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Thread: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

  1. #136
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    The great thing PRAISE GOD! Is that receiving a BEATING from another person is punishable by LAW!
    No one has to ENDURE this, and there ought be no one, no church that would ever support taking a beating from anyone, enduring it and saying nothing by spouting 1 Peter 2!

    1 Peter 2 mentions nothing about marriage. Husbands are not masters. No connection that I can see here.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  2. #137

    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    As if the there is no longer an application? Are we left in the dark here? Why this question?

    If I'm correct that Paul was calling wives and husbands each separately, to take the high road even when the other half is not, ... then your "what then" question is merely rhetorical/moot. The answer is it doesn't matter what the other half is doing, you do your part.

    Peter cannot argue for slaves to obey masters if they don't have a choice about it. They do. The same to wives, they have a choice, the critical difference in the two is that the consequences of disobedience to a cruel slave master could be a beating. The consequences of disobedience to an unloving husband might be something much more relational, or even nothing at all. What does bear down on each case, is the degradation of reverence for God.

    1 Peter 2 adapted:
    19 For it is commendable if someone (a wife) bears up under the pain of unjust suffering (an unloving husband) because they (she is) are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating (the husband's neglect/rudeness) for doing wrong (refusing him) and endure it? But if you suffer (get mistreated) for doing good (submitting) and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

    If you care to see it, the principle can be applied without tying submission directly to rape and abuse. Just an assumption of course, but I would think Peter would have been on the side of freeing slaves in the American South from sub-human treatment, yes?. The slavery of their day didn't work the same way, of course.
    The question I'm asking is what does 'taking the high road' look like? An abusive husband orders his wife to have violent, rough sex with him. She refuses, as the last time he was too rough and she had to seek medical treatment. Are you confirming that you understand 1 Peter as commanding wives to allow themselves to be sexually abused 'because God'?

  3. #138
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    The great thing PRAISE GOD! Is that receiving a BEATING from another person is punishable by LAW!
    No one has to ENDURE this, and there ought be no one, no church that would ever support taking a beating from anyone, enduring it and saying nothing by spouting 1 Peter 2!

    1 Peter 2 mentions nothing about marriage. Husbands are not masters. No connection that I can see here.
    Right, "submission" must mean different things in different relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Pleasing each other.
    Hopefully yes.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  4. #139
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Right, "submission" must mean different things in different relationships.

    Remember this and you can't go wrong:

    You have a duty to obey your conscious. You also have a duty to inform your conscious. If your informed conscious say's it's wrong don't obey any human authority.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  5. #140
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    The great thing PRAISE GOD! Is that receiving a BEATING from another person is punishable by LAW!
    No one has to ENDURE this, and there ought be no one, no church that would ever support taking a beating from anyone, enduring it and saying nothing by spouting 1 Peter 2!
    Agree, praise God, now moving on... the apostles clearly didn't have an avenue for freeing slaves, and did not seek one, rather they advocated merely humble behavior. That's all. They didn't endorse slavery, abuse, or any such thing. But somehow if I bear down on merely what they addressed, I'm somehow a fan of slavery or something who needs to be reminded how terrible slavery is. Your tone is really kind of despicable.

    1 Peter 2 mentions nothing about marriage. Husbands are not masters. No connection that I can see here.
    I drew the connection and made the appropriate clarifications and qualifications being as it is obvious husbands are not masters. Perhaps just read the paraphrase I provided again more slowly you'll see the meaning.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  6. #141
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    my head is really in my hands, you really are being obtuse just to frustrate me.

    Were you not able to see the replacement of the slave relationship with the appropriate parenthetically inserted wife relationship?

    Read again with the action against the slave REPLACED with the parenthetical insertion. Good grief, it wasn't even asking to read between the lines. Just take a deep breath bro.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  7. #142
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    my head is really in my hands, you really are being obtuse just to frustrate me.

    Were you not able to see the replacement of the slave relationship with the appropriate parenthetically inserted wife relationship?

    Read again with the action against the slave REPLACED with the parenthetical insertion. Good grief, it wasn't even asking to read between the lines. Just take a deep breath bro.

    Why not just move onto 1 Peter 3 where wives are specifically addressed instead of adjusting the 1 Peter 2 scriptures to wives ?
    Would rather create the effect and then call others obtuse or their tone despicable? Just like there are "shabby wives" there are despicable tones, I guess.

    He who has found a wife has found a GOOD thing and obtains favor from the Lord. Proverbs 18:22

    Note 1 Peter 3 addresses the way a woman carries herself toward men who are not her husband, and toward her husband living not as a carpet, but in His grace respecting God, herself and others---rather than what you are portraying through long suffering toward masters or authorities that do not include husbands and wives within the narrative.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  8. #143
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Remember this and you can't go wrong:

    You have a duty to obey your conscious. You also have a duty to inform your conscious. If your informed conscious say's it's wrong don't obey any human authority.
    I absolutely agree... in practice this is the right response to any situation! But I think it's still good to study Scripture since sometimes we can have the wrong impression.

    I would really like to hear more from people who think a wife's submission means obedience; but there's a lot of beating around the bush in this thread and I can't seem to get to the meat and potatoes. Is it because the counter position is stronger or because people are trying to avoid hurt feelings? I love straight answers.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  9. #144
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    There's a difference between submission and obedience. It may seem subtle at times but it's there.

    I found a write up that I think is a pretty good read at Bible.org I'm not going to suggest that this is definitive but I personally agree with it 100%

    https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-...out-submission
    Day by day
    Oh Dear Lord
    Three things I pray
    To see thee more clearly
    Love thee more dearly
    Follow thee more nearly
    Day by day

  10. #145
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    That was a great link Brian.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  11. #146
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    There's a difference between submission and obedience. It may seem subtle at times but it's there.

    I found a write up that I think is a pretty good read at Bible.org I'm not going to suggest that this is definitive but I personally agree with it 100%

    https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-...out-submission
    Great article.

    I am blessed that my wife prays to the One I submit to. Her prayers do get answered...though sometimes not immediately......

    God can be powerful in a woman’s life.

  12. #147
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    There's a difference between submission and obedience. It may seem subtle at times but it's there.

    I found a write up that I think is a pretty good read at Bible.org I'm not going to suggest that this is definitive but I personally agree with it 100%

    https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-...out-submission
    I like the example of Abigail that she brought up. I'm trying to find where she defines submission though? We'd probably agree on the meaning of it, but it's still not clear to me how others define it. For example, she says:

    First of all, let's talk about the word "submit." This is a different term from the word "obey," which is used in relation to children and slaves. It is important for us to understand that the word used to command obedience from children and slaves is never used in a command form for wives.
    This is a strong point for sure and I agree with it. But she doesn't really explore how they are different. Children and slaves share the same obligations to the Lord as wives, in that none of them are told to sin when ordered to. My question is about when the order is not sinful. What distinguishes a wife from a slave in this scenario? Can a wife decline a lawful order and also be maritally submissive? Abigail and Esther suggest maybe. (Not directed at you in particular, since I take it you would answer "yes").

    If I were to be in a dire situation or giving advice to someone else, it wouldn't be enough to just take for granted wives and slaves are different roles. I think submission completely deals with an attitude of respect (Sarah calling Abraham "lord", but also gave him an "order" which he followed regarding Hagar).

    But I'm interested in the alternate view if anyone here actually holds it (hard to tell).
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  13. #148
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Something seldom mentioned about the Proverbs 31 woman is that her husband submitted and allowed her the freedom, trust, backing, provision and space for her to accomplish what she accomplished.

    A woman can accomplish incredible things when she is loved and unshackled.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  14. #149
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Why not just move onto 1 Peter 3 where wives are specifically addressed instead of adjusting the 1 Peter 2 scriptures to wives ?
    Would rather create the effect and then call others obtuse or their tone despicable? Just like there are "shabby wives" there are despicable tones, I guess.

    He who has found a wife has found a GOOD thing and obtains favor from the Lord. Proverbs 18:22

    Note 1 Peter 3 addresses the way a woman carries herself toward men who are not her husband, and toward her husband living not as a carpet, but in His grace respecting God, herself and others---rather than what you are portraying through long suffering toward masters or authorities that do not include husbands and wives within the narrative.
    I think it is worth pointing out that 1 Peter 2's context is continued in 1 Peter 3 with the general overtone of submission, in each respective element of the social fabric.

    1 Peter 3:1
    *In like manner, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; (ASV)
    *Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands (NKJV)


    I must be too much of a simpleton to understand how you get to the idea of chapter 3 being about wives relationships toward men that are NOT her husband. Perhaps you meant to say that it was about a husband who was not a Christian?

    It seems quite obvious that the point of the passage is to encourage women to be in submission REGARDLESS of the disposition of the husband, just as a husband is to regard his wife tenderly regardless of all other factors. What also seems clear is that the situational context for Peter does not involve extreem or abusive situations with regards to wives.

    In other words, while it may have been common for slaves in those days to be abused physically, it is not likely that Peter is considering a similar kind of authority over wives. Accordingly, Peter is not advocating for wives to submit to beatings, but he IS saying slaves should submit to them. Regardless of the fact that slavery today is immoral, this does not change the straightforward relationship association that Peter is making between all holders of authority, and those they have authority over.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  15. #150
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    Re: Women, Submission, and Responsibilities in Relationships

    I haven't read the answers so forgive me if it's a repeat and just drive on lol.

    Someone said it's respect...I agree and my husband and I had to learn this on both ends. Alot of people always pull out the "submission" card for women, but they tend to forget the rest of the scripture in Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,. Love and respect is a two-way street. My husband and I discuss things, we toss ideas back and forth and in the end come to a mutual decision. Sometimes I may still disagree but do what he feels is best. Sometimes he does the same for me, but in the end, I try to let the final decision be his because he is the head of our home. I didn't always do this due to his job so I made alot of the decisions and honestly, I didn't always trust his decisions but mainly because I never gave him the chance. We try to be respectful of each other and yes we do clash every so often but we no longer allow it to last. He was always better at that than I was lol. I'm pretty good now

    As for dating...respect. You aren't married so he is not in authority over you per say so you make your own decisions for what's best in your life. But that doesn't mean being disrespectful to his thoughts and/or ideas. This is how my daughter and her fiance are. They have both been in bad relationships but because my daughter has had to learn and grow from hers (we taught her more of the biblical way) and realizes what she needed to change in herself and such...she is better able now to understand how to help her fiance along when he struggles and he is able to help her as well (and when he can't, he messages me ). In other words...they communicate and it's one of the most important things in a relationship.

    Respect goes a long way.

    Live your life in such a
    way that, when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says...

    "Oh NO.... she's awake!"

    ____________________________________________


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