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Thread: Friendly discussion Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

  1. #1

    Friendly discussion Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    What are the issue of a mid-trib or post-trib view anyhow?

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    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    As far as mid trib, I don't see it being much different than pretrib. But there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of midtribbers these days, or if there is, they're being pretty silent for the most part. As far as post trib, can't think of anything negative about that position since that seems to be the position the Bible is teaching. But if someone can bring up some bad points about it, I for one am willing to hear them out.

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    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    That's not it at all.

    Its just that in spite of all kinds of evidence against a 'gathering of the saints BEFORE a coming tribulation and being shown scripture after scripture that Jesus only returns ONE TIME (at the last trumpet!)...PEOPLE STILL TEND TO CLING TO THEIR OWN INDOCTRINATION.

    (And judge others for not believing their indoctrination! Some go as far as to tell them they are looking forward to the 'tribulation' and to take videos! Pre-trib people are the most judgemental of all end time views.)
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

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    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Assuming the 2nd coming happens in our lifetime, post trib teaches that one has to endure until the end to be saved, while pre trib teaches just the oposite.

    Matthew 24:12 *And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 *But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    IOW, post trib agrees with the above passage, pretrib doesn't.

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    Re: Friendly discussion Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrz View Post
    the powers of darkness must be most scared of pre-trib and are trying to get folk to reject it for some reason.
    Or "the powers of darkness" are scared of a battle-ready church and would rather it be totally unprepared for persecution.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    As far as mid trib, I don't see it being much different than pretrib.
    I agree, mid-trib is essentially just pre-trib at a later time.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Friendly discussion Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    ADMIN NOTE:

    You will notice that I made some edit to some of the posts. This thread was off to a bad start so

    1) You either behave and stop claiming one is better than the other by using derogatory words such as "dangerous" , "scared", etc

    OR

    2) I will shut the thread down for disrespectful behaviors and antagonism

    Post with respect please
    Amazzin

    Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

    CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!




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    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    That's not it at all.

    Its just that in spite of all kinds of evidence against a 'gathering of the saints BEFORE a coming tribulation and being shown scripture after scripture that Jesus only returns ONE TIME (at the last trumpet!)...PEOPLE STILL TEND TO CLING TO THEIR OWN INDOCTRINATION.

    (And judge others for not believing their indoctrination! Some go as far as to tell them they are looking forward to the 'tribulation' and to take videos! Pre-trib people are the most judgemental of all end time views.)
    Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
    4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.

    29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
    14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

    31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

    32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
    38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

    Ezekiel 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. 18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

    30:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
    35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

    20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
    42 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.

    36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    Zephaniah 3:17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
    18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.
    19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
    20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord.

    Zechariah 10:8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.

    I agree, the gathering of the Lords people, the faithful in Christ comes after the great tribulation.

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    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi View Post
    Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
    4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.

    29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
    14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

    31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

    32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
    38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

    Ezekiel 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. 18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

    30:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
    35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

    20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
    42 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.

    36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    Zephaniah 3:17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
    18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.
    19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
    20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord.

    Zechariah 10:8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.

    I agree, the gathering of the Lords people, the faithful in Christ comes after the great tribulation.
    While all these scriptures predict a literal gathering of God's people, they all concern Israel, God's earthly people, who are in dispersion among the nations. I think the thread is about the gathering of God's heavenly people - the Church, in an "up-calling" to the air.

    There is one question that (self)so-called Post-Tribers never answer. It is, WHY??? What is the purpose then of a rapture? It will be an exercise in futility. Why would our Lord Jesus Christ command His angels to catch up a weary, battered, defeated, bunch of Christians (Rev.13:7), only to plop them onto the same devastated earth again seconds later (seeing as they deny a sojourn of Christ in the clouds and make no difference between the different Greek words for His coming)? If 1st Thessalonians 4:18 says "COMFORT" one another with these words - I ask the self-so-called Post-Tribers; "what COMFORT is the prediction of a bunch of "overcome" Christians...?

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    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Assuming the 2nd coming happens in our lifetime, post trib teaches that one has to endure until the end to be saved, while pre trib teaches just the oposite.

    Matthew 24:12 *And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 *But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    IOW, post trib agrees with the above passage, pretrib doesn't.
    But if the context of Matthew 24 3-31 is all about Jews (the Law, the Sabbath, the Temple with its Holy Place and being in Judah where our Lord Jesus will appear), then all makes sense. There is no rapture for the Jews. The Great Tribulation is CENTERED on the Jews. It is "Jacob's Trouble" (Jer.30:7). It is the unprecedented "TROUBLE" for Daniel's People (Dan.12:1-2).

  10. #10

    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    As I understand Revelation 7-8, there will be 'the Great Tribulation'; then those who came out of this Tribulation will go to heaven (the rapture?) - this will mark the end of the time of the gentiles; thereafter the 144,000 Israelites will be sealed, and THEN God's wrath will be poured on those who are left behind.

    It seems to me we've been experiencing tribulation since Christ's resurrection; the Great Tribulation will still come, then the rapture, followed by the Wrath of God.

    I used to believe in the mid-tribulation interpretation until I realized that it's not the tribulation that's divided into two, but that the tribulation is different from the time of wrath.

    Thus: post-tribulation, pre-wrath
    B.
    Jeremiah 29:11
    "For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." (NASB)

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    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Quote Originally Posted by paidforinfull View Post
    As I understand Revelation 7-8, there will be 'the Great Tribulation'; then those who came out of this Tribulation will go to heaven (the rapture?) - this will mark the end of the time of the gentiles; thereafter the 144,000 Israelites will be sealed, and THEN God's wrath will be poured on those who are left behind.

    It seems to me we've been experiencing tribulation since Christ's resurrection; the Great Tribulation will still come, then the rapture, followed by the Wrath of God.

    I used to believe in the mid-tribulation interpretation until I realized that it's not the tribulation that's divided into two, but that the tribulation is different from the time of wrath.

    Thus: post-tribulation, pre-wrath
    B.
    This belief seems to be gaining foothold. Could you show a divided Tribulation from scripture? I am interested in the arguments.

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    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    While all these scriptures predict a literal gathering of God's people, they all concern Israel, God's earthly people, who are in dispersion among the nations. I think the thread is about the gathering of God's heavenly people - the Church, in an "up-calling" to the air.

    There is one question that (self)so-called Post-Tribers never answer. It is, WHY??? What is the purpose then of a rapture? It will be an exercise in futility. Why would our Lord Jesus Christ command His angels to catch up a weary, battered, defeated, bunch of Christians (Rev.13:7), only to plop them onto the same devastated earth again seconds later (seeing as they deny a sojourn of Christ in the clouds and make no difference between the different Greek words for His coming)? If 1st Thessalonians 4:18 says "COMFORT" one another with these words - I ask the self-so-called Post-Tribers; "what COMFORT is the prediction of a bunch of "overcome" Christians...?
    I have yet to see a scripture that says we land back on the earth. At the judgment of the sheep and the goats, its the angels and Jesus who are there during the nations judgement. Nothing is said about where the "brethren" are in Matthew 25.

    Whereas we know our true dwelling is in the Jerusalem above, not in the earthly Jerusalem. We have rooms and mansions in heaven. We are presented to the Father. Sure we will rule and reign with Christ on earth, but do we actually live here, or are we just "camping" here? Rev 20 describes our dwelling in Jerusalem as the "camp of the saints". Why "camp". Why not city? Or palace? Or mansions? Maybe its described as a camp, because the saints (true resurrected believers) are in a temporary location in the earthly Jerusalem , our true dwelling is the heavenly Jerusalem.

    So we do join the heavenly procession after our wedding feast, and we do participate in that procession during the Armageddon war of Rev 19, but I do not believe we land. We go to our heavenly dwelling the New Jerusalem, not here to earth. After that we may take turns ruling here with Christ on earth, but only camping.

  13. #13

    Re: Friendly discussion Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    While all these scriptures predict a literal gathering of God's people, they all concern Israel, God's earthly people, who are in dispersion among the nations. I think the thread is about the gathering of God's heavenly people - the Church, in an "up-calling" to the air.

    There is one question that (self)so-called Post-Tribers never answer. It is, WHY??? What is the purpose then of a rapture? It will be an exercise in futility. Why would our Lord Jesus Christ command His angels to catch up a weary, battered, defeated, bunch of Christians (Rev.13:7), only to plop them onto the same devastated earth again seconds later (seeing as they deny a sojourn of Christ in the clouds and make no difference between the different Greek words for His coming)? If 1st Thessalonians 4:18 says "COMFORT" one another with these words - I ask the self-so-called Post-Tribers; "what COMFORT is the prediction of a bunch of "overcome" Christians...?
    As far as I can tell, the biblically stated purpose of the rapture is found in 1 Cor 15:51-53. It is to change what is perishable to that which is imperishable. It is not to spare us from tribulation or persecution.

    Keep in mind that the wheat and tares are gathered up at the same time and then immediately separated (Matt 13). The wheat are not gathered 7 years before the tares.

  14. #14

    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Quote Originally Posted by paidforinfull View Post
    As I understand Revelation 7-8, there will be 'the Great Tribulation'; then those who came out of this Tribulation will go to heaven (the rapture?) - this will mark the end of the time of the gentiles; thereafter the 144,000 Israelites will be sealed, and THEN God's wrath will be poured on those who are left behind.

    It seems to me we've been experiencing tribulation since Christ's resurrection; the Great Tribulation will still come, then the rapture, followed by the Wrath of God.

    I used to believe in the mid-tribulation interpretation until I realized that it's not the tribulation that's divided into two, but that the tribulation is different from the time of wrath.

    Thus: post-tribulation, pre-wrath
    B.
    the great tribulation in rev 7 was suffered by the church in John's day. there is not one good reason for allocating it to the end time. the church has always suffered tribulation. if you lived in Biblical countries as Christians today you would know all about tribulation

    the great tribulation OF THE JEWS began in 67 AD and continues on to the present time (Matt 24.21 PARALLELS Luke 21.24. they are both speaking of the same thing. you only have to look at the context to see that.)

    God does not keep His people out of tribulation. History testifies to that. But the idea of worldwide tribulation all at one time is not Scriptural.

    Why are Americans so keen on tribulation? Is it because they have never experienced it? Many of them give the impression of being besotted with the idea.

    If Darby hadn't invented it no one would ever have thought of the idea.

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    Re: DANGER of Mid-Trib and Post-Trib view...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    While all these scriptures predict a literal gathering of God's people, they all concern Israel, God's earthly people, who are in dispersion among the nations. I think the thread is about the gathering of God's heavenly people - the Church, in an "up-calling" to the air.

    There is one question that (self)so-called Post-Tribers never answer. It is, WHY??? What is the purpose then of a rapture? It will be an exercise in futility. Why would our Lord Jesus Christ command His angels to catch up a weary, battered, defeated, bunch of Christians (Rev.13:7), only to plop them onto the same devastated earth again seconds later (seeing as they deny a sojourn of Christ in the clouds and make no difference between the different Greek words for His coming)? If 1st Thessalonians 4:18 says "COMFORT" one another with these words - I ask the self-so-called Post-Tribers; "what COMFORT is the prediction of a bunch of "overcome" Christians...?
    The gathering of "Israel" are his faithful in Christ, and are not ethnic Jews.
    There will be 7,000 ethnic Jews among all the faithful in Christ (Israel) from around the world who will be gathered to the land of Israel after the great tribulation.
    There is no Rapture of the living faithful that will take them out of their bodies and off the earth.
    That is eschatology.

    Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:..., is when the little horn (aka the antichrist) wears out the saints.

    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    This time, times, and dividing of time is the forty two month great tribulation.
    After this time, the judgment shall sit and give the kingdom of God to the saints on earth (Daniel 7:26-27). No rapture off the planet.

    26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
    27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

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