to the heavenly Sionian king – Jesus sitting upon David’s throne. Positionally, the believer is now seated in heavenly places – in the true Mount Zion. Why because Christ now reigns there on David’s throne. Those that have the “fear of the LORD is his treasure” and experience the “strength of salvation.” We have no need for this imaginary future millennium, this age fulfils everything heaven requires for its fulfilment.

    Hebrews 12:18 says, “For ye are not come (plural perfect active indicative) unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.”

    Hebrews 12:22 says, “But ye are come (plural perfect active indicative) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

    These highlighted references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

    According to Paul, the true Jew is the Jew who has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah. (Some prefer the name His mother gave Him, Yeshua.) The Gentile believer is the Gentile Believer, not a Jewish Believer. .
    Romans 2:25-29 says, if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ... For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit (pneuma).”

    A Jew today in God’s eyes is not physical but spiritual. Paul succinctly says, “he is a Jew, which is one inwardly.” Those that are born again, irrespective of nationality or color, are classed as true Jews.

    Paul explains in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the international trans-ethnic Church, For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

    Colossians 2:11-14 declares, ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

    Galatians 3:7-9 also says, “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

    Those who have come to Christ by simple faith are here identified as the true children of Abraham.

    See my second answer.

    Acts 13:16
    Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Fellow Israelites and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me!

    Paul mentions two groups of people here.

    1. Israelites, (Jews for those who have not read the Old Testament)
    2. Gentiles who worship God.

    Which one of these are you? Me, I am not an Israelite, but rather a Gentile worshiper of God.

    BTW, did God reject Israel? According to Paul, in Romans 11:1

    I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

    Hey look, Paul is making the reference to God's original promise to Abraham when talking about himself and God's position on Israel. He hammers that point home in the very next verse.

    Romans 11:2-5
    God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

    He even goes so far as to mention that God has a few people in reserve from the nation of Israel, so that even if most of the nation of Israel rejects Him, the ones that have been preserved by Him will continue to represent the nation of Israel who are descendants of Abraham. This is a direct reference to Elijah's experiences with God during King Ahab's reign. But to those who do not give the proper credence to the Old Testament would not understand what Paul was writing here. Without the Old Testament, Romans 11 would have no source material, and people would be free to interpret that chapter any way they please. Because of the Old Testament, the speculation to those who have read it know that there are limits. On top of that, we see that there is a huge remnant of Jews who have accepted Yeshua as their Messiah, since 144,000 virgin males from the the tribes of Israel will be taken from this earth to be at the Lord's side perpetually. (Revelation 14:1-5, Zechariah 14:5b).

    No one has the right to say that God has thrown away Israel. He is their God, as well as ours. He has obligations to them because of the covenant that He has made with Abraham, the same man in which Paul makes his reference to when he was answering the question, did God do away with Israel. He is known as "The God of Israel" in the Old Testament, and because Satan launched Europe against God's chosen people, He had to get over His grief and anger and save the people who has known only Him to be their God. It was not because they have repented of their sins. He brought them back so that they can repent of their sins. Most will refuse, and when the first day of the Great Tribulation happens, they will most probably be eliminated by the forces of the Beast. The ones who wise up and run through the Mountain Valley that will be available when this happens will end up repenting of their sins when they discover that Jesus Christ, the One their ancestors betrayed and had executed, is the One who will be the One who will have saved them from certain destruction. The mourning in that valley will be heard for miles around. This is the story that Zechariah 12, 14, Ezekiel 38-39, among other verses, tell us, those who bother to read the Old Testament. Again, when one does not give a place in their doctrines to the source material of all of the verses in the New Testament, errors are the result.
    You are looking solely at natural designations. But the Holy Spirit takes these natural titles and gives them a spiritual meanings in the NT. What is more, He shows that natural status means absolutely nothing any more. Natural Jewish heritage amounts to nothing. Men are saved exclusively by grace and not through race. There is no favour upon race any more.

    Peter outlines the same truth in Acts 10:34-36, when he witnessed with his own eyes the Gentiles receiving the Gospel of Christ, saying,I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all).”

    This passage is crystal clear in its meaning and explanation of how God views all nations, peoples and tribes equally today.The reading makes it clear: “God is no respecter of persons.” This is not strange or outlandish; it is the constant theme of the New Testament. The Gospel is no longer restricted to the physical race of Israel but it has been opened up to embrace all nations. This means that God doesn’t accept anyone based on their nationality, colour or status but rather on whether or not they fear Him. When it comes to salvation he looks at the inward rather than the outward. Them that fear him and walk righteously “in every nation” are now “accepted with him.” He is assuredly “Lord of all.” He has made all nations, tribes and kindreds the focus of His favour today. It is wrong to elevate one nation over another.

    The word interpreted “respecter” in the King James Version is the Greek word prosopoleptes which simply means: one exhibiting partiality. In fact the New King James Version renders this, “Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

    The New International Version similarly states, “Then Peter began to speak: "I now realise how true it is that God does not show favouritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.”

    He came to Israel first to fulfil Scripture; the sheep within that nation heard His voice. The Gospel was then widened out to the nations, where His sheep also have heard His voice and many have believed. Salvation has now come to embrace the Gentiles in an extraordinary way. Millions today have been brought into God’s great covenant of grace.

    Natural Jewishness

    I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

    Galatians 5:2 declares, if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

    Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

    Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  8. #83

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by the Seeker View Post
    You see, when Israel was reestablished in 1948, God showed a pattern that began in the Babylonian captivity. Just like the first exile, it was a decree from a foreign nation that gave the Jews the ability to return to their homeland. He did this with Cyrus, and He did it again with the League of Nations. Just like the pattern that God is using to show His might to the nations in reviving Israel, God shows us another pattern of having prophecies in Ezekiel that have dual or even m ore than dual fulfillment, [that is including the worst day in Jerusalem's history, an event that is yet to come, (Matthew 24:15-22)].

    Onward to chapter 37. The first verse tells us that this is yet another encounter that Ezekiel has had with God. This time, verses 2-14 shows that Ezekiel is shown the valley of dry bones, and God shows him that He is powerful enough to cause a nation that was dead to be revived again. This is definitely a multiple fulfillment prophecy, since it already happened twice.

    And then along comes verses 15-28, which clearly point to one of the purposes for the Lord Jesus Christ to return to the earth, to be the David who will rule Jerusalem. This clearly holds a future fulfillment. These verses are a part of yet another encounter that Ezekiel has with God, in the same chapter. These verses point to the Messiah that the Jews are currently looking for, since this truly is the right time to look for Him, IMHO.

    I apologize that my answer is not short and simple, but it is my opinion that too many shortcuts through Bible study has already been done among some of the people of this forum. The best approach is the thorough one.
    Does the Jews today possess their ancient borders (or anything close to it)?
    What was God's OT criteria for Israel being dispossessed from the land?
    What was God's OT criteria for Israel possessing/returning to the land?
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  9. #84

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Ezekiel 36:13-15
    “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because some say to you, “You devour people and deprive your nation of its children,” 14 therefore you will no longer devour people or make your nation childless, declares the Sovereign Lord. 15 No longer will I make you hear the taunts of the nations, and no longer will you suffer the scorn of the peoples or cause your nation to fall, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

    This was part of a vision given to Ezekiel the night before word was to reach the captives that jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed.
    Just like the curses of the Law showed the power and soveirnity of God, the blessings of the Law did the same.
    To use this as a proof text that the conditions of the Covenant are gone and points to another time because of this is to ignore the Law of Moses and to not understand the role of a prophet mediating the Law to those under it

  10. #85

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Karaite,
    You are forgetting grace.

    Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes: (i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob)
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past (Christians) have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    mercy -- grace -- for Israel -- just as it was for us.

    It will be God's doing, God's grace, not of themselves lest any man should boast, it will be mercy that changes the Jews and gives them a new heart.

    Ez. 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of the transgressions: BUT I WILL SAVE THEM OUT OF ALL THEIR DWELLINGPLACES, WHEREIN THEY HAVE SINNED, AND WILL CLEANSE THEM: SO SHALL THEY BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD.

    Ez. 36:32 Not for your sakes (the Jews) do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

    Ez. 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord.

    Romans 11:31 Even so have these (Jews) also now (even today) not believed, that through your mercy (Christians) they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, (Jews, Christians, heathens) that he might have mercy upon all.

    And then we can all celebrate together, and be grateful for what he has done in all of us!

  11. #86

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnymuldare View Post
    Karaite,
    You are forgetting grace.

    Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes: (i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob)
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past (Christians) have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    mercy -- grace -- for Israel -- just as it was for us.

    It will be God's doing, God's grace, not of themselves lest any man should boast, it will be mercy that changes the Jews and gives them a new heart.

    Ez. 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of the transgressions: BUT I WILL SAVE THEM OUT OF ALL THEIR DWELLINGPLACES, WHEREIN THEY HAVE SINNED, AND WILL CLEANSE THEM: SO SHALL THEY BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD.

    Ez. 36:32 Not for your sakes (the Jews) do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

    Ez. 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord.

    Romans 11:31 Even so have these (Jews) also now (even today) not believed, that through your mercy (Christians) they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, (Jews, Christians, heathens) that he might have mercy upon all.

    And then we can all celebrate together, and be grateful for what he has done in all of us!
    I am not forgetting grace, if you are to read the post exile prophets there were problems in regards to backsliding and trouble, and God told them not to worry to the FAITHFUL that He would stand beside them thru thick and thin, and we see this further with the remnant that followed Messiah, they spread thru the world and the UNFAITHFUL were exiled.

  12. #87
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    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnymuldare View Post



    Ez. 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord.

    Maybe it's me, but this alone seems to contradict what Christ accomplished at the cross. I would think Christ died for their sakes, for my sake, your sake, etc, yet this verse says God does not do this for their sakes, but does it for His holy name's sake. What is it then that God does for His holy name's sake?

    Ezekiel 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
    28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


    Unless I'm reading it wrong, isn't this what God does for them for His holy name's sake?

  13. #88

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I'm willing to listen, but whether I'm able to see it or not, that's a different story altogether.
    To state that people are gathered to the Land even under disobedience and rejection of God Himself does great damage to the Shema, the unity of God. This is going to be a bit long and the problem is that it is the thread of which the Bible is spun..so knowing which direction and fork to write down is a bit tough.

    Revelation 19:9-10
    Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.
    10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”


    -Most think that prophesy is telling the future, but this is not the whole truth
    -Prophesy is the "true saying of Christ" John is told the "true sayings of Christ" which is the "Spirit of prophesy"
    -The testimony of Jesus is the "Spirit" or "breath" of "prophesy" or God's Word
    -The vital LIFE of prophecy is "the Testimony of Jesus". "Prophecy" refers to the "true sayings of God," and not merely future predictions.

    Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.
    -The Angel tells John that these are the true sayings of God

    10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

    -John dropped down and started to worship the Angel because the Angel had the True words of Jesus, the Angel put himself on the same level as John as the true words of Jesus were the core of worship.
    -The angel is speaking as though "prophecy" is the "true sayings of God" which John heard and over which he became so enamoured. It all pointed back to Jesus.

    You need to know what the Testimony of Christ is actually referring to:
    Revelation 1:1-2
    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

    Revelation 1:9
    I, John, both[a] your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Revelation 12:17
    And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    -The Word of God and the Testimony of Christ are mentioned side by side, this is trying to tell us that the "Word of God" is the "Testimony of Jesus" and the "true sayings of Christ"
    -You cant know the "Word of God" or the "True saying of God" without having the "testimony of Jesus"
    -Read Revelations 19:9-10 over again and it will make sense. Seventh day Adventists believe the "Testimony of Jesus" is their prophet Ellen Gould White...are you starting to see why our Church is compiled of JW's and SDA's-with the sharp sword of the Word, those faithful to God and His Word will leave this lie.

    The book of Revelation is mostly made up of terms and conditions from the Old Testament, this is vitally important as the book of Revelation goes back to the beginning and circles around the bible and the Old creation in order to give the New Creation in Messiah. It is all about Jesus Christ.

    God gives Jesus a book in Revelation 5 in order to give it to John so then he in turn can give it to the world.

    Revelation 5:6-7
    And I looked, and behold,[a] in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
    -The book of revelation is the "Testimony of Jesus Christ"
    -the whole Bible is the "Testimony of Jesus Christ" and "The true word of God" and that is why Revelation is made up of symbolism and imagery from the whole Bible...lets go a bit deeper

    Exodus 25:22
    And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel.
    -The Ark of the Testimony contained the Revelation of Jesus Christ-The 10 commandments summed up the whole Mosaic Covenant

    Exodus 31:18
    And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
    -The "Ark of the Testimony" housed the "Testimony of the Law of Moses"
    -lets see what was contained in the Ark of the Testimony

    The Manna
    Exodus 16:33-34
    And Moses said to Aaron, “Take a pot and put an omer of manna in it, and lay it up before the Lord, to be kept for your generations.” 34 As the Lord commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.

    -Manna was the bread of life from Heaven during the Exodus, and it tasted sweet like honey

    Exodus 16:31
    And the house of Israel called its name Manna.[a] And it was like white coriander seed, and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey.

    John was given the scroll that tasted sweet as honey...

    Revelation 10:9-11
    So I went to the angel and said to him, “Give me the little book.”
    And he said to me, “Take and eat it; and it will make your stomach bitter, but it will be as sweet as honey in your mouth.
    10 Then I took the little book out of the angel’s hand and ate it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth. But when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter. 11 And he[a] said to me, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.”

    -John was given the "Testimony of Jesus" which was the "true sayings of God"
    -This is the same book that Jesus took from God in Revelation 5

    Proverbs teaches the same thing, the Word is Wisdom

    My son, eat honey because it is good,
    And the honeycomb which is sweet to your taste;
    14 So shall the knowledge of wisdom be to your soul;
    If you have found it, there is a prospect,
    And your hope will not be cut off.


    Jesus referred to Himself as the Manna from heaven which gives life

    John 6:49-50
    Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.

    Both Ezekiel and John were told to eat the sweet revelation of Jesus

    Ezekiel 3:3
    And He said to me, “Son of man, feed your belly, and fill your stomach with this scroll that I give you.” So I ate, and it was in my mouth like honey in sweetness.

    -Just like John he was told to spread the true Words of God
    Ezekiel 3:4
    Then He said to me: “Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them
    John was told to do the same thing after he ate the scroll. he was told to prophesy to the whole world.

    When John and Ezekiel ate the "Testimony of Jesus" it caused them to prophesy "God's true Words"

    To think that there is a different distinction for this group or that group based on a different Testament is not correct at all, to reject Jesus is to reject the "true Word of God" of both the Old and New Testimonies it is not only about Jesus-it is Jesus giving the "testimony"

  14. #89

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Karaite,
    He is going to save Israel by defending them against their enemies in the day of the Lord, and all their enemies, the heathens, are going to see it happen. He will put his foot down on Mount Zion where they have been regathered, and then He will speak with the two edged sword that proceeds out of his mouth. At that point every so called prophet is going to be speechless, and God will have mercy on all -- including Israel. It won't be because they have been so great, it is because he is great and he has a plan for all of us.

    God will get the glory for being merciful upon ALL of us and we will all be able to celebrate what he has done for us. It's salvation all over again.

    It will be a gift from God, not of any works that we have done, grace by God alone lest any man should boast. God gets all the credit for saving us.

  15. #90

    Re: Is the State of Israel that exists today the one Scripture speaks of? Why or why

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnymuldare View Post
    Karaite,
    He is going to save Israel by defending them against their enemies in the day of the Lord, and all their enemies, the heathens, are going to see it happen. He will put his foot down on Mount Zion where they have been regathered, and then He will speak with the two edged sword that proceeds out of his mouth. At that point every so called prophet is going to be speechless, and God will have mercy on all -- including Israel. It won't be because they have been so great, it is because he is great and he has a plan for all of us.

    God will get the glory for being merciful upon ALL of us and we will all be able to celebrate what he has done for us. It's salvation all over again.

    It will be a gift from God, not of any works that we have done, grace by God alone lest any man should boast. God gets all the credit for saving us.
    Again to be regathered to God in the Land is about faith, so you must believe that they (unfaithful) must have another avenue to God other than Jesus.
    This grace you talk about must come from having no faith in Jesus-it is just that simple Bunny

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