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Thread: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

  1. #16
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is a common perception among Christians that God needed to be appeased by Christ's death. The death of Christ paid the just deserts for the sins of men. If I willingly enter your house and trash the contents thereof with an axe, I have 4 problems
    1. I must pay for the restoration of your house says the judge
    2. You would angry - and rightfully so (this is outside the realm of the judge)
    3. We would be enemies - and rightfully so (this is outside the realm of the judge)
    4. I would still face a jail sentence (this not a judicial compensation like point 1, but the wages for breaking the Law)

    So when Christ (1) judicially paid for our sins He still had to
    (2) appease God's anger - that is, propitiate
    (3) reconcile us to God - to go from enemy to friend
    (4) go from death (the sentence) to life

    God was not obliged to accept any of the last three. That is, Christ's death could have fulfilled all judicial requirements and we would have been still in a miserable condition. That God's anger is appeased, that we are reconciled to God and that we are given eternal life is GRACE by MERCY over an above what Law demanded. So God's GRACE by MERCY is never in doubt. But first the legal requirements of justice HAD to be settled. And this was settled in a most brutal and all-encompassing way from Gethsemane to Golgotha.
    Jesus didn't pay for our sins. If he did, then salvation wouldn't be based on mercy, but on justice. God forgives our sins, he doesn't accept payment for them, either from Jesus or from us.

  2. #17
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Jesus didn't pay for our sins. If he did, then salvation wouldn't be based on mercy, but on justice. God forgives our sins, he doesn't accept payment for them, either from Jesus or from us.
    say WHAT?........
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

  3. #18
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    say WHAT?........
    He has a point... we use the word "paid" but did Jesus really go pay the Father what was needed to keep Him from sending us to hell? How is that not a bribe? How is that not appeasing an angry God with payment? Isn't that exactly what the pagans did... send their kids through the fires of Molech to appease that false god? What Jesus did was pay for sins IN THE FORM OF reversing the curse, becoming what we are so we could become like him. But what he didn't do was hand over currency, payment in this sense came in the form of perfection tasting death and death not being able to contain perfection. He has now, through that, earned the right to perfect whomever he wills and who he wills are those who turn their hearts toward him... but "payment" in a "literal sense" is not what happened. That word is used as a metaphor to depict the work he did.

  4. #19
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Jesus didn't pay for our sins. If he did, then salvation wouldn't be based on mercy, but on justice. God forgives our sins, he doesn't accept payment for them, either from Jesus or from us.
    Exactly and that is why mercy triumphs over justice ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  5. #20
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by LandShark View Post
    He has a point... we use the word "paid" but did Jesus really go pay the Father what was needed to keep Him from sending us to hell? How is that not a bribe? How is that not appeasing an angry God with payment? Isn't that exactly what the pagans did... send their kids through the fires of Molech to appease that false god? What Jesus did was pay for sins IN THE FORM OF reversing the curse, becoming what we are so we could become like him. But what he didn't do was hand over currency, payment in this sense came in the form of perfection tasting death and death not being able to contain perfection. He has now, through that, earned the right to perfect whomever he wills and who he wills are those who turn their hearts toward him... but "payment" in a "literal sense" is not what happened. That word is used as a metaphor to depict the work he did.
    When I started this thread I did not expect it to become an examination of the atonement but that it appears is what it has become. Yes Jesus triumphed over evil/death/sin that is what He accomplished.

    Hebrews 2:14-15 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  6. #21
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    I do believe the Gospel many times in these times is described in penal substitution terms ... and really when I read the NT for the first time myself it is not at all how I understood it. I see/saw this cosmic battle between good/God and evil/satan and how man was "captured" by satan and fed satan's lies concerning God. I see Jesus coming and revealing the true nature of God and setting those who believed Him free from the bondage of satan/sin. Christ suffered much because of this messed up world and the people messed up from the influence of satan/evil. I don't see His suffering as to have been a replacement payment for us to avoid suffering. As a matter of fact I see that we are called to suffer as He has:

    Romans 8:14-17 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  7. #22
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    James 2:13 ... mercy triumphs over judgment

    The Gospel I understand as mercy ... is that how we usually present it. Or do we focus on judgment? I see God's "heart" focusing on mercy ... not judgment.

    This scripture also ties in for me about this and speaks much to me ...

    2 Corinthians 5:18-19 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,not counting their trespasses against them and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    I'm quoting this first post again ... when we present the Gospel as penal substitution are we not focusing on judgment? Do we present the gospel as ministers of reconciliation saying "that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them". Because I think that is the Good News ... "that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,not counting their trespasses against them." "Mercy triumphs over judgment" ...
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  8. #23
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Penal substitution implies that punishment MUST BE GIVEN and that implies that judgment triumphs mercy. And again not everyone agrees with penal substitution. This conversation we are having back and forth started from my comment concerning the following which you wrote:

    Again I don't see in Scripture where righteousness is said to be the number one attribute of God ... and that because of that He cannot administer mercy.
    OK. Let us leave the penal substitution if not all believe it. Each one can answer for themselves then why an innocent Christ had to go through all that horror.

    Let us address my statement above. The answer is easy.
    1. Does God, at ALL times, judge righteously? The answer is yes. If He once judged unrighteously you would have to prove it from scripture, and then God's demand on us to be righteous would be vain as He is not righteous.
    2. Does God at ALL times extend mercy? NO! It is all answered in Romans 9:14-18

      "14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
      15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
      16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
      17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
      18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

    Righteous Judgement is 100% established, mercy is SELECTIVE.

  9. #24
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Jesus didn't pay for our sins. If he did, then salvation wouldn't be based on mercy, but on justice. God forgives our sins, he doesn't accept payment for them, either from Jesus or from us.
    But I do declare that salvation IS BASED ON JUSTICE. It is based on what happened to our Lord during His first advent. Our Lord takes upon Himself our JUST Deserts that we may be saved from them. It is then administered IN MERCY (Rom.11:30; 1st Cor.7:25; 2nd Cor.4:1 etc. etc.). The foundation of our salvation is Christ PENALIZED instead of us - to satisfy justice. Thereafter, BASED on the PENALTY that God judged JUST, MERCY is dished out in portions that God decides. In all instances it is "we have received mercy", or "obtained mercy".

  10. #25
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Exactly and that is why mercy triumphs over justice ...
    I notice that no one has taken me to task for exposing this verse within its context. It seems to me that setting up a doctrine based on one verse, and that outside of its context, is the norm for the majority.

  11. #26

    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But I do declare that salvation IS BASED ON JUSTICE. It is based on what happened to our Lord during His first advent. Our Lord takes upon Himself our JUST Deserts that we may be saved from them. It is then administered IN MERCY (Rom.11:30; 1st Cor.7:25; 2nd Cor.4:1 etc. etc.). The foundation of our salvation is Christ PENALIZED instead of us - to satisfy justice. Thereafter, BASED on the PENALTY that God judged JUST, MERCY is dished out in portions that God decides. In all instances it is "we have received mercy", or "obtained mercy".
    Salvation is not based on justice, but is by grace. Grace and judgment/justice are two different things altogether: the former requires/involves no work, the later requires/involves a certain work. Of course, work by God/Christ.

    Note that justification by grace is not about fulfilling any legal requirement, but about the administration of God's self-activating power and mercy to candidates for salvation.

    The foundation of our salvation, therefore, is the Christ administering grace - to showcase loving kindness and mercy (see Ephesians 2).

    The foundation of our righteousness (which is of faith) is the Lord Jesus Christ giving faith by speaking the words of faith. That faith of Christ would have been in vain if He was not penalized for us - that is, if there was no death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    If salvation was solely based on mercy then there would not have been the need for Christ to die. The Father could have simply said "I forgive all" without any need for Christ's shed blood,death and resurrection. God,in His mercy,sent the Son to fulfill His will and satisfy His justice by His sacrifice for us. In this was mercy triumphs over justice.
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

  13. #28

    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    If salvation was solely based on mercy then there would not have been the need for Christ to die. The Father could have simply said "I forgive all" without any need for Christ's shed blood,death and resurrection. God,in His mercy,sent the Son to fulfill His will and satisfy His justice by His sacrifice for us. In this was mercy triumphs over justice.
    Christ died so that the promise of faith might hold/fulfill.

    Mercy (of grace) triumphs over justice (of the righteousness of faith). One can also assert that grace triumphs over faith or grace is greater than faith.

  14. #29
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Let us leave the penal substitution if not all believe it. Each one can answer for themselves then why an innocent Christ had to go through all that horror.

    Let us address my statement above. The answer is easy.
    1. Does God, at ALL times, judge righteously? The answer is yes. If He once judged unrighteously you would have to prove it from scripture, and then God's demand on us to be righteous would be vain as He is not righteous.
    2. Does God at ALL times extend mercy? NO! It is all answered in Romans 9:14-18

      "14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
      15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
      16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
      17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
      18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

    Righteous Judgement is 100% established, mercy is SELECTIVE.
    I wouldn't say mercy was His number one attribute either ... if I would have to say anything was His number one attribute it would be Holiness. And for Scripture to say "mercy triumphs over judgment" there is a comparison here where mercy triumphs over judgment.

    Let's look at a parable concerning this:

    Matthew 18

    23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

    24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.

    25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

    26 So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’

    27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

    28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’

    29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’

    30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

    31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

    33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’

    34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

    35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


    Do you notice the man's debt was "forgiven" ... no one paid His debt for him. Christ through His victory pleads for mercy for us and Christ's pleas are heard, Christ didn't pay our debt for us, He pleads for mercy for us. And this parable goes very well with the "mercy triumphs over judgment" scripture especially when you look at it in context.

    James 2:13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

    Both speak to the importance of us being merciful to others.
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  15. #30
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    Re: "mercy triumphs over judgment"

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Christ died so that the promise of faith might hold/fulfill.

    Mercy (of grace) triumphs over justice (of the righteousness of faith). One can also assert that grace triumphs over faith or grace is greater than faith.
    You still haven't answered the question. If there was no justice that had to be fulfilled why did Christ have to die on the cross? Why didn't the Father just say "I forgive all" without putting the Son through His ordeal?
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

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