Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 20

Thread: A Historicist View of the Church Age

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    2,733
    Blog Entries
    5

    Post A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Insofar as the question goes, "When is/was prophecy fulfilled" views range from extreme Preterist to extreme Futurist. A rough list looks like this:

    Full Preterist >> Partial Preterist >> Historicist >> Futurist

    The Historicist view used to be quite well known about 150 years ago but it lost ground to modern futurist theories. Unfortunately, a number of oddball sects still follow historicism, but I do not think we should reject it out of hand because of that. The basic idea is that the books of Daniel and Revelation have been gradually unfolding throughout the last 2000 years. (The Church Age)

    Historicists say that the development of church history is observed in definite stages from it's apostolic beginnings to the present modern age. These divisions were prophesied by St. John in the book of Revelation whose seven golden lamp stands represented seven actual churches, which in turn typified seven church ages which were to come. In these last days we may look back in retrospect and the seven churches of do have a resemblance to various sub-ages within Church history.

    Anyway, here is a diagram that outlines the concept. (There are variations to this)

    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    243

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Historicism was THE model for prophetic interpretation used by the great Protestant reformers for 300 years and is still the best model that we have even though it is not as popular today as it once was.

    I do agree with the idea in that OP for the 7 churches but I would not assign the periods of time in that exact manner. we are now in the period of Laodicea.

    Still the idea that the 7 churches are seven periods of time going from the days of John until the end is correct.

  3. #3

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    There is a truth to historicism and discounting it through another point of view like futurism is the mistake we make. They are both true but by themselves not complete. Preterism has truth also. They all have a perspective that can be argued but the problem our minds have is seeing them all as one cyclical reality. Is, was and is to come is a theme in Revelation ch 1.

    There isn't anything that will happen during the revelation that hasn't happened on some level through history. Nothing new under the sun. It's the quickness it will come upon us and the intensity and inability to do anything about it that will have the mighty the strong both great and small hiding and calling for death and not finding it. Intense like never before in all history. That's the future but these things happen today and have happened in the past. Futurism is taken to far as is preterism. A neat clean orderly package to stack scripture in but the revelation will not be so orderly. It is future as is the events in the book past and are.

    We have today and that is the biggest point of all.

    "Work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,075
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by BobRyan View Post
    Historicism was THE model for prophetic interpretation used by the great Protestant reformers for 300 years and is still the best model that we have even though it is not as popular today as it once was.

    I do agree with the idea in that OP for the 7 churches but I would not assign the periods of time in that exact manner. we are now in the period of Laodicea.

    Still the idea that the 7 churches are seven periods of time going from the days of John until the end is correct.
    I posted in another thread how Revelation hangs together. Though I hold to a historicist point of view - I cannot agree that the 7 churches are somehow 7 church ages. This is a nonsense in my view. I am not sure they even represent the various forms a church can be.
    I see them as exactly what they are called out to be, seven living churches that existed in time who were dealing with real situations.
    So what I see is that in Revelation God is saying, this is now, there will be churches in the future too, but all need to get right with these things. So I see the call to hear as being the relevant part for ALL churches throughout the ages.
    This is then HOW God deals with things.
    The letters are about HOW God is dealing with the church.
    The seals are about HOW God deals with the world through history (up to the End Times)
    The Trumpets are about HOW God deals with the world
    The Vials are about HOW God deals with the wicked

    Woven through all this are then various interludes which look at certain things in detail and connect various strands of events together - so we have a strand in relation to the woman in Rev 12:1-6. We have another strand in regards to Satan from verse 7 starting with war and then how that interweaves with the woman, and this all within the overarching skeleton of a chronology of letters, seals, trumpets and vials.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,368

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Insofar as the question goes, "When is/was prophecy fulfilled" views range from extreme Preterist to extreme Futurist. A rough list looks like this:

    Full Preterist >> Partial Preterist >> Historicist >> Futurist

    The Historicist view used to be quite well known about 150 years ago but it lost ground to modern futurist theories. Unfortunately, a number of oddball sects still follow historicism, but I do not think we should reject it out of hand because of that. The basic idea is that the books of Daniel and Revelation have been gradually unfolding throughout the last 2000 years. (The Church Age)

    Historicists say that the development of church history is observed in definite stages from it's apostolic beginnings to the present modern age. These divisions were prophesied by St. John in the book of Revelation whose seven golden lamp stands represented seven actual churches, which in turn typified seven church ages which were to come. In these last days we may look back in retrospect and the seven churches of do have a resemblance to various sub-ages within Church history.

    Anyway, here is a diagram that outlines the concept. (There are variations to this)

    I understand the events of the intermediate Church age to be largely ignored by prophecy. The last event* that has happened was the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. Of course John wrote later than this but John himself did not fulfill any prophecies (except the promised persecution of Christians), although he prophesied much. One could squeeze in the "king who is" and the seventh king "who is to come" from Revelation 17, but the focus there is on one already dead, and who will come at a later stage. From the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple onwards, the next event in prophecy, I judge, will be one or more of the following;
    • A sudden increase in angels mixing with women (predicted by Matthew - "as the days of Noah")
    • A sudden increase of violence and lawlessness (this one could have started already)
    • A sudden increase of Sodomy (predicted by Luke - "as the days of Lot")
    • A rapid apostatizing of the Christians (this one could have started already)
    • A rapture - that is, not a chaotic disappearance of saints like Hollywood renders, but known diligent Christians missing for no reason
    • The emergence of a charismatic world leader who looks like he can bring peace, and who makes overtures to the State of Israel
    • A seven year Covenant made with Israel by a single person who is invested with great authority

    I would like to include the Abomination of Desolation, but this is predicted to occur 3 years after the Covenant is made with Israel.

    A number of prophecies attest to the whole of the Church age being prophetically ignored. One is the prophecy of Joel 2 where the beginning of the Church age at Pentecost is coupled directly with the "terrible day of the Lord". Another is the period between the 69th week of Daniel 9, and the 70th being undefined. Again in Acts 15:14-16 the Church is raised up and then David's House, the kingly house of Israel, is restored. There is nothing in between. And if we examine the Old Testament prophets carefully in the light of Acts 15, we see the trend in prophecy to "jump" a period between Israel's chastisement and its restoration.

    Thus, there seems to be much evidence that the unfulfilled prophecies belong to a period AFTER the Church age.

    As to the seven Churches of Revelation they are first seven literal Churches that existed at John's time of captivity on Patmos. But the Book of Revelation is to contain "signs" (Rev.1:1). And it is clear from much of Revelation that this "sign" procedure is used. If this is applied to the seven Churches then they could be signs of both a moral AND and an historical fulfillment. But I think all will agree that there is no way to define or apportion the historical dates to the seven Churches. Laodicea seems to be valid today, but then again it was already valid at John's time. Then again, the last four of the seven allude to the Lord's "coming". That really throws a spanner in the works of the historical thesis.

    *I would like to have dealt with the predictions of Matthew Chapter 13 as I believe these parables to apply to the whole Church age. But they are not primarily events. Again, like most prophecies dealing with the Church age, they show a moral aspect - not an historical.

  6. #6

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Insofar as the question goes, "When is/was prophecy fulfilled" views range from extreme Preterist to extreme Futurist. A rough list looks like this:
    Full Preterist >> Partial Preterist >> Historicist >> Futurist

    The Historicist view used to be quite well known about 150 years ago but it lost ground to modern futurist theories. Unfortunately, a number of oddball sects still follow historicism, but I do not think we should reject it out of hand because of that. The basic idea is that the books of Daniel and Revelation have been gradually unfolding throughout the last 2000 years. (The Church Age)

    Historicists say that the development of church history is observed in definite stages from it's apostolic beginnings to the present modern age. These divisions were prophesied by St. John in the book of Revelation whose seven golden lamp stands represented seven actual churches, which in turn typified seven church ages which were to come. In these last days we may look back in retrospect and the seven churches of do have a resemblance to various sub-ages within Church history.

    Anyway, here is a diagram that outlines the concept. (There are variations to this)

    I look on this a bit like Pretrib, it is a man-made teaching of something that Scripture does not teach. There is no such thing (or mention) of 7 church ages. Every Historist and Pretrib graph is different, according to the belief and imagination of the individual. One can literally make Rev say whatever you want - and men do. Sorry. I cannot buy this.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    3,727

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    I look on this a bit like Pretrib, it is am man-made teaching of something that Scripture does not teach. There is no such thing (or mention) of 7 church ages. Every Historist and Pretrib graph is different, according to the belief and imagination of the individual. One can literally make Rev say whatever you want - and men do. Sorry. I cannot buy this.
    I just wanted to take the opportunity to jump into a thread with wpm where I agree with him wholeheartedly

    It's pretty fun!
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

  8. #8

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by the rookie View Post
    I just wanted to take the opportunity to jump into a thread with wpm where I agree with him wholeheartedly

    It's pretty fun!
    PTL. Revival is coming. Rookie and WPM on the same page! LOL.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    1,334
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by the rookie View Post
    I just wanted to take the opportunity to jump into a thread with wpm where I agree with him wholeheartedly

    It's pretty fun!
    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    PTL. Revival is coming. Rookie and WPM on the same page! LOL.
    This is more epic than when the power rangers unite... Count me in as we battle together this imperial and tyrannical onslaught of eschatological historicism within the realm of bible chat land.

  10. #10

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    This is more epic than when the power rangers unite... Count me in as we battle together this imperial and tyrannical onslaught of eschatological historicism within the realm of bible chat land.
    Yes bro! I agree. LOL. A little bit more tweaking and compromising and you guys will be Amils. LOL.

    How is baby and mummy?
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    1,334
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    Yes bro! I agree. LOL. A little bit more tweaking and compromising and you guys will be Amils. LOL.

    How is baby and mummy?

    Baby is doing great. He's a big boy (9.4lbs at birth)...! I'm trying to land him a NFL contract soon. I'm working on him doing some pull-ups in the crib.
    My wife is doing surprisingly well... Thanks for asking

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    2,733
    Blog Entries
    5

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Im inclined to agree that 'old-style' historicism as depicted on the O.P. chart is somewhat speculative. However, the general idea of historicism is better than Futurism which dangles all prophecy in front of our noses, and Preterism which assigns it all to the past.

    For example, the fulfillment of what we call 'the times of the gentiles' has been gradually fulfilling over the Church Age. Another would be, Daniels prophecy of '10 kingdoms' which would follow the Roman Empire, but precede the final 'horn' that makes war with the saints. These have had gradual historical fulfillments IMHO.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Strawberry Plains, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    13,636
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Baby is doing great. He's a big boy (9.4lbs at birth)...! I'm trying to land him a NFL contract soon. I'm working on him doing some pull-ups in the crib.
    My wife is doing surprisingly well... Thanks for asking
    Well, well...CONGRATULATIONS on the new son! I'm glad to hear that both baby and mom are doing good, too! That was a good sized little boy. I'm sure she's happy he is finally here.
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Strawberry Plains, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    13,636
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Count me in with the rookie, wpm and the beginner......

    When I saw the dates on the chart, the first thing I thought about was, "Oh no...there's that 1844 date! Again." (Prominent date thought up by a very controversial person!)
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  15. #15

    Re: A Historicist View of the Church Age

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Baby is doing great. He's a big boy (9.4lbs at birth)...! I'm trying to land him a NFL contract soon. I'm working on him doing some pull-ups in the crib.
    My wife is doing surprisingly well... Thanks for asking
    PTL. God is good! You should push him more towards real football - soccer. LOL!
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Is it God, or is it our view of Him?
    By Oregongrown in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: Oct 2nd 2013, 12:21 AM
  2. Print View for PMs
    By Slug1 in forum Tech Questions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Sep 12th 2009, 05:39 AM
  3. Where is John's first view?
    By vinsight4u8 in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Sep 6th 2008, 09:37 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •