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Thread: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

  1. #1
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    This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    We can't just interpret that verse in isolation. It has to be interpreted according to context.

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


    Verse 33 is meaning is nigh when it indicates know that it is near, even at the doors. We can easily deduce that via verse 32 since verse 33 is meaning likewise, such as in verse 32.

    So now we are to verse 34.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    2 major things here. This generation shall not pass, but hardly meaning as in never then, but meaning not until all these things be fulfilled first. All of what things?

    Now to verse 35.

    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Why bring the mentioning of heaven and earth passing away if this generation in verse 34 was referring to those living at the time? Why would they care a flip about the heaven and earth passing away if Jesus was referring to their generation at the time in verse 34, but that the heaven and earth was in no way going to pass away within their generation? Talk about confusing if this were the case. You would think if Jesus is meaning their generation at the time, He wouldn't then out of nowhere, for no reason at all then go into discussing a time far outside of this generation. Surely He would have kept everything contextually coherent. Understanding verse 34 to be meaning one time period, and verse 35 another time period, there is no logical connection of these verses to one another.

    Now to verse 36.

    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Of what day? Obviously when heaven and earth shall pass away. But what about this generation passing away as well? It has to pass away, right? Meaning once all these things are fulfilled. When the heaven and earth pass away, will all of these things mentioned in verse 34 have already been fulfilled? I would think so. Doesn't it then seem reasonable that when heaven and earth pass away, this is when this generation shall pass away? Verse 36 says...But of that day and hour knoweth no man. With that in mind let's go to verse 37 noticing it begins with a 'But'.

    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Something in this verse has to connect back to...But of that day and hour knoweth no man. The only thing that can connect back to it would have to be this...so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. That's the day and hour knoweth no man. In summary then, that is the day and hour knoweth no man, when this generation shall pass when heaven and earth pass away, when the coming of the Son of man literally occurs, as in physically and visibly. IOW, it's all part of the same event. And it for sure isn't remotely meaning when the Preterists and Partial Preterists claim it is meaning.

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    Re: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    I think i'm the one who brought up this Idea to you. I just want to point out that Jesus was making a declaration in Matt 24:34-36.
    He said this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. His words

    Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[b]but the Father only.

    This here i believe is another Declaration and this is the only thing to which no one knows not even him or the angels (Heaven and earth passing away). But here he's saying even this will happen before his words pass away! We know this to be true from Revelations 20.

    Overall if we understand this to mean that Jesus doesn't know about his second coming (as most believe) why did he tell the disciples all those signs previous. It also wasn't the first time he told them about the time of the end. I will add there is no where in scriptures that gives us even an inkling of when Heaven and earth pass away. The coming of the Son of Man on the other hand couldn't be proceeded with more signs! It is also literally announced by multitude of angels (trumpets) vials so how could they not know?

  3. #3
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    Re: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I think i'm the one who brought up this Idea to you. I just want to point out that Jesus was making a declaration in Matt 24:34-36.
    He said this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. His words

    Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[b]but the Father only.

    This here i believe is another Declaration and this is the only thing to which no one knows not even him or the angels (Heaven and earth passing away). But here he's saying even this will happen before his words pass away! We know this to be true from Revelations 20.

    Overall if we understand this to mean that Jesus doesn't know about his second coming (as most believe) why did he tell the disciples all those signs previous. It also wasn't the first time he told them about the time of the end. I will add there is no where in scriptures that gives us even an inkling of when Heaven and earth pass away. The coming of the Son of Man on the other hand couldn't be proceeded with more signs! It is also literally announced by multitude of angels (trumpets) vials so how could they not know?
    Actually though, it wasn't you that gave me the idea for this thread. It's mainly these Partial Preterists around here, such as Marty Fox, that inspired me to start a thread in regards to mainly this. I can't help but notice how when this generation is mentioned in threads, he then goes into how this can only be meaning the first century.

    As to what you put here, I'll try and address what you said in a bit. But for now thought I would at least tell you that you didn't inspire me to start this thread. But of course though, I haven't as of yet read every post you have made. But that doesn't mean I eventually won't. Just means that I haven't got around to fully doing it as of yet.

  4. #4

    Re: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I will add there is no where in scriptures that gives us even an inkling of when Heaven and earth pass away.
    It is my understanding that the phrase "heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away" [see Psalm 102:25-27] is just like saying "that which I have said WILL INDEED come to pass! Be CERTAIN of it!"

    The [Olivet Discourse] context itself is about His 2nd Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied [earthly] Millennial Kingdom... and He is not saying that no one will EVER know.

    I believe He has known ever since His ascension, and then He later gave further information on that very subject, in The Revelation (95ad), "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO shew unto..."

    ["things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]"--with the ending portions referring to His 2nd Coming to the earth (Rev19)... etc]

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    Re: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Actually though, it wasn't you that gave me the idea for this thread. It's mainly these Partial Preterists around here, such as Marty Fox, that inspired me to start a thread in regards to mainly this. I can't help but notice how when this generation is mentioned in threads, he then goes into how this can only be meaning the first century.

    As to what you put here, I'll try and address what you said in a bit. But for now thought I would at least tell you that you didn't inspire me to start this thread. But of course though, I haven't as of yet read every post you have made. But that doesn't mean I eventually won't. Just means that I haven't got around to fully doing it as of yet.
    Yea i wasn't taking credit for the thread just your small portion no one knowing that day (that heaven and earth pass away) as for the rest of the thread i really don't have an opinion all though i guess i am a little interested.

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    Re: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    It is my understanding that the phrase "heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away" [see Psalm 102:25-27] is just like saying "that which I have said WILL INDEED come to pass! Be CERTAIN of it!"

    The context itself is about His 2nd Coming to the earth FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied [earthly] Millennial Kingdom... and He is not saying that no one will EVER know.

    I believe He has known ever since His ascension, and then He later gave further information on that very subject, in The Revelation (95ad), "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO shew unto..."

    ["things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]"--with the ending portions referring to His 2nd Coming to the earth (Rev19)... etc]
    I just looked at that passage in Psalms 102. Maybe since I mainly use the KJV and that you are likely using a different translation, perhaps your translation brings out the point better, and that I'm just not seeing what you are trying to convey here because of the translation I'm using?

    BTW then...

    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Obviously one of these things passes away, one of these things doesn't. Shouldn't this be a clue to take this in a literal sense, that something will pass away, and that something won't? If we consider Rev 21:1, we see this.

    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


    Until there can even be a NHNE, the former one, meaning this present one, has to pass away first. I see no reason why it can't be meaning Matthew 24:35, but not that this has to occur instantaneously necessarily. But because of His return the former heaven and earth will gradually pass away. So maybe I don't exactly have the OP entirely correct yet. Still some things to iron out here. But one thing that I don't need to still iron out, that this has nothing to do with the first century, thus the Preterists and Partial Preterists are clearly wrong about that.

  7. #7

    Re: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    But one thing that I don't need to still iron out, that this has nothing to do with the first century, thus the Preterists and Partial Preterists are clearly wrong about that.
    Well, I agree with you there [I believe that only Luke 21:12-24a of the Olivet Discourse were about the events of 70ad, and all the rest of it is about the future time period LEADING UP TO Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom].

    It starts with "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (Matthew 24:4-8 [these match the Seals of Rev6]) and ONE "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" in particular (1Th5:2-3) that kicks it off... This STARTS "the DOTL [time period; "DARK" portion (7-yrs/70th-Wk)]" with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO "in his time" [the beginning point, the middle point, the end point, of him [7 yrs total]). [the DOTL will be "present" when the "man of sin" is also... (i.e. not yet, but future [in the "7-yrs" he does significant things (beginning, middle, end of)])]


    "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]" Rev1:1.
    [so this nixes the Historicist viewpoint also (the idea that The Revelation is describing events over 2000-yrs [or the like])]

  8. #8

    Re: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I just looked at that passage in Psalms 102. Maybe since I mainly use the KJV and that you are likely using a different translation, perhaps your translation brings out the point better, and that I'm just not seeing what you are trying to convey here because of the translation I'm using?
    Well I was looking at the kjv. The end of verse 26 says, "as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed." In my center-cross-reference, this verse connects with Isaiah 34:4 (which, as you know, correlates with 2Pet3:10-13's... "IN which") and in reading the entire context of Isaiah 34-35 shows to be things occurring over the course of some time (just like the "IN which" indicates, in 2Pet3 [and in other passages with same]). "The Day of the Lord" (referred to in 2Pet3) is not a singular 24-hr day... but a long time period which INCLUDES the 1000-yr reign/MK.

    The earth is not going to be instantly obliterated upon His "return" (as the Amil-teaching viewpoint has it).

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    Re: This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    We can't just interpret that verse in isolation. It has to be interpreted according to context.

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


    Verse 33 is meaning is nigh when it indicates know that it is near, even at the doors. We can easily deduce that via verse 32 since verse 33 is meaning likewise, such as in verse 32.

    So now we are to verse 34.

    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    2 major things here. This generation shall not pass, but hardly meaning as in never then, but meaning not until all these things be fulfilled first. All of what things?

    Now to verse 35.

    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    Why bring the mentioning of heaven and earth passing away if this generation in verse 34 was referring to those living at the time? Why would they care a flip about the heaven and earth passing away if Jesus was referring to their generation at the time in verse 34, but that the heaven and earth was in no way going to pass away within their generation? Talk about confusing if this were the case. You would think if Jesus is meaning their generation at the time, He wouldn't then out of nowhere, for no reason at all then go into discussing a time far outside of this generation. Surely He would have kept everything contextually coherent. Understanding verse 34 to be meaning one time period, and verse 35 another time period, there is no logical connection of these verses to one another.
    The passing away of the universe is viewed by Jesus as *temporal,* in contrast with the word of God, which is viewed as eternal and trustworthy. The Abrahamic Covenant is a matter of God's promise, and *must* come to pass. This assurance is viewed against the realities associated with human failure.

    But this is a good question. What *is* the context of the Olivet Discourse. I've dealt with this a number of times, and I do appreciate the difficulty. I think this is because Jesus placed his own Coming in the context of the Jewish War 66-70 AD. And he did not so not because *he* introduced the subject, but because *his disciples* had introduced the subject. Jesus' main and sole interest was in warning his disciples that the Jewish religious system and its center, the temple, was about to be destroyed. Jesus' disciples had to view this warning in the context of their understanding that Jesus was himself the Messiah, who was to restore Israel--not destroy it.

    And so Jesus explained how the Jewish system can be destroyed in the light of his Messianic calling. Waiting for his Coming was not a matter of setting dates. Rather, it was a matter of expecting the destruction of Jerusalem in that generation, and of expecting Jewish failure thereafter until his Kingdom actually comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    Now to verse 36.

    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Of what day? Obviously when heaven and earth shall pass away. But what about this generation passing away as well? It has to pass away, right? Meaning once all these things are fulfilled. When the heaven and earth pass away, will all of these things mentioned in verse 34 have already been fulfilled? I would think so. Doesn't it then seem reasonable that when heaven and earth pass away, this is when this generation shall pass away? Verse 36 says...But of that day and hour knoweth no man. With that in mind let's go to verse 37 noticing it begins with a 'But'.

    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Something in this verse has to connect back to...But of that day and hour knoweth no man. The only thing that can connect back to it would have to be this...so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. That's the day and hour knoweth no man. In summary then, that is the day and hour knoweth no man, when this generation shall pass when heaven and earth pass away, when the coming of the Son of man literally occurs, as in physically and visibly. IOW, it's all part of the same event. And it for sure isn't remotely meaning when the Preterists and Partial Preterists claim it is meaning.
    Preterists are certainly not right if they believe Jesus came in 70 AD! However, Partial Preterists are at least partly right in their historical interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, as were many in the Early Church. They believed that Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple, which is plainly true.

    Mat 24.Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

    So the Abomination that causes Desolation was clearly Rome, and not the Antichrist! We also see this plainly taught...

    Luk 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

    This is unmistakably referring to the Jewish War 66-70 AD! So the real problem, it seems to me, is how to reconcile Jesus' apparent association of this War with his own Coming. The Preterists think they are simultaneous. I don't. I think Jesus explained that his Kingdom would not come immediately, but would remain "near" throughout the period of the Jewish Diaspora.

    So Jesus described the current era as pre-Kingdom, as a time of suffering for the Jews, as well as a time of persecution for Christians by the evil world. The Jews would be judged for their unbelief, and the Christians would suffer for their testimony in a world that rejects Christ.

    In light of this you should be able to understand that Jesus is *not* setting forth a chronology for his Coming. He plainly was against setting dates.

    Acts 1.7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

    Mat 24.36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

    So notice in Mat 24.37 that Jesus then describes the present age as "the days of Noah." That is, *throughout the current NT age* the age can be characterized as "the days of Noah!" Why is that? I believe it is because the Kingdom is not to come imminently, but will give time for the world to repent. The world continues to be characterized as an "evil age," even though the gospel goes out winning converts and converting entire nations for the sake of Abraham.

    How did this apply practically for the Jewish believers in the time Jesus said this? They had to realize that the world remained evil, that Israel would remain in unbelief, and the Kingdom of Messiah was not imminent. Therefore, Israel would come under judgment *in that generation* for their rejection of Messiah.

    For Christians the practical necessity is in preaching the gospel to gather more nations for Abraham, and to warn both Israel and all the world about the coming Kingdom--about its judgment. So Jesus was not giving a chronology of his Coming, nor was he pinpointing his Coming in the generation of the temple's destruction. Rather, he was characterizing the whole age as evil, with the need to repent--both Jews and Gentiles.

    When Jesus said the Son of Man would come from heaven he was referring to Dan 7, where Messiah is portrayed as coming with his Kingdom. But then Jesus said that *in his own generation* "these things" would happen. What things? Well, Jesus' main focus had been on the destruction of the temple. That is what would happen in that particular generation. That is the context Jesus was speaking into.

    However, at this point Jesus was also talking about his Coming at the end of this evil age. So he would not say how long it would be after the events of his own generation. He only warned that this situation would continue until he came.

    Therefore, the characteristics of the age Jesus described cover the *entire age.* But the events of his own generation, the destruction of the temple, would obviously take place only in that generation. Nevertheless, it would be in character with the entire evil age. Clearly, Jesus was not setting up description of the generation in which he would come. Rather, he was focusing upon the need of the Church to stay true to his word, and to warn both Israel and the world of the coming judgment. That would take place in some measure in the present age. But in the final judgment Christ would bring his Kingdom to bear in a greater way. What that entails is a matter of speculation. I think it will involve a major war, a world war, a nuclear war. But Christ will bind Satan, and judge all those who participated in antichristian activity. Those who survive will enter into the Millennial Age.

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