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Thread: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

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    Lightbulb Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    Daniel 2 is a crucial prophecy to understand as it ends with God's Kingdom established on earth.
    To start at the end - there are two ways to interpret the timing of the Rock striking the statue:
    1) It is when Jesus comes to earth the first time and conquers death - so refers to around 34 AD
    2) It is when Jesus comes to earth the second time and rules the earth - so still future from now

    I have come to the conclusion that it refers to 2) When Jesus returns.
    The main reason for this are the fact that when the Rock strikes, the other kingdoms are pulverised and become no more. This didn't happen in 34 AD or any time since.

    This then would mean that Daniel 2 is a prophecy that incorporates the key kingdoms from that time (the head of gold which is Nebuchadnezzar) until the kingdom that is in power when He returns.
    If however we find that this prophecy doesn't include those kingdoms then it would suggest that my base assumption above, that the event of the Rock smashing the feet, is in fact at His first coming.

    So on to my thoughts as to God hiding truths in plain sight and how many kingdoms are mentioned in Daniel 2. This can then be supported by looking at Dan 7.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    So how many kingdoms are mentioned in Daniel 2?
    The standard answer is 4! This is for the simple reason that 2:40 states there will be a fourth kingdom and makes no mention of a fifth.
    If this is the correct answer then I have to conclude that Daniel 2 points to Jesus first coming.
    Those kingdoms being:
    Babylonian
    Persian
    Greek
    Roman

    So taking everything in this way we should conclude that Dan 2 is NOT an End Times prophecy but actually and End of an Age prophecy, for it ends with the end of the Old Covenant / start of the New.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    I however don't accept that there are ONLY 4 kingdoms in Daniel 2.
    It is true that the third and fourth kingdoms are numbered, but does that mean these are the only kingdoms?
    Well the first and second aren't numbered, but they are clearly there, so is there a fifth and even sixth kingdom in Daniel 2.

    Let's look at the evidence WITHIN Daniel 2 first, and then afterwards we can look for corroboration from other scriptures, such as Dan 7.
    (I would ask you deal with any logical points I raise in regards to Dan 2 by ONLY using Dan 2 in this thread)

    So onto the make up of Daniel's prophecy. We find (as we do in many of his prophecies) that there are four parts to the prophecy:
    1) The timing and location of the prophecy - who received etc.
    2) The description of the vision
    3) The explanation of the vision
    4) A response to the vision

    So as we look at this prophecy we need to grasp each part and get what it is telling us.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    1) The timing and location etc.
    This is explained to us as occurring during the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign. The problem is that Neb came to power in 605 / 4 BC. Which would mean that this vision is from 603 BC. Yet Jerusalem was only captured in 597 BC. So what happened? Well it seems that when defeated Pharaoh at Carchemish in 607 BC he also defeated Judah and so the first wave of exiles was taken, which included Daniel and his friends.
    You can look up various passages in Kings and Chronicles as well as Dan 1 to tie this all in.
    This vision is one received NOT by Dan but by Neb, though later Daniel is given the vision too. This happens throughout Neb's rule and Dan doesn't have any visions of his own. Dan only receives his own vision under the final king of Babylon - Belshazzar.
    Bel ruled 50 years later.
    So Dan is a young man of maybe 16 - 20 in Dan 2.
    It is also interesting to note that whilst these visions are given to non-Jews the language used in Daniel is Aramaic. When the vision is for Daniel and Jews the language used in the writing is in Hebrew.

    So to conclude, a vision given to a non-Jew around 603 BC and written in the Book of Daniel in Aramaic (the inter-ethnic language of Babylonia)

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    2) The description of the vision (verses 31 - 35)
    v31 A great image: mighty and exceedingly bright; standing; frightening
    v32 & v33
    Head - Gold;
    Chest and arms - Silver;
    Belly and thighs - Bronze;
    Legs - Iron;
    Feet - partly Iron and partly Clay
    v34 A stone cut out which strikes the Feet, and broke them in pieces
    v35 THEN Iron, Clay, Bronze, Silver and Gold were broken in pieces. The stone fills the earth.

    So I want to highlight something in this description. Maybe you see what I am getting at already, but here I will try to make plain what I have come to understand.
    In verse 31 this image describes a statue which is stood up - this is important for understanding other prophecy.
    In verse 32 & 33 we have five separate parts of the statue mentioned. I'll list them for you:
    Head, Chest and arms, Belly and Thighs, Legs, Feet.
    Count them again - the total number of parts is 7, but the number of grouped parts is 5.
    Notice also that these five group parts are of different materials:
    Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron, Clay (this last is mixed, but is an additional material)
    So 5 groups and 5 materials.
    In verse 34 we are told that the Rock strikes the 5th kingdom - the Feet. It doesn't strike the Legs, but the Feet.
    In verse 35 we are again told about the 5 different materials, just to make sure we grasp this point and note these kingdoms are broken AFTER the Feet.

    So going ONLY on the description we should conclude there are 5 kingdoms. This would mean my original assumption is confirmed that it speaks of a kingdom(s) AFTER Rome and thus AFTER Jesus' first coming.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    3) The explanation of the vision (verses 37 - 45)
    v37 & 38 Dan explains the image and the first kingdom. He uses the same language as that in Genesis to show a connection with that God ordained role, but with the addition of ruling over man (which is not God ordained). So there is a difference between Men's Kingdoms (who rule over men as well as the earth) and God's kingdom where He rules over men, but men don't rule over each other.
    We also find in this verse the same pattern as used in the description:
    Head - Gold.
    v39 doesn't mention much about the next kingdom, neither its parts nor material, but we can deduce which one as we are also told about the third of bronze.
    So we have the pattern continued as used in the description:
    Chest and arms - Silver;
    Belly and thighs - Bronze.
    v40 mentions a fourth kingdom which is strong as iron. Makes no inclusion of clay. This is a strong kingdom and is of Iron. So we find this fourth kingdom is Legs - Iron.
    v41 mentions Feet and Toes made of mixed material. It isn't given the same explanation as the previous kingdom, but is explained separately. So we find a fifth kingdom with clay and iron mixed.
    v42 & 43 mentions Toes alone - it is of the same substance as the Feet, but it has a further explanation added in regards to marriage. So could this be a sixth kingdom or an extension of the fifth (like the thighs are an extension of the Belly of the third kingdom?)
    v44 mentions kings. Well it either means all the kings of all the kingdoms over hundreds of years, which doesn't make much sense, unless God is simply saying during one of those kings, the kingdom is set up. In which case it could be during the bronze or iron or clay or silver or gold. This is a fair interpretation, but I think it is speaking solely of the Toe kingdom which is suggestive of 10 kings - thus all reigning at the same time.
    v45 again mentions 5 materials so we can understand 5 kingdoms.

    So I find the explanation of the vision matches the description of the vision BOTH by confirming the number of kingdoms AND also going into more depth with the last kingdom of Feet and Toes, which is the kingdom that will be on earth when the Rock strikes Man's kingdom(s) and bring them down.

    It is also this last point that reaffirms my original assumption that this Rock is striking at Jesus' return when the kingdoms of the earth become the kingdom of the Lord.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    I will point out that while there are five materials, I think we're only dealing with four Kingdoms.

    These are not the only Kingdoms that hold sway on the earth; greater Kingdoms have come and gone. However, none of those Kingdoms held sway over Israel while it was a nation.

    The nature of the fourth Kingdom is that it has changed. How so? Well, another people have "mixed" in with it. Who are these people? Well, a clue might be found in the word Daniel uses for "mixed": it's 'arab.

    As a verb, it means to mix. However, as a noun, it means steppe dweller. It is the word we use to refer to the people who live on the Arabian steppes: Arabs.

    Since WWII, we have seen an incredible influx of Arabs, i.e., moslems, into Europe. Recently, president obama has seen fit to open the flood gates of America to muslim countries. In Europe, some countries have reached the 20% mark. These immigrants do not mix with the host country. They do make life difficult. Theirs is a totally foreign culture and they wish to impose rather than assimilate. They actually wish to take over from within and look to change the laws to their favor through the ballot box. To this end, they have the highest birth rate and are set to overtake world-wide Christian population by the end of this century.

    Daniel 2 aptly describes the timeline of man's rule on earth. He correctly identifies this particular twist of history whereby nations no longer represent their own indigenous people. While America is a melting pot, this was an exception to the rule of nations, but we used to seek one culture. Now, even America is saddled with two cultures which do not mix.

    This present situation will be destroyed with the coming of Christ on the Day of the Lord.

  8. #8

    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    The stone smashes the feet and the entire statue crumbles.

    This is a violent action, not a subtle one.
    It's being visually clear that the stone DESTROYS all other kingdoms suddenly.... Not a slow take over.

    Which then fills the entire earth.

    This is christs second coming and a complete contradiction to any form of amil logic.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Micaiah View Post
    I will point out that while there are five materials, I think we're only dealing with four Kingdoms.

    These are not the only Kingdoms that hold sway on the earth; greater Kingdoms have come and gone. However, none of those Kingdoms held sway over Israel while it was a nation.
    Well actually NONE of these four kingdoms held sway over Israel as a nation either.
    The Assyrians defeated the Israelites (the Northern Kingdom) and exiled them in 722 BC (I think). So therefore it could be referring solely to those who have ruled over the Jews OR it could mean those who rule over the Land of Israel.

    The nature of the fourth Kingdom is that it has changed. How so? Well, another people have "mixed" in with it. Who are these people? Well, a clue might be found in the word Daniel uses for "mixed": it's 'arab.
    Dan 2 doesn't show a kingdom as "changed". each kingdom is of a specific material / mix of materials. Note that bronze itself is a mix of copper and tin (or is it zinc?)
    So though your point about a "mixed" people is indeed valid and I will quote below, the kingdom itself is seen as being mixed, not a metamorphoses from one kingdom to another. The pattern is very clear in Dan 2, each material succeeds the previous and conquers it in some way. So a change of kingdom isn't an internal change but an external one.

    As a verb, it means to mix. However, as a noun, it means steppe dweller. It is the word we use to refer to the people who live on the Arabian steppes: Arabs.
    This is the word used in the Aramaic.

    Daniel 2 aptly describes the timeline of man's rule on earth. He correctly identifies this particular twist of history whereby nations no longer represent their own indigenous people. While America is a melting pot, this was an exception to the rule of nations, but we used to seek one culture. Now, even America is saddled with two cultures which do not mix.
    This present situation will be destroyed with the coming of Christ on the Day of the Lord.
    Sorry, but I see no America in this prophecy. If we follow the kingdoms then we find the following:
    Babylonia
    Persia
    Macedonia and Greeks (two materials which unite into one which is stronger)
    Rome
    ???

    My question marks are because what the 5th kingdom is what is being discussed.
    My answer though is tied into the point you made above in regards to Arabs.
    The 5th kingdom to rule over the Land of Israel is the Caliphate of the Arabs - which becomes of all muslims.
    This 5th kingdom defeated the final Roman kingdom, conquering Byzantium in 1453. So the pattern continues from kingdom to kingdom, throughout ALL of them.
    Now the 5th kingdom ends when Israel starts to be re-established (from 1917 and following WW1). But it hasn't been conquered by any other kingdom. The Toes aspect of that 5th kingdom has not yet become apparent.
    So we have had the Feet (which continue as Shia and Sunni perhaps), but the Toes are yet to become known.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    The stone smashes the feet and the entire statue crumbles.

    This is a violent action, not a subtle one.
    It's being visually clear that the stone DESTROYS all other kingdoms suddenly.... Not a slow take over.

    Which then fills the entire earth.

    This is christs second coming and a complete contradiction to any form of amil logic.
    I agree the language seems clearly violent.
    There is though a pause in the narrative between the Feet being struck and being smashed and then REST of the statue then crashing down.
    You could consider it like explosives being set off at the foot of a building and then the whole building drops down, or as I see it - the beast's kingdom being destroyed, and then the rest of the kingdoms on the earth also coming under Christ's rule.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Daniel 2 is a crucial prophecy to understand as it ends with God's Kingdom established on earth.
    To start at the end - there are two ways to interpret the timing of the Rock striking the statue:
    1) It is when Jesus comes to earth the first time and conquers death - so refers to around 34 AD
    2) It is when Jesus comes to earth the second time and rules the earth - so still future from now

    I have come to the conclusion that it refers to 2) When Jesus returns.
    The main reason for this are the fact that when the Rock strikes, the other kingdoms are pulverised and become no more. This didn't happen in 34 AD or any time since.

    This then would mean that Daniel 2 is a prophecy that incorporates the key kingdoms from that time (the head of gold which is Nebuchadnezzar) until the kingdom that is in power when He returns.
    If however we find that this prophecy doesn't include those kingdoms then it would suggest that my base assumption above, that the event of the Rock smashing the feet, is in fact at His first coming.

    So on to my thoughts as to God hiding truths in plain sight and how many kingdoms are mentioned in Daniel 2. This can then be supported by looking at Dan 7.
    I believe there are 5 kingdoms in Dan 2. We often try to make 4 so that we can justify the belief that Dan 2 and Dan 7 are speaking of the same thing.

    My opinion for what itís worth is that Dan chapter 2 dream is not the same as the Dan chapter 7 vision. The only link between the two is the last part dealing with the return of Christ and Him setting up His kingdom. Other than that they are completely different.

    The Dan 2 dream is in regards to a general earth history of empires or kingdoms ruled by men to be replaced completely by an everlasting kingdom ruled by God via Christ as seen by the rock destroying the image and filling the earth.

    The Dan 7 vision is more tied to specifically at the time of Christ setting up that kingdom and the four kingdoms represented by the four beasts are kingdoms that exist at the time of Christí return.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    2) The description of the vision (verses 31 - 35)
    v31 A great image: mighty and exceedingly bright; standing; frightening
    v32 & v33
    Head - Gold;
    Chest and arms - Silver;
    Belly and thighs - Bronze;
    Legs - Iron;
    Feet - partly Iron and partly Clay
    v34 A stone cut out which strikes the Feet, and broke them in pieces
    v35 THEN Iron, Clay, Bronze, Silver and Gold were broken in pieces. The stone fills the earth.

    So I want to highlight something in this description. Maybe you see what I am getting at already, but here I will try to make plain what I have come to understand.
    In verse 31 this image describes a statue which is stood up - this is important for understanding other prophecy.
    In verse 32 & 33 we have five separate parts of the statue mentioned. I'll list them for you:
    Head, Chest and arms, Belly and Thighs, Legs, Feet.
    Count them again - the total number of parts is 7, but the number of grouped parts is 5.
    Notice also that these five group parts are of different materials:
    Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron, Clay (this last is mixed, but is an additional material)
    So 5 groups and 5 materials.
    In verse 34 we are told that the Rock strikes the 5th kingdom - the Feet. It doesn't strike the Legs, but the Feet.
    In verse 35 we are again told about the 5 different materials, just to make sure we grasp this point and note these kingdoms are broken AFTER the Feet.

    So going ONLY on the description we should conclude there are 5 kingdoms. This would mean my original assumption is confirmed that it speaks of a kingdom(s) AFTER Rome and thus AFTER Jesus' first coming.


    Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
    38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

    Obviously meaning the first kingdom.

    39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

    Obviously meaning the 2nd and 3rd kingdom the fact it comes right out and says so.

    40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

    Obviously meaning the 4th kingdom the fact it too comes right out and says so.

    41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

    What's missing here? Nowhere in the text does it come right out and obviously say this is the 5th kingdom.

    42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

    The same for here, nowhere does it say this is the 6th kingdom. The way I'm reasoning it then, the feet and toes are part of the 4th kingdom. How many horns does the 4th beast have according to the book of Revelation? 10? How many toes are usually associated with 2 feet? 10. Coincidence or a possible clue? Personally I would look to these 10 horns of the 4th beast as a way to try and explain the 10 toes, rather than concluding a 5th or 6th kingdom is in view here. Even Daniel 7 only mentions 4 kingdoms, well 5 actually, when we throw the everlasting kingdom into the mix.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    I believe there are 5 kingdoms in Dan 2. We often try to make 4 so that we can justify the belief that Dan 2 and Dan 7 are speaking of the same thing.

    My opinion for what it’s worth is that Dan chapter 2 dream is not the same as the Dan chapter 7 vision. The only link between the two is the last part dealing with the return of Christ and Him setting up His kingdom. Other than that they are completely different.

    The Dan 2 dream is in regards to a general earth history of empires or kingdoms ruled by men to be replaced completely by an everlasting kingdom ruled by God via Christ as seen by the rock destroying the image and filling the earth.

    The Dan 7 vision is more tied to specifically at the time of Christ setting up that kingdom and the four kingdoms represented by the four beasts are kingdoms that exist at the time of Christ’ return.
    Actually, once we deal with the question of 4 or 5 kingdoms in Dan 2 then we can deal with the connection between Dan 2 and Dan 7.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Daniel 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
    38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

    Obviously meaning the first kingdom.
    How do we know that as it doesn't specify that it is the first? The answer is obvious and is ALL to do with context. We know because of many things:
    1) The order in which it is mentioned
    2) the description in which it is given
    3) the things mentioned before and after

    So we should apply these same three rules to each of the following kingdoms.

    39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

    Obviously meaning the 2nd and 3rd kingdom the fact it comes right out and says so.
    It clear states the 3rd and implies the 2nd.

    40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

    Obviously meaning the 4th kingdom the fact it too comes right out and says so.
    Indeed it does. But notice how it describes the 4th. That description doesn't tally with a mixed clay and iron kingdom but ONLY with a pure iron kingdom.

    41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

    What's missing here? Nowhere in the text does it come right out and obviously say this is the 5th kingdom.
    Indeed, but it doesn't need to state it as we can use the same rules we have applied to the first kingdom and to the fact that it now discusses a different part of the statue.

    42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

    The same for here, nowhere does it say this is the 6th kingdom. The way I'm reasoning it then, the feet and toes are part of the 4th kingdom.
    I don't see any reasoning - only a requirement for the 5th kingdom to be called as such. Yet language usage doesn't require that at all as we see with the first and second kingdoms.

    How many horns does the 4th beast have according to the book of Revelation? 10? How many toes are usually associated with 2 feet? 10. Coincidence or a possible clue? Personally I would look to these 10 horns of the 4th beast as a way to try and explain the 10 toes, rather than concluding a 5th or 6th kingdom is in view here. Even Daniel 7 only mentions 4 kingdoms, well 5 actually, when we throw the everlasting kingdom into the mix.
    I wondered if you could reason things through from just Dan 2. We can deal with this question in a moment, because I also see a clear connection between 10 Toes and 10 Horns. I also pointed this out in regards to the question of the word kings - to whom is that referring? For me it is obvious that there are 10 kings, which are unified in some way as part of one kingdom.
    We see a similar thing in Dan 7 with the four headed leopard that is one kingdom, but four kings. There is more also from Revelation.

    However I see it is important to build the foundation from the start and not from the end.
    Now could you explain the reasoning in regards to ONLY 4 kingdoms from the description, or from the fact that the Legs aren't struck but the Feet, or that the Toes are of the same kingdom as the Feet, but not of the Legs.

    So to summarise, you have a single reason to claim there are only 4 kingdoms, which is that the fourth is the last number specified.
    I have given multiple reasons why there are 5 kingdoms, as there are 5 distinct materials, 5 groups of body parts, 5 separate descriptions of kingdoms (with a sixth being like the fifth.)
    So at best EVEN when you say 4, you really mean 4+. Especially as I think you agree that the Legs of Iron is Rome so therefore by your definition then Jesus came during that Kingdom - so did He smash that Kingdom to bits? And further if you tie the 4th beast to the 4th kingdom then that means you agree with Amil that the beast was Rome. I had serious problems with that but couldn't see a way through that particular conundrum until I went through Daniel again and read what was stated, what was implied, and what conclusions people jump to though it is in fact unwarranted.

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    Re: Five kingdoms in Daniel 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Daniel 2 is a crucial prophecy to understand as it ends with God's Kingdom established on earth.
    To start at the end - there are two ways to interpret the timing of the Rock striking the statue:
    1) It is when Jesus comes to earth the first time and conquers death - so refers to around 34 AD
    2) It is when Jesus comes to earth the second time and rules the earth - so still future from now

    I have come to the conclusion that it refers to 2) When Jesus returns.
    The main reason for this are the fact that when the Rock strikes, the other kingdoms are pulverised and become no more. This didn't happen in 34 AD or any time since.

    This then would mean that Daniel 2 is a prophecy that incorporates the key kingdoms from that time (the head of gold which is Nebuchadnezzar) until the kingdom that is in power when He returns.
    If however we find that this prophecy doesn't include those kingdoms then it would suggest that my base assumption above, that the event of the Rock smashing the feet, is in fact at His first coming.

    So on to my thoughts as to God hiding truths in plain sight and how many kingdoms are mentioned in Daniel 2. This can then be supported by looking at Dan 7.
    Daniel 2:44
    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    It is quite clear above the kingdom which God set up was in the time of those kings. The kingdoms of those kings did fall each in its own time in the past. This also shows that God has one kingdom the faithful before and after the cross both Jew and gentile.

    If it started with the first coming of Jesus how did it break those kingdoms when they fell before Jesus came?

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