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Thread: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

  1. #16

    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    I am late to the party, but..... Since WPM opens up the debate with this:



    I quit reading the debate right there, I detected a serious error. It is NOT clear at all that Paul means "all mankind" as WPM states. When Paul says "all men" he means all men, and when he says "us" he means believers (the many who shall be saved). WPM rather conveniently left off the first bit of verse 10 which says:

    10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

    The Beginner points out this error in more detail. Such a serious mistake is a ship sinker so early on in the debate. All are judged, but that fact is not at all to support the idea that all are judged in the same single occasion. Hard not to party for a slam dunk for the pre-mil side.

    (will try to read through more of the debate later, see if there are any other nuggets in there from either side)

    All the best

    A
    LOL. When I reminded Beginner: just because 100% of what we find in the epistles was written to the churches does not mean that only relates to the righteous he did a complete U-turn and changes his position. He suddenly accepts a literal interpretation that statements like “we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ,” “every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess” and “every one of us shall give account of himself to God” refer to the wicked and the righteous.

    Paul was actually preaching from Isaiah 45:22-25 about a general judgment: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.”

    All mankind will be forced to bow before the King of glory when Jesus Comes. The righteous shall be “justified, and shall glory.” the wicked “shall be ashamed” on that day but
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  2. #17
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    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Sure, I don't argue that ALL-MEN will not stand before God and be judged, but the point is that Paul's discourse in this case is speaking of a segment of the ALL, he's simply talking about BROTHERS. BROTHERS are included in ALL-MEN, no?

    BROTHERS are NOT people of other faiths, but like-minded people of the Christian-faith.

    Jesus related all men as NEIGHBORS, but not all men as BROTHERS.

    You would not approach a pagan and say hello and greet them as a BROTHER-IN-CHRIST, would you?
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  3. #18

    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    The first resurrection is chiefly for the 2 witnesses who have the Spirit of Elijah and Elisha e.g., John the Baptist & the Son of Man. This is the true Church, these rare men see the inward Spirit with the outward & piercing eye of Satan, they are Spirit in Satan's clothing, they are doves in the midst of serpents, they are sheep in the midst of wolves. By seeing, knowing the Spirit they are born again while killed by the Law the which describes how the world works, is a theory of entropy i.e. explains how sin grows. When they die they wake up in the Temple i.e., in the Son of God. Then they come back here as the 7 angels & are now ruling the nations with a rod of iron. Unto them the 2nd coming is that of the Son of God. Unto them who are vessels of clay & are dashed to shivers, the 2nd coming is that of the Son of Man when they dream again the very nightmare they fell asleep in i.e., are resurrected in the flesh. These keep crucifying Christ, these have no rest.

  4. #19
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    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Antipas View Post
    The first resurrection is chiefly for the 2 witnesses who have the Spirit of Elijah and Elisha e.g., John the Baptist & the Son of Man. This is the true Church, these rare men see the inward Spirit with the outward & piercing eye of Satan, they are Spirit in Satan's clothing, they are doves in the midst of serpents, they are sheep in the midst of wolves. By seeing, knowing the Spirit they are born again while killed by the Law the which describes how the world works, is a theory of entropy i.e. explains how sin grows. When they die they wake up in the Temple i.e., in the Son of God. Then they come back here as the 7 angels & are now ruling the nations with a rod of iron. Unto them the 2nd coming is that of the Son of God. Unto them who are vessels of clay & are dashed to shivers, the 2nd coming is that of the Son of Man when they dream again the very nightmare they fell asleep in i.e., are resurrected in the flesh. These keep crucifying Christ, these have no rest.
    could you show me support in scripture as to your interpretation of the "chiefly" resurrection and why would they be the only one's resurrected..I believe that I am part of the true church and not part of a false church

  5. #20
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    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    In that it appears the thread quoted below is about to die out....

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    Your faulty conclusion comes from your ignorance of Amil, not any weakness in that school of thought.
    Still waiting for the strength of an argument that explains how someone can have the first resurrection (whatever it is) during the millennium (supposing it began at the Cross/Ascension -or- is that where it began?) when Rev 20:5 clearly says no one can obtain it after the millennium begins.

    And do you realize that it is irrational to refute a substantive disagreement with your view, with a flippant accusation I am simply "ignorant" of your view? No, I -disagree- with it.

    I asked a series of questions that were to help me understand the view, and I was given the type of reply above.... The indignant stance is absolutely unhelpful. You clearly have time .... yet no more patience as it pertains for a quality response.


    * There is one primary way I see to approach the disagreement at this point. As it pertains to resurrection we need to define death. Specifically: the cause of death. Without the right view of the preceding death, resurrection cannot make sense, do you agree? The death is caused by the Beast.

    1) Supposing the portion of the first-resurrection that raised the saints to 'new life' in Christ to be defined only by their faith in HIS resurrection, accordingly their own deaths would be defined as: lack of faith. This would be like: "dead in sin". [Eph 2:1] [Col 2:13] [2 Cor 5:17]

    2) Based on supposition #1, the "rest of the dead" are those who are in unbelief. Therefore when the rest of the dead "come to life" what kind of life are they raised to? Whatever the second resurrection is... it contains a group of people who come to life separately from the first resurrection. They could not be dead any differently than first dead, or made LESS alive than the first group was made alive (since it is clear they do come alive).

    whatever death they were dead from, was caused by the Beast's execution - for refusing to take the mark.

    since the Beast is defeated at the start of the millennium, how do the "rest of the dead" , die? The Beast hold's no power during the millennium, therefore none can be executed.

    3) The second resurrection cannot be the same people who have come to life in the first one, and resurrected "again", because in order to be resurrected, one must be dead. ..... the two groups of dead are -both- dead and made-alive in the same way, with a time between.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  6. #21
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    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    26-Rev. 20&21 The thousand years and the new Jerusalem



    Rev 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


    We will now examine the thousand year period of Rev. 20. A correct understanding of this time period is very important. Verses one through three, are referring of course to the leader of the lost, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. We will discuss just what the bottomless pit is after we finish with the thousand year period. Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time. The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.

    Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years. It states that the judgment was given unto them. The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.

    I Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    I Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


    Of course this judgment cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life. This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world. This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him (1Th 4:14-18). During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there. Later, the wicked will surround the beloved city, or New Jerusalem, apparently after it descends from heaven down to earth (Rev. 21:1-5), at the end of the thousand years.

    The judgment that the saints are involved in is apparently for the purpose of understanding why or why not, certain people are or are not in heaven with the saved. No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years. Surely there will be questions from the saints regarding who is, and who is not there. In the end though, every knee will bow and confess that Christ is the righteous judge of all (Rom. 14:10&11).

    Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Then it says that this is the first resurrection. That is not to say that the rest of the dead not living again for a thousand years is the first resurrection, for this would make no sense at all. Rather, that those who were involved in judging the world during this thousand years were part of the first resurrection, that is, the resurrection of the saved.

    Verse six says that those who are saved and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy. It also points out that the second death will have no power over them. For them, death has been swallowed up in victory, in and through their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. They shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period.

    Verses seven through fifteen point out what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period. This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations. In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period (verse 5), must be resurrected. Thus having died once already at Christ’s second coming (Luke 17:28-30, 2 Th. 2:8, Rev. 6:14-17), they will die again the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader Satan. That both the saved and the wicked will be resurrected, was pointed out by Christ Himself when here on earth.

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years.

    The wicked surround the beloved city, and fire comes down from God and devours them (verse 9). This is the lake of fire, where the Devil, the Beast, and the False prophet are. It is where all those whose names are not written in the book of life will end up, and die the second death (verses 13-15). The book of life, from which all these people were judged, must be the book that the saints were examining during this thousand year period. This would be the judgment that they were involved in (verses 11&12).

    Now to the definition of the bottomless pit into which Satan was cast. The definition of which, will reveal that the lost are dead during this thousand year period. Let us look at some scriptures to see what a bottomless pit might represent.

    Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. 14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. 15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? 16 They shall go down to the bars ofthe pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

    Psalm 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

    Proverbs 1:11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: 12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

    Isaiah 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

    Jeremiah 41:7 And it was so, when they came into the midst of the city, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah slew them, and cast them into the midst of the pit, he, and the men that were with him.

    9 Now [b]the pit [/bwherein Ishmael had cast all the dead bodies of the men, whom he had slain because of Gedaliah, was it which Asa the king had made for fear of Baasha king of Israel: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniah filled it with them that were slain.


    In the bible, a pit is very often associated with the grave, or a place to put the dead. A bottomless pit then, would undoubtedly represent an enormous grave, filled with countless people. If the bible tells us that all the lost will be slain when Christ returns the second time, which it does, then this world would be one massive grave. The dead bodies of countless millions strewn all over it. This is in fact where Satan is bound for this thousand years, while the saved are in heaven going over the book of life, he is here with nothing but the dead. Thus Satan can no longer deceive the nations during this thousand years, for there are no nations or peoples to deceive. Jeremiah speaks of the world in this condition.

    Jer 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

    Jer 4: 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.


    Isaiah not only spoke of this condition of the earth, but prophesied of the very things we are discussing.

    Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

    Though all the kings and people will be slain, yet Satan will not join them in burial. Though he be in the pit with them, the bottomless pit, yet he will not be given the rest of the sleep of the dead. He will live for a thousand years alone with no one to deceive, and nothing to do but ponder the effects of the works of his own hands. Ever looking forward to the judgment, and his destruction at the end of the thousand years.

    Isaiah 24:18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.


    Here again, Isaiah is referring to the destruction of the earth, and the death of the wicked. When the wicked are gathered together in the pit, that is dead, and shut up in death as in prison (Job3:11-18, Isa. 53:8), then they will be visited after many days. That many days is the thousand years that we are discussing, and it will not be well for them when they are visited.

    Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    I want to be in that city, don’t you?

  7. #22

    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeth View Post
    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years.
    There is no thousand years in that text. You force it into it. It is actually speaking about one general resurrection at the end, that sees both the wicked and the righteous responding when He comes.

    What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years?
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  8. #23
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    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    There is no thousand years in that text. You force it into it. It is actually speaking about one general resurrection at the end, that sees both the wicked and the righteous responding when He comes.

    What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years?
    There are definitely two resurrections, one unto life, and the other unto damnation. As is obvious, they are not the same. I can see arguing the time element, but not the distinctness between the two. While the time element is not addressed in the scripture under examination, other scriptures help shed some light on the subject.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    There would be no sense in using the phrase first resurrection, if there was not at least a second resurrection which followed it. We already know from the scriptures already examined, that there is a resurrection unto life, and one unto death. Those above who take part in the first resurrection are obviously part of the resurrection unto life, since they live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. During this thousand years, as the scriptures point out, "the rest of the dead" live not again until the thousand years are complete. Who are or can be the rest of the dead, but those who did not take part in the first resurrection unto life, and therefore are those who take part in the resurrection unto damnation.

    These are those who are brought forth after the thousand years when Satan is loosed again and he along with the wicked surround the city before they are destroyed and cast into the lake of fire to die the second death. They take part in the second resurrection unto damnation and therefore die the second death, but those who took part in the first resurrection cannot be touched by this second death, as verse six of the above points out.

    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    The bible teaches that there is a resurrection unto life, and one unto death. While the resurrection unto life is addressed many times in scripture, the resurrection unto damnation is not examined or addressed often at all. Those scriptures which do address the resurrection unto life, do not also suggest the resurrection of the wicked at the same time, but only the fact that they are left and or destroyed by the brightness of the second coming. This of course suggests that the resurrections do not occur at the same time, and the scriptures of Rev 20 which we just examined seem to indicate the same thing. There is one scripture which seems to suggest that both resurrections occur together, but they may be in reference to a select group of the lost who will be raised to see Christ's second coming because of their direct involvement in His crucifixion.

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    I think this is a special resurrection for those whom Christ made the following prophecy -

    Mt 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
    64 Jesus saith unto him,
    Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death. 67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands, 68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

    Mr 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
    61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said,
    I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? 64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death. 65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.

  9. #24

    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeth View Post
    There are definitely two resurrections, one unto life, and the other unto damnation. As is obvious, they are not the same. I can see arguing the time element, but not the distinctness between the two. While the time element is not addressed in the scripture under examination, other scriptures help shed some light on the subject.
    we all agree on that.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    There would be no sense in using the phrase first resurrection, if there was not at least a second resurrection which followed it. We already know from the scriptures already examined, that there is a resurrection unto life, and one unto death. Those above who take part in the first resurrection are obviously part of the resurrection unto life, since they live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. During this thousand years, as the scriptures point out, "the rest of the dead" live not again until the thousand years are complete. Who are or can be the rest of the dead, but those who did not take part in the first resurrection unto life, and therefore are those who take part in the resurrection unto damnation.

    These are those who are brought forth after the thousand years when Satan is loosed again and he along with the wicked surround the city before they are destroyed and cast into the lake of fire to die the second death. They take part in the second resurrection unto damnation and therefore die the second death, but those who took part in the first resurrection cannot be touched by this second death, as verse six of the above points out.

    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    The bible teaches that there is a resurrection unto life, and one unto death. While the resurrection unto life is addressed many times in scripture, the resurrection unto damnation is not examined or addressed often at all. Those scriptures which do address the resurrection unto life, do not also suggest the resurrection of the wicked at the same time, but only the fact that they are left and or destroyed by the brightness of the second coming. This of course suggests that the resurrections do not occur at the same time, and the scriptures of Rev 20 which we just examined seem to indicate the same thing. There is one scripture which seems to suggest that both resurrections occur together, but they may be in reference to a select group of the lost who will be raised to see Christ's second coming because of their direct involvement in His crucifixion.

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    I think this is a special resurrection for those whom Christ made the following prophecy -

    Mt 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
    64 Jesus saith unto him,
    Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death. 67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands, 68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

    Mr 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
    61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said,
    I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? 64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death. 65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.
    No, "first" is "first." Everyone should know which resurrection came first and which is our means of salvation and escape from eternal punishment. This is a very basic Christian truth. The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance).

    The first resurrection is Christ. That is beyond dispute. No one conquered the grave and mortality before Him.

    Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in time.
    Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in place.
    Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in order.
    Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in importance.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  10. #25
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    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    we all agree on that.



    No, "first" is "first." Everyone should know which resurrection came first and which is our means of salvation and escape from eternal punishment. This is a very basic Christian truth. The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance).

    The first resurrection is Christ. That is beyond dispute. No one conquered the grave and mortality before Him.

    Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in time.
    Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in place.
    Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in order.
    Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in importance.
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Sorry, the context of the above is not the resurrection ofour Lord Jesus Christ. Those who take part in the first resurrection spoken of above, are those who " were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

  11. #26

    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeth View Post
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Sorry, the context of the above is not the resurrection ofour Lord Jesus Christ. Those who take part in the first resurrection spoken of above, are those who " were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
    Not true. They are actually spared the second death. When we get saved we become one with Jesus Christ spiritually. We identify with Christ and the victory He won over sin, death and the grave. As He died, was buried and conquered death, we also have our “part” in His success.

    Revelation 20:6 simply says, Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

    This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

    Both relate to life and salvation not glorification.

    The word "overcometh" here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

    If the first resurrection is supposed to be the physical resurrection of believers at the Second Advent, and this is consequently the actual means by which one escapes the second death (eternal wrath), how can people be saved (and consequently avoid the second death) in a supposed future millennium?
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  12. #27
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    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    Not true. They are actually spared the second death. When we get saved we become one with Jesus Christ spiritually. We identify with Christ and the victory He won over sin, death and the grave. As He died, was buried and conquered death, we also have our “part” in His success.

    Revelation 20:6 simply says, Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

    This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

    Both relate to life and salvation not glorification.

    The word "overcometh" here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

    If the first resurrection is supposed to be the physical resurrection of believers at the Second Advent, and this is consequently the actual means by which one escapes the second death (eternal wrath), how can people be saved (and consequently avoid the second death) in a supposed future millennium?
    You are making scripture fit your own preconceptions, rather than speaking for itself. In this case, you have determined that there is a thousand year period after Christ returns in which people are still alive on this earth. Believing such, you then must make the biblical accounts of the resurrection fit into this box. Thus you end up ignoring the obvious, and clinging to technicalities which help support your view. Rev 20 is the only place in the entire bible that specifically mentions a thousand year period after a first resurrection which takes place. It says nowhere that anyone is alive on earth during that period, but to the contrary refers only to those of the first resurrection being alive, and refers to the rest being dead until the thousand years are complete.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    There is no mention of any but those who partook of the first resurrection being alive during the thousand years. There are only those of the first resurrection, and the rest of the dead, who obviously have not been resurrected yet. Other scriptures also reveal that this world will be destroyed at Christ's second coming.

    2 Th 7:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    2 Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


    Lu 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    The bible teaches nowhere, that people will be left on earth alive after the second coming of Christ, or that there is a rapture of the church before the second coming of Christ. As the above scriptures reveal, it teaches just the opposite. Now, how will you fit the above into your box? No offense intended.

  13. #28

    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeth View Post
    You are making scripture fit your own preconceptions, rather than speaking for itself. In this case, you have determined that there is a thousand year period after Christ returns in which people are still alive on this earth. Believing such, you then must make the biblical accounts of the resurrection fit into this box. Thus you end up ignoring the obvious, and clinging to technicalities which help support your view. Rev 20 is the only place in the entire bible that specifically mentions a thousand year period after a first resurrection which takes place. It says nowhere that anyone is alive on earth during that period, but to the contrary refers only to those of the first resurrection being alive, and refers to the rest being dead until the thousand years are complete.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    There is no mention of any but those who partook of the first resurrection being alive during the thousand years. There are only those of the first resurrection, and the rest of the dead, who obviously have not been resurrected yet. Other scriptures also reveal that this world will be destroyed at Christ's second coming.

    2 Th 7:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    2 Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


    Lu 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    The bible teaches nowhere, that people will be left on earth alive after the second coming of Christ, or that there is a rapture of the church before the second coming of Christ. As the above scriptures reveal, it teaches just the opposite. Now, how will you fit the above into your box? No offense intended.
    Do you believe there will be no wicked that survive the Second Coming?
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  14. #29
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    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    Do you believe there will be no wicked that survive the Second Coming?
    Were there any survivors after the flood but those whom the Lord delivered? Were there any survivors of Sodom other than those whom the Lord delivered? these are the examples Christ provided. No, there will be no survivors of the second coming but those whom the Lord delivers and raises from the dead. The rest will only live again to face the lake of fire and the second death, which is the resurrection of damnation.

  15. #30

    Re: End-Times Debate: "One or Two Resurrections / Judgments?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeth View Post
    Were there any survivors after the flood but those whom the Lord delivered? Were there any survivors of Sodom other than those whom the Lord delivered? these are the examples Christ provided. No, there will be no survivors of the second coming but those whom the Lord delivers and raises from the dead. The rest will only live again to face the lake of fire and the second death, which is the resurrection of damnation.
    Whilst i agree with most of what you say about the destruction of the wicked. The whole future millennial argument you present doesn't stand up to Scripture or enjoy any other scriptural corroboration. If so: where?
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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