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Thread: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

  1. #1
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    O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    I am trying to put this scripture in context. We know that during the millennium, our Messiah will rule on earth for a 1000 years. This period will restore the utopia that man lost in the garden of Eden. Scriptures say that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26. Somehow I don't see death compatible with a utopia millennial kingdom where:

    Rev 21: 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be no death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    During the 1000 years, Satan will be safely locked away Rev 12:9 and released again at the expiration Rev 20:7 And when the 1000 years are expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    a) With Satan back in business and waging war, clearly death will reign again against man.

    b) How do we reconcile a death-free millennium and another period with death wreaking havoc amongst men?
    c) If death is restored after the millennium, will that not fly against scripture?

    I suspect I'm probably getting these period in history mixed up sequentially, would someone care to put me right please?
    Last edited by Trivalee; Jun 8th 2015 at 10:48 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am trying to put this scripture in context. We know that during the millennium, our Messiah will rule on earth for a 1000 years. This period will restore the utopia that man lost in the garden of Eden. Scriptures say that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26. Somehow I don't see death compatible with a utopia millennial kingdom where:

    Rev 21: 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be no death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    During the 1000 years, Satan will be safely locked away Rev 12:9 and released again at the expiration Rev 20:7 And when the 1000 years are expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    a) With Satan back to business and waging war, clearly death will reign again against man.

    b) How do we reconcile a death-free millennium and another period with death wreaking havoc amongst men?
    c) If death is restored after the millennium, will that not fly against scripture?

    I suspect I'm probably getting these period in history mixed up sequentially, would someone care to put me right please?
    There could be no utopia, Edenic conditions or perfection if sin, Satan, decay and rebellion are still prevalent on the new earth. Nowhere in Revelation 20 does it say it will be perfect, sinless, or free-of-decay. The millennium mirrors our age. That is why I say we are in it. The earth Christ will usher in when He comes is clearly perfect and Edenic. That is why I relate that to the end of Revelation 20 now and the intro of the new heavens and new earth.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am trying to put this scripture in context. We know that during the millennium, our Messiah will rule on earth for a 1000 years. This period will restore the utopia that man lost in the garden of Eden. Scriptures say that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26. Somehow I don't see death compatible with a utopia millennial kingdom where:

    Rev 21: 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be no death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    During the 1000 years, Satan will be safely locked away Rev 12:9 and released again at the expiration Rev 20:7 And when the 1000 years are expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    a) With Satan back to business and waging war, clearly death will reign again against man.

    b) How do we reconcile a death-free millennium and another period with death wreaking havoc amongst men?
    c) If death is restored after the millennium, will that not fly against scripture?

    I suspect I'm probably getting these period in history mixed up sequentially, would someone care to put me right please?
    As per my thread on New Heavens and New Earth, there are two main ways of looking at things:
    1) When Jesus returns EVERYTHING is destroyed and the New Heaven and New Earth comes into being and death has been destroyed. This is a postmil viewpoint in particular, It means that death reigns throughout the Millennium.
    2) When Jesus returns the Millennium starts and Jesus reigns, but basically this world is changed, so that sinners are few, death is like it was before the flood. This is a premil viewpoint. It means thta death reigns throughout the Millennium, but it is rare.
    3) My viewpoint which is similar to the premil stance, but that the New Heavens and New Earth starts when He returns. What is important in this viewpoint is that things are gradual. The best picture of this is seen in Dan 7 where the Rock strikes the Kingdoms of Man, and they are destroyed, but it takes time for the Rock to fill the whole earth. This is a progressive expansion of the Kingdom, which has in it the rebellion led by Satan, and when that is put down, then death is finally gone and we then enter a new period.

    What I think is important is to note what is actually stated in Rev 21 and Isaiah 65 & 66. Rev 21 speaks of IN Jerusalem. No one dies in Jerusalem. Why not? Because everyone who lives there is immortal - for they were changed when Jesus returned (as per 1 Cor 15.)

    So to summarise, your quote is speaking of the New Heaven and New Earth and not specifically the Millennium - though my understanding is that it DOES speak of the millennium, but it isn't a statement in regards to the whole world.
    So hopefully you can understand which of the three ideas make sense to you.

  4. #4

    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As per my thread on New Heavens and New Earth, there are two main ways of looking at things:
    1) When Jesus returns EVERYTHING is destroyed and the New Heaven and New Earth comes into being and death has been destroyed. This is a postmil viewpoint in particular, It means that death reigns throughout the Millennium.
    2) When Jesus returns the Millennium starts and Jesus reigns, but basically this world is changed, so that sinners are few, death is like it was before the flood. This is a premil viewpoint. It means thta death reigns throughout the Millennium, but it is rare.
    3) My viewpoint which is similar to the premil stance, but that the New Heavens and New Earth starts when He returns. What is important in this viewpoint is that things are gradual. The best picture of this is seen in Dan 7 where the Rock strikes the Kingdoms of Man, and they are destroyed, but it takes time for the Rock to fill the whole earth. This is a progressive expansion of the Kingdom, which has in it the rebellion led by Satan, and when that is put down, then death is finally gone and we then enter a new period.

    What I think is important is to note what is actually stated in Rev 21 and Isaiah 65 & 66. Rev 21 speaks of IN Jerusalem. No one dies in Jerusalem. Why not? Because everyone who lives there is immortal - for they were changed when Jesus returned (as per 1 Cor 15.)

    So to summarise, your quote is speaking of the New Heaven and New Earth and not specifically the Millennium - though my understanding is that it DOES speak of the millennium, but it isn't a statement in regards to the whole world.
    So hopefully you can understand which of the three ideas make sense to you.
    ... but in your view the mortal godless nations come up every year to worship in this perfect Jerusalem?
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    ... but in your view the mortal godless nations come up every year to worship in this perfect Jerusalem?
    So? If that's what the OT tends to indicate, should one instead conclude some of the OT is not really holy writ? IOW ignore certain prophecies in the OT.

    And besides...living there and coming there, not the same thing. Using your same logic, as an example in the here and and now...if one is a sinner and not saved, perhaps they should not be allowed in any churches then. As you can see, simply not reasonable, nor valid in order to keep the church filled with nothing but saints. In the same way then, just because the NJ will be inhabited by immortal saints, that doesn't mean nations outside of NJ can't then come there, no more than it would mean if a person is not saved, they can't come to church then.

  6. #6

    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    So? If that's what the OT tends to indicate, should one instead conclude some of the OT is not really holy writ? IOW ignore certain prophecies in the OT.

    And besides...living there and coming there, not the same thing. Using your same logic, as an example in the here and and now...if one is a sinner and not saved, perhaps they should not be allowed in any churches then. As you can see, simply not reasonable, nor valid in order to keep the church filled with nothing but saints. In the same way then, just because the NJ will be inhabited by immortal saints, that doesn't mean nations outside of NJ can't then come there, no more than it would mean if a person is not saved, they can't come to church then.
    It is the bogus portrayal of Rev 20 as this time of perfection, bliss and sinlessness when it is quite the opposite. There is none of this in the text. It is pure fantasy. What is more, what Zechariah portrays of the DOTL (or a day coming unto the Lord) is actually more war, rape and turmoil. It has to relate to the here-and-now.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  7. #7

    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am trying to put this scripture in context. We know that during the millennium, our Messiah will rule on earth for a 1000 years. This period will restore the utopia that man lost in the garden of Eden. Scriptures say that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:26. Somehow I don't see death compatible with a utopia millennial kingdom where:

    Rev 21: 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be no death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    During the 1000 years, Satan will be safely locked away Rev 12:9 and released again at the expiration Rev 20:7 And when the 1000 years are expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    a) With Satan back to business and waging war, clearly death will reign again against man.

    b) How do we reconcile a death-free millennium and another period with death wreaking havoc amongst men?
    c) If death is restored after the millennium, will that not fly against scripture?

    I suspect I'm probably getting these period in history mixed up sequentially, would someone care to put me right please?
    a) With Satan back to business and waging war, clearly death will reign again against man.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE]
    Yes, in that time all His people (all names listed in the book of life/ people He want to create ) living in the earth have already received their permanent status ( permanently listed in the book of life ) ( Rev3:5) , it means from that time the new born baby is born in flesh/His salvation already over, indicated as :
    Rev11:7 When they finish proclaiming their message, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will fight against them. He will defeat them and kill them,

    Rev14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Happy are those who from now on die in the service of the Lord!" "Yes indeed!" answers the Spirit. "They will enjoy rest from their hard work, because the results of their service go with them.





    b) [SIZE=3][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=3][FONT=book antiqua]How do we reconcile a death-free millennium and another period with death wreaking havoc amongst men?
    death free here = spiritually death free , during this time God keep His people (especially those who are in the purification process/long journey from egypt to canaaan,) not to be touched by the satan ; said as " threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over " or " She was given the two wings of a large eagle in order to fly to her place in the desert, where she will be taken care of for three and a half years, safe from the dragon's attack " or " But the earth helped the woman; it opened its mouth and swallowed the water that had come from the dragon's mouth."
    though as physically they are possible to be assaulted to dead (valid to those who have permanently listed ).
    ( from the beginning till the the end of this millennium ).





    c) If death is restored after the millennium, will that not fly against scripture?
    Clarified above ( i'm sorry if twisted ).

  8. #8
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    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    It is the bogus portrayal of Rev 20 as this time of perfection, bliss and sinlessness when it is quite the opposite. There is none of this in the text. It is pure fantasy. What is more, what Zechariah portrays of the DOTL (or a day coming unto the Lord) is actually more war, rape and turmoil. It has to relate to the here-and-now.
    When does the DotL occur? At the start of the Millennium - so it starts with war, and has Jesus reigning through it and yet we continue to see what Man is like, even without the influence of Satan, that the moment he is released people again choose the deception, rather than the reality.
    You do make bogus portrayals of the Millennium and then try knocking them down. Yet your OWN portrayal of the Millennium is one in which it is just like now - so truly bogus. What after all is the REAL difference between the Millennium and before the Millennium? Your ONLY answer is the Gospel. Big FAIL.

  9. #9

    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    When does the DotL occur? At the start of the Millennium - so it starts with war, and has Jesus reigning through it and yet we continue to see what Man is like, even without the influence of Satan, that the moment he is released people again choose the deception, rather than the reality.
    You do make bogus portrayals of the Millennium and then try knocking them down. Yet your OWN portrayal of the Millennium is one in which it is just like now - so truly bogus. What after all is the REAL difference between the Millennium and before the Millennium? Your ONLY answer is the Gospel. Big FAIL.
    Zechariah does not actually say DOTL in the original. It is a "a day coming unto the Lord." Check it out. The DOTL occurs at the Second Coming. It is the last day that ushers in eternity.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  10. #10

    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    What after all is the REAL difference between the Millennium and before the Millennium? Your ONLY answer is the Gospel. Big FAIL.
    Not so. The millennium was ushered in by Christs resurrection (the first resurrection). It saw the Gospel go out to the Gentiles (as predicted). Before the resurrection the Gospel was restricted to one lone small nation Israel. The Gospel has liberated countless millions of Gentiles over this past 2,000 years as Satan's territory has been invaded with the truth. Village after village, town after town, city after city, nation after nation globally has encountered the light. Those that have eyes to see will see. Anyway, your opinion of Revelation 20 is non-corroborative. Nowhere else in Scripture says what you are forcing on Revelation 20.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    Not so. The millennium was ushered in by Christs resurrection (the first resurrection). It saw the Gospel go out to the Gentiles (as predicted). Before the resurrection the Gospel was restricted to one lone small nation Israel. The Gospel has liberated countless millions of Gentiles over this past 2,000 years as Satan's territory has been invaded with the truth. Village after village, town after town, city after city, nation after nation globally has encountered the light. Those that have eyes to see will see. Anyway, your opinion of Revelation 20 is non-corroborative. Nowhere else in Scripture says what you are forcing on Revelation 20.
    One of these days you need to give Christ full credit for these things, and His followers as well. satan didn't need to be bound in order for the gospel to go out into the entire world. God is far more wiser and more powerful than satan. But Amil gives the impression had not satan not been bound a thousand years, the gospel would have failed to spread throughout the world. I guess because a loosed satan could prevent it from happening. I have news for you though. the thousand year binding of satan is still future, and that he still has failed to prevent that from happening, the spreading of the gospel that is. This clearly shows God is the sovereign one here, and nothing satan can do can prevent God from succeeding. IOW, satan doesn't need to be bound in order for God to succeed.

  12. #12
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    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    It is a historical fact that BEFORE Christ, it was ONLY the Jewish people who knew God! That is a fact, whether you, divaD want to see it or not. Since Christs death and resurrection...all other nations cannot be termed 'pagan' or 'heathen', not ever again. It was ONLY after Christ that the gentile nations could obtain knowledge of him!
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  13. #13

    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    One of these days you need to give Christ full credit for these things, and His followers as well. satan didn't need to be bound in order for the gospel to go out into the entire world. God is far more wiser and more powerful than satan. But Amil gives the impression had not satan not been bound a thousand years, the gospel would have failed to spread throughout the world. I guess because a loosed satan could prevent it from happening. I have news for you though. the thousand year binding of satan is still future, and that he still has failed to prevent that from happening, the spreading of the gospel that is. This clearly shows God is the sovereign one here, and nothing satan can do can prevent God from succeeding. IOW, satan doesn't need to be bound in order for God to succeed.
    This is a spiritual restraint that prevented the devil's territory (the Gentile nations) from being enlightened. Those that have eyes to see will see it.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  14. #14

    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    Zechariah does not actually say DOTL in the original. It is a "a day coming unto the Lord." Check it out. The DOTL occurs at the Second Coming. It is the last day that ushers in eternity.
    It might say, "the day comes of the Lord"... and it says "that day" [not a mere 24-hr day] involves:

    --"the Lord shall be King over all the earth" (verse 9)

    --it involves "summer and winter" (verse 8)

    --it will involve keeping "the feast of Tabernacles yearly" (verses 16, 18-21)


    It's a loooong "day" that lasts for a thousand years (once He returns to the earth).

  15. #15

    Re: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    It might say, "the day comes of the Lord"... and it says "that day" [not a mere 24-hr day] involves:

    --"the Lord shall be King over all the earth" (verse 9)

    --it involves "summer and winter" (verse 8)

    --it will involve keeping "the feast of Tabernacles yearly" (verses 16, 18-21)


    It's a loooong "day" that lasts for a thousand years (once He returns to the earth).
    We are there now. Christ is king over all the earth. Can i remind you He reigns over His enemies now as sovereign king? Philippians 2:9-11 says, wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

    He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

    Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Col 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

    He rules intimately over the kingdom of those that are as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world as God.

    1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

    Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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