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Thread: What is the blindness refering to

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    What is the blindness refering to

    John 12: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them"

    Isaiah 6:17 "O Lord, why has thou made us to err from your ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear?....

    Given the miracles that Jesus Christ performed, his death and subsequent resurrection:-

    • why is Israel still not convinced that he is the promised Messiah and Son of God?
    • why is their eyes still blind and their hearts hardened despite the open nature of life and death of our Lord Jesus?
    • since Jesus did nothing in secret, and Isaiah 6:9 for-warned the hardening of their hearts (they read this in their Torah), why are they still not persuaded of their folly?
    Last edited by Trivalee; Jul 16th 2014 at 01:55 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: WHAT IS THE BLINDENESS AND VEIL THAT HAS HARDENED THE HEARTS ISRAEL?

    John 12: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them"

    Isaiah 6:17 "O Lord, why has thou made us to err from your ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear?....

    Given the miracles that Jesus Christ performed, his death and subsequent resurrection:-


    • why is Israel still not convinced that he is the promised Messiah and Son of God?
    • why is their eyes still blind and their hearts hardened despite the open nature of life and death of our Lord Jesus?
    • since Jesus did nothing in secret, and Isaiah 6:9 for-warned the hardening of their hearts (they read this in their Torah), why are they still not persuaded of their folly?
    [/QUOTE]

    The blindness and veil on Israel will remain until they accept that salvation comes by faith in Christ and no longer by their works or good deeds. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are you saved through faith and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" Israel's rejection of Jesus Christ is at the heart of their continued exclusion from the grace that abounds in Christ. By mercy God however, continues to embrace and shower his grace upon the 'election' of the Jews that has turned to Christ by faith.

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    Re: WHAT IS THE BLINDENESS AND VEIL THAT HAS HARDENED THE HEARTS ISRAEL?

    The blindness and veil on Israel will remain until they accept that salvation comes by faith in Christ and no longer by their works or good deeds. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are you saved through faith and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" Israel's rejection of Jesus Christ is at the heart of their continued exclusion from the grace that abounds in Christ. By mercy God however, continues to embrace and shower his grace upon the 'election' of the Jews that has turned to Christ by faith.[/QUOTE]


    Hi and Jews can still be saved today as referenced in 2 Cor 3:16 , don't we see !!

    dan p

  4. #4

    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    This was a fulfill the words of prophecy of Isaiah in that time.

    (John 12:37 KJV) But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

    (John 12:38 KJV) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

    (John 12:39 KJV) Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

    (John 12:40 KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    (John 12:41 KJV) These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    (John 12:42 KJV) Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

    (John 12:43 KJV) For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.


    There is another blindness as well that the NT writes about...

    (2 Cor 4:4 KJV) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    (2 Cor 4:5 KJV) For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    John 12: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them"

    Isaiah 6:17 "O Lord, why has thou made us to err from your ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear?....

    Given the miracles that Jesus Christ performed, his death and subsequent resurrection:-

    • why is Israel still not convinced that he is the promised Messiah and Son of God?
    • why is their eyes still blind and their hearts hardened despite the open nature of life and death of our Lord Jesus?
    • since Jesus did nothing in secret, and Isaiah 6:9 for-warned the hardening of their hearts (they read this in their Torah), why are they still not persuaded of their folly?

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    Re: WHAT IS THE BLINDENESS AND VEIL THAT HAS HARDENED THE HEARTS ISRAEL?

    Quote Originally Posted by dan p View Post
    The blindness and veil on Israel will remain until they accept that salvation comes by faith in Christ and no longer by their works or good deeds. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are you saved through faith and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" Israel's rejection of Jesus Christ is at the heart of their continued exclusion from the grace that abounds in Christ. By mercy God however, continues to embrace and shower his grace upon the 'election' of the Jews that has turned to Christ by faith.

    Hi and Jews can still be saved today as referenced in 2 Cor 3:16 , don't we see !!

    dan p[/QUOTE]

    Indeed, a trickle of Jews are seeing the light and coming to Jesus, but it's disappointingly at a pretty slow pace. But a majority of them will convert at the end times.

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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    This was a fulfill the words of prophecy of Isaiah in that time.

    (John 12:37 KJV) But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

    (John 12:38 KJV) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

    (John 12:39 KJV) Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

    (John 12:40 KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    (John 12:41 KJV) These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    (John 12:42 KJV) Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

    (John 12:43 KJV) For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.


    There is another blindness as well that the NT writes about...

    (2 Cor 4:4 KJV) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    (2 Cor 4:5 KJV) For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
    The NT Apostles paraphrased Isaiah's prophecy. Well done.

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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    John 12: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them"

    Isaiah 6:17 "O Lord, why has thou made us to err from your ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear?....

    Given the miracles that Jesus Christ performed, his death and subsequent resurrection:-

    • why is Israel still not convinced that he is the promised Messiah and Son of God?
    • why is their eyes still blind and their hearts hardened despite the open nature of life and death of our Lord Jesus?
    • since Jesus did nothing in secret, and Isaiah 6:9 for-warned the hardening of their hearts (they read this in their Torah), why are they still not persuaded of their folly?
    I believe nations go through cycles--they go through up cycles and down cycles. Israel was in a down cycle when Christ came the 1st time. In fact, Israel was at her worst when Christ came the 1st time.

    So in this worst down cycle Israel, at the 1st coming of Christ, had been making bad decisions for generations. It is called "leavening the whole lump." Nations rise and nations fall. There is for a time a new-found excitement in building a nation. But afterwards, when things get comfortable, there is a gradual retrogression, a slide into the common denominator of sin. The sin tendency is our human weakness, and we tend towards our weaknesses. Unless we are "girded" for battle, we are like the boiled frog--we don't recognize the changing temperature of the water. We get boiled!

    So Israel had been making bad decisions, compromising for relatives and friends, making excuses for their sins, and then becoming complicit with them in their sins. The mores and values in the society were changing. The Law was rationalized and reinterpreted. Formal religion replaced genuine, substantial religion.

    At the end of this bad decision-making people ask God, Why did you let us make all these bad decisions? Why now do we feel enslaved to sin, and compelled to do things that lead us into the abyss? Obviously, the answer is that God did not initiate the process--He only completes the process of rebellion by pointing people to their own self-determined destiny. We don't have a right to make bad decisions, and then benefit from them. God forces us down the path of the sinner once we ourselves have chosen that path!

    Israel became the prototype for all nations. Even the Christian nations have gone down the path Israel went down. Christian nations turn to formal religion, give wide latitude for humanism and sin, and then ask why God let revolution destroy harmony in the Christian world? It is that Christians capitulate to sin, in particular when they are not "girded" for spiritual battle. They are not prepared to meet the temptations of sin, and did not equip themselves with the means of doing spiritual warfare. We simply must learn the deep truths of the gospel, how to die to ourselves, how to defeat our own pride, and how to cultivate great love for Christ.

    But God restores nations, after they have gone down the wrong path, and suffer for it. Israel will, I believe, be restored. This will take place when Christ returns. Christian nations also have shown they can recover. There have been revivals and reformations. Ultimately, I believe Christianity will be restored among the nations at Christ's return.

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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    John 12: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them"

    Isaiah 6:17 "O Lord, why has thou made us to err from your ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear?....

    Given the miracles that Jesus Christ performed, his death and subsequent resurrection:-

    • why is Israel still not convinced that he is the promised Messiah and Son of God?
    • why is their eyes still blind and their hearts hardened despite the open nature of life and death of our Lord Jesus?
    • since Jesus did nothing in secret, and Isaiah 6:9 for-warned the hardening of their hearts (they read this in their Torah), why are they still not persuaded of their folly?
    I think we can get an inkling of the tragedy of Israel's plight in Romans 1:18-32. God is a generous and long suffering God, but once the truth is set before a man's eyes and he refuses it KNOWINGLY, God responds by removing their normal sensibilities. It reads;

    18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."


    It was difficult not to highlight every part of this passage. But we see that once a man or woman "HOLDS THE TRUTH", but HOLDS IT IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, God will respond by darkening their minds. So also with Israel. Their prophets had laid forth nearly a thousand prophecies concerning their Messiah. Over three hundred and thirty of them were fulfilled before the Israelite's eyes, yet they called Him an Imposter and His power that of Beelzebub. Added to this the Elders sought by illegal means to kill Him, and got the crowds to bay for His blood. God's response is;

    "So! You refuse the witness of your own eyes. You refuse the prophets and the exact fulfilling of their sayings and writings of hundreds of years before. THEN I WILL HAND YOU OVER TO A DARKENED MIND AND CAUSE YOU TO DO EVEN WORSE."

    And this WORSE thing is still before the Jews. Not only will they refuse the testimony of the disciples of Jesus, but when one imposter, the Beast, with his "signs and lying wonders" (2nd Thess.2:9), is set before them, THEY ACCEPT HIM AND HIS EFFIGY IN THEIR MIDST. What a tragedy!

    I have been a Christian since I was 28 years old. I have seen a few things in the interim years. One thing that I have seen is some of my fellow Christians refuse a direct statement of scripture, and 10 years down the line their lives are a singular mess. They go from darkness to darkness and tragedy to tragedy. We also have posters on this Forum who refuse direct statements of scripture. What will be their end?

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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe nations go through cycles--they go through up cycles and down cycles. Israel was in a down cycle when Christ came the 1st time. In fact, Israel was at her worst when Christ came the 1st time.

    So in this worst down cycle Israel, at the 1st coming of Christ, had been making bad decisions for generations. It is called "leavening the whole lump." Nations rise and nations fall. There is for a time a new-found excitement in building a nation. But afterwards, when things get comfortable, there is a gradual retrogression, a slide into the common denominator of sin. The sin tendency is our human weakness, and we tend towards our weaknesses. Unless we are "girded" for battle, we are like the boiled frog--we don't recognize the changing temperature of the water. We get boiled!

    So Israel had been making bad decisions, compromising for relatives and friends, making excuses for their sins, and then becoming complicit with them in their sins. The mores and values in the society were changing. The Law was rationalized and reinterpreted. Formal religion replaced genuine, substantial religion.

    At the end of this bad decision-making people ask God, Why did you let us make all these bad decisions? Why now do we feel enslaved to sin, and compelled to do things that lead us into the abyss? Obviously, the answer is that God did not initiate the process--He only completes the process of rebellion by pointing people to their own self-determined destiny. We don't have a right to make bad decisions, and then benefit from them. God forces us down the path of the sinner once we ourselves have chosen that path!

    Israel became the prototype for all nations. Even the Christian nations have gone down the path Israel went down. Christian nations turn to formal religion, give wide latitude for humanism and sin, and then ask why God let revolution destroy harmony in the Christian world? It is that Christians capitulate to sin, in particular when they are not "girded" for spiritual battle. They are not prepared to meet the temptations of sin, and did not equip themselves with the means of doing spiritual warfare. We simply must learn the deep truths of the gospel, how to die to ourselves, how to defeat our own pride, and how to cultivate great love for Christ.

    But God restores nations, after they have gone down the wrong path, and suffer for it. Israel will, I believe, be restored. This will take place when Christ returns. Christian nations also have shown they can recover. There have been revivals and reformations. Ultimately, I believe Christianity will be restored among the nations at Christ's return.
    You couldn't have put it better. But it is also worthy of note, that despite their propensity to bad decision making, Israel still doesn't appear to recognize this trait and has continued in their downward spiral precipitated by these ill-informed decisions. Indeed, there is a prophecy concerning their national redemption even though some Christians reject it as untrue. The question is, will it only take divine intervention for them to realize their error?

    Paul's profound argument in Romans 11 about his People Israel, testifies of their national revival at the end of the age. I feel, however, disheartened about Gentile nations that continue to shun the grace and opportunity that abound for now to come to Christ.

    Paul seems to indicate that the hope for Gentiles is now because "the fall and diminishing of Israel" should be accounted as "riches" for the Gentiles and their "casting away", the reconciling of the world. But sadly, many of the world given this opportunity have rejected it in pursuit of materialism.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Unless my understanding of the above is incorrect, the focus may shift from the Gentiles to Israel when Messiah returns. Presumably, the majority of Gentile nations willing to be saved would have come into Christ. I stand to be corrected if my interpretation of the text is incorrect.

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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think we can get an inkling of the tragedy of Israel's plight in Romans 1:18-32. God is a generous and long suffering God, but once the truth is set before a man's eyes and he refuses it KNOWINGLY, God responds by removing their normal sensibilities. It reads;

    18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."


    It was difficult not to highlight every part of this passage. But we see that once a man or woman "HOLDS THE TRUTH", but HOLDS IT IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, God will respond by darkening their minds. So also with Israel. Their prophets had laid forth nearly a thousand prophecies concerning their Messiah. Over three hundred and thirty of them were fulfilled before the Israelite's eyes, yet they called Him an Imposter and His power that of Beelzebub. Added to this the Elders sought by illegal means to kill Him, and got the crowds to bay for His blood. God's response is;

    "So! You refuse the witness of your own eyes. You refuse the prophets and the exact fulfilling of their sayings and writings of hundreds of years before. THEN I WILL HAND YOU OVER TO A DARKENED MIND AND CAUSE YOU TO DO EVEN WORSE."

    And this WORSE thing is still before the Jews. Not only will they refuse the testimony of the disciples of Jesus, but when one imposter, the Beast, with his "signs and lying wonders" (2nd Thess.2:9), is set before them, THEY ACCEPT HIM AND HIS EFFIGY IN THEIR MIDST. What a tragedy!

    I have been a Christian since I was 28 years old. I have seen a few things in the interim years. One thing that I have seen is some of my fellow Christians refuse a direct statement of scripture, and 10 years down the line their lives are a singular mess. They go from darkness to darkness and tragedy to tragedy. We also have posters on this Forum who refuse direct statements of scripture. What will be their end?
    I am TOTALLY in agreement with your views here.

    However, I would like to point out that all hope is not lost for Israel if my understanding of Romans 11 is correct. That Israel has fallen by rejecting the "truth" prophecied by a procession of prophets and ultimately, confirmed in the embodiment of Christ whom they rejected is not in question.

    But I do believe that after his indictment (of all, not only Israel) of those that reject Christ, Paul seems to balance his case in Romans 11:12 "that their fall and diminishing is for the riches of the world". With this, I somehow believe there is a subtle inference in Paul's statement that they would be restored, albeit, not all but the chosen elect in their ranks to fulfill God's promise by prophet Ezekiel of their redemption.

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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    John 12: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them"

    Isaiah 6:17 "O Lord, why has thou made us to err from your ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear?....

    Given the miracles that Jesus Christ performed, his death and subsequent resurrection:-

    • why is Israel still not convinced that he is the promised Messiah and Son of God?
    • why is their eyes still blind and their hearts hardened despite the open nature of life and death of our Lord Jesus?
    • since Jesus did nothing in secret, and Isaiah 6:9 for-warned the hardening of their hearts (they read this in their Torah), why are they still not persuaded of their folly?
    According to God's word to Isaiah, God blinded Israel on purpose to serve his goals.

    Isaiah 6:
    8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 He said, “Go, and tell this people:

    ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
    Keep on looking, but do not understand.’
    10 “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
    Their ears dull,
    And their eyes dim,
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    Hear with their ears,
    Understand with their hearts,
    And return and be healed.”
    11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered,

    “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,
    Houses are without people
    And the land is utterly desolate,
    12 “The Lord has removed men far away,
    And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
    13 “Yet there will be a tenth portion in it,
    And it will again be subject to burning,
    Like a terebinth or an oak
    Whose stump remains when it is felled.
    The holy seed is its stump.”

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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am TOTALLY in agreement with your views here.

    However, I would like to point out that all hope is not lost for Israel if my understanding of Romans 11 is correct. That Israel has fallen by rejecting the "truth" prophecied by a procession of prophets and ultimately, confirmed in the embodiment of Christ whom they rejected is not in question.

    But I do believe that after his indictment (of all, not only Israel) of those that reject Christ, Paul seems to balance his case in Romans 11:12 "that their fall and diminishing is for the riches of the world". With this, I somehow believe there is a subtle inference in Paul's statement that they would be restored, albeit, not all but the chosen elect in their ranks to fulfill God's promise by prophet Ezekiel of their redemption.
    Oh yes. On this we can agree. Israel has the glorious future predicted by so many of their prophets. My understanding is that the while Israel are restored to leading nation among nations, they forfeit the Kingdom (Matt.21:43). That is, in the Millennial Kingdom they will be restored to their Land, have Emmanuel dwelling in their midst, surround and serve Him, and have the New Covenant that will ensure obedience. But they are SUBJECTS in Christ's Kingdom, not co-kings like the Church. Also, if Daniel 12:1-2 is taken literally, there will be those of Israel who spend the Millennium (and further) in disgrace. No doubt Saul and Solomon will be in some kind of disgrace as they went against God's instructions and weakened Israel. And what about Ahab? But then, I believe, if the parables show the Church judged, then many of us Christians will also be in disgrace in the coming Kingdom.

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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You couldn't have put it better. But it is also worthy of note, that despite their propensity to bad decision making, Israel still doesn't appear to recognize this trait and has continued in their downward spiral precipitated by these ill-informed decisions. Indeed, there is a prophecy concerning their national redemption even though some Christians reject it as untrue. The question is, will it only take divine intervention for them to realize their error?

    Paul's profound argument in Romans 11 about his People Israel, testifies of their national revival at the end of the age. I feel, however, disheartened about Gentile nations that continue to shun the grace and opportunity that abound for now to come to Christ.

    Paul seems to indicate that the hope for Gentiles is now because "the fall and diminishing of Israel" should be accounted as "riches" for the Gentiles and their "casting away", the reconciling of the world. But sadly, many of the world given this opportunity have rejected it in pursuit of materialism.

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Unless my understanding of the above is incorrect, the focus may shift from the Gentiles to Israel when Messiah returns. Presumably, the majority of Gentile nations willing to be saved would have come into Christ. I stand to be corrected if my interpretation of the text is incorrect.
    Good question, and I've already thought long and hard about it. This is purely my speculation. I think that when nations go through their "death spiral" what happens is a nation gets overrun by what I call "the goats." Unbelievers finally get their "rights" and "freedoms," and Christian truth gets crushed.

    The only way I believe God can remedy this is by judgment. And this judgment will be aimed at restoration if the founders and members of that nation had been praying Christians! Israel had forefathers and great saints in their country, and they are still alive and in heaven waiting on God to answer their prayers for their country!

    And so, God will have to bring tremendous judgment both against Israel and all Christian countries who have gone down this familiar path of backsliding and apostasy. A great number will likely die, in order to remove the power base of sin that had been entrenched in the country.

    But afterwards, God can rebuild with the humble, who put forward that the ways of sin have caused all of the chaos, problems, and judgment. Then the people of those nations will listen to their prophets of correction, will repent and reestablish Christian truth. Both Israel and the Christian nations will all return to Christ and reestablish their nations on Christian truth.

    But great question!

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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    According to God's word to Isaiah, God blinded Israel on purpose to serve his goals.

    Isaiah 6:
    8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 He said, “Go, and tell this people:

    ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
    Keep on looking, but do not understand.’
    10 “Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
    Their ears dull,
    And their eyes dim,
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    Hear with their ears,
    Understand with their hearts,
    And return and be healed.”
    11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered,

    “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,
    Houses are without people
    And the land is utterly desolate,
    12 “The Lord has removed men far away,
    And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
    13 “Yet there will be a tenth portion in it,
    And it will again be subject to burning,
    Like a terebinth or an oak
    Whose stump remains when it is felled.
    The holy seed is its stump.”
    This is akin to the chicken and egg question. Since God is behind their blindness, why do we blame them then?

  15. #15
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    Re: What is the blindness refering to

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Oh yes. On this we can agree. Israel has the glorious future predicted by so many of their prophets. My understanding is that the while Israel are restored to leading nation among nations, they forfeit the Kingdom (Matt.21:43). That is, in the Millennial Kingdom they will be restored to their Land, have Emmanuel dwelling in their midst, surround and serve Him, and have the New Covenant that will ensure obedience. But they are SUBJECTS in Christ's Kingdom, not co-kings like the Church. Also, if Daniel 12:1-2 is taken literally, there will be those of Israel who spend the Millennium (and further) in disgrace. No doubt Saul and Solomon will be in some kind of disgrace as they went against God's instructions and weakened Israel. And what about Ahab? But then, I believe, if the parables show the Church judged, then many of us Christians will also be in disgrace in the coming Kingdom.
    Very true. But I would say that even though the prophecy of Dan 12:1-2 concerns Israel, nevertheless, verse 2 has a wider application. It corroborates John 5:28-29 and affects the Gentiles also.

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