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Thread: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

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    Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Bear in mind My position is firmly pre tribulation raptured / resurrection.(you have been warned!)


    Question one when will saved Israel be translated and received their immortal bodies please show scriptural references to support your statement thanks?

    Question two can you explain who are those great tribulation saints who john saw in heaven who were not under the alter?

    question three difficult question which I don't have a 100% view on at present Will gentiles still be able to receive salvation during the great tribulation?





    Romans 11Kjv

    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
    3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
    8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
    11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
    12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
    14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by vic66 View Post
    Bear in mind My position is firmly pre tribulation raptured / resurrection.(you have been warned!)

    Question one when will saved Israel be translated and received their immortal bodies please show scriptural references to support your statement thanks?

    Question two can you explain who are those great tribulation saints who john saw in heaven who were not under the alter?

    question three difficult question which I don't have a 100% view on at present Will gentiles still be able to receive salvation during the great tribulation?
    1) Who says Israel is "translated"? If by this you mean raptured, then those who are IN Him will be raptured at the same time as everyone else who is IN Him. If not then they won't be.
    2) Those under the altar were BEFORE the Great Tribulation. Those he saw later, were proclaiming the King and so it speaks of AFTER the Great Tribulation (and would include those under the altar).
    3) Of course, absolutely no reason why someone cannot receive salvation DURING the Great Tribulation. A more difficult question to answer is whether anyone can be "saved" DURING the Millennium.

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by vic66 View Post
    Bear in mind My position is firmly pre tribulation raptured / resurrection.(you have been warned!)


    Question one when will saved Israel be translated and received their immortal bodies please show scriptural references to support your statement thanks?

    Question two can you explain who are those great tribulation saints who john saw in heaven who were not under the alter?

    question three difficult question which I don't have a 100% view on at present Will gentiles still be able to receive salvation during the great tribulation?

    ..................
    (1)
    Israelites who are DEAD will be resurrected in their resurrection body when their King and owner comes. In Daniel 12:2 we have the resurrection of the dead Israelites. According to the grammar (verse 2 starts with "and" - a conjunction) the resurrection is connected to the end of the Great Tribulation. 1st Corinthians 15:23 confirms this. "those who are Christ's" are raised at His coming. Israel belongs to Messiah. He is their Maker, Redeemer and lawful King. But there are NO scriptures to say that a LIVING Jew at the time of our Lord's coming will receive resurrection bodies. In fact, the opposite is the case. We know from Luke 20:35 that men in resurrection will not produce children. But the prophets predict Jewish offspring during the Millennial Kingdom (Isa.11:8, 54:13; Ezek.37:25 etc.). Who then are the LIVING who remain in their original bodies?

    I judge them to be the Jewish Remnant who are "sealed" before the Great Tribulation starts. According to Deuteronomy 30:1-5 the reason that God will restore Israel is that a Remnant will turn back to the Law of Moses. They would turn back to what Moses was saying "that day", and "that day" Moses was expounding the Law. God has always kept Himself a faithful Remnant (Rom.11:1-5) and at the end of this age the Remnant are those who refuse the Beast and his Idol Image based on the Law which forbids, (1) worshiping anyone but Yahweh, (2) worshiping any images whatsoever, and (3) putting unlawful things in the Holy of Holies. These will be in dreadful danger during the Great Tribulation, so they are sealed that they are "not hurt" (Rev.7:3). These are those of Revelation 12 who "have the COMMANDMENTS of God" and are different to those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ". These survive the Great Tribulation and enter the Millennial Kingdom in their original bodies which are then able to produce offspring.

    (2)
    You have stated that you believe in a pre-Tribulation rapture. I too believe in a pre-Tribulation rapture, but ONLY for the Overcomers. I base my belief on multiple scriptures. They are;
    1. The rapture is a harvest (Matt.13:39). At a harvest, both in nature and scripture (see Leviticus 23), a harvest contains (1) firstfruits, (2) a general harvest, and (3) gleanings. I judge that some Christians will be "ripe" before the others and that ONLY these are "harvested" before the Great Tribulation. The remainder of Christians must pass through part, or all, of the Great Tribulation, to face the late ripening "heat".
    2. The pre-Tribulation rapture is a PRIZE. Paul says in Philippians 3:14 that there is an "UP-CALLING" (literal Greek) that is a PRIZE that must be "PRESSED" for. That is, to miss the Great Tribulation, a Christian must WORK HARD for it.
    3. Luke 21:36 says, in context of the Great Tribulation, that the rapture is an escape ONLY IF ONE IS COUNTED WORTHY". That means that most are NOT counted worthy. And those who are worthy "STAND" before the Son of man. Since the Son of man is in heaven seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high at this time, it can only mean one thing. Those counted worthy are raptured on high before the onset of the Great Tribulation. But the operative word is "worthy" - some thing the saint must ACHIEVE by achieving the works of verse 34.
    4. Revelation 3:10 says that ONLY those who Overcame, ONLY those who "kept the word of His patience" will be kept from the "hour" of universal Tribulation. Since there are only two UNIVERSAL Tribulations, once at Noah's time and once at the return of Christ, this verse must talk of the Great Tribulation. And that those Christians (for it is addressed to a Church) who do NOT overcome ALSO will NOT be "kept from the hour" is evident. This verse also does NOT say that the Overcomers will be kept IN the Trial, but (1) kept FROM the trial, and (2) will not be present during the TIME (the "hour") that the trial takes place.

    Thus, I judge that the Christians of Revelation 14:1-5 are the Overcomers who have been raptured BEFORE the Great Tribulation. Notice that they;
    • are in heaven. It is the same place where the 4 Beasts and 24 Elders are - heaven (Revelation Chapter 4)
    • are in heaven. The Throne is there (Revelation Chapter 4)
    • are in heaven. They were "redeemed from the EARTH"
    • are 144,000, a multiple of 12. 12 is the number of God's people (12 Tribes of Israel and 12 Apostles)
    • have the name of the "Father" in their foreheads. In the New Testament you can only have God as your Father by rebirth (Jn.1:12)
    • firstfruits. See point 1 above. They have been harvested.
    • sing - a sign of joy
    • are "without guile" and "without fault" before the THRONE of God
    • are in heaven as "firstfruits" BEFORE the rest of the "harvest of the earth" (Rev.14:15-20)


    They are in stark CONTRAST to the Christians of Revelation 7:9-17. Here we see that;
    • they form NO special number of God - just a huge multitude
    • they are "OF" all nations. That is, they are redeemed from MEN - NOT THE EARTH
    • they weep - a sign of distress
    • they were subject to hunger, thirst and the "heat" of the sun
    • they "came out of the Great Tribulation"
    • they are not faultless. Their Garments (a picture of works - Rev.19:8) were filthy and needed to be "washed"

    I judge that these are the slothful, sinful, lukewarm, lazy, and indifferent Christians who must pass through the Great Tribulation to be "ripened"

    As these two portions of scripture deal with the Christians who are alive at the time of the Great Tribulation, they are not connected to the saints who have already "fallen asleep in Christ". Those who are under the altar in 6:9 are the "dead in Christ" who wait in Hades for the resurrection. There are two "altars" in the Tabernacle. One is where blood is shed outside the Holy Place, and is wood covered with Brass. It is firmly attached to the earth and may not even have one step up to it (Ex.20:26). The other is the Altar of Incense which is hard against the Veil of the Holy of Holies. It is made of wood with a Gold covering. In the Tabernacle of God in heaven there is no need for the first Altar, for there is no shedding of blood in heaven. Christ sheds His blood on earth and brings it to heaven (Heb.9:12). The Altar of Revelation 6 is the EARTH where Christ's blood was shed, not the Altar of Incense in heaven.

    (3)
    Salvation is through faith in Christ. As long as our Lord Jesus is hidden from eyes, men will be able to believe and be saved. Hebrews 11:1 says that, "... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." That means that the time of faith is over the second that our Lord Jesus is "seen". At the moment that our Lord Jesus bursts forth from the clouds like lightening, and is "seen" (e.g. Rev.1:7), there is no possibility to "believe and be saved". Up until that moment, salvation is still open to all men. But I personally think that few will be saved during the Great Tribulation. My reason is this; The Overcomers, the diligent Christians, will have been raptured. Only the slothful remain. And they are "overcome" by the Beast (Rev.13:7). Since "faith comes by hearing" (Rom.10:17; Gal.3:2, 5), who will preach the gospel? (Rom.10:14).

    Added to this, Revelation 9:20 says; "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:" And Revelation 16:9-11 tells us;
    "9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."


    Hope this helps.

  4. #4

    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    (3) Salvation is by faith in Christ. As long as our Lord Jesus is hidden from eyes, men will be able to believe and be saved. - Walls

    Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith, by self, cannot save.

    But, through faith, we gain access into the Christ and therein move on to stand in His grace by which comes salvation.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    (3) Salvation is by faith in Christ. As long as our Lord Jesus is hidden from eyes, men will be able to believe and be saved. - Walls

    Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith, by self, cannot save.

    But, through faith, we gain access into the Christ and therein move on to stand in His grace by which comes salvation.
    Thank you for the correction. A man should be completely accurate with God's Words. You will notice that I have edited my second last paragraph to abide by your correction. Fortunately, it does not change the thought.

  6. #6

    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by vic66 View Post
    Question one when will saved Israel be translated and received their immortal bodies please show scriptural references to support your statement thanks?

    Question two can you explain who are those great tribulation saints who john saw in heaven who were not under the alter?

    question three difficult question which I don't have a 100% view on at present Will gentiles still be able to receive salvation during the great tribulation?
    1. If by 'Israel' you mean the Church, it is quite correct that there will be the translation/exaltation all right.

    Elects who believe on the name of the Son, who by His power obtain mercy and covenant of peace, and who patiently hope for His glory.... already have eternal life and will be translated to be like the Son of God when He appears.

    2. All believers in the Christ are appointed to undergo tribulation/afflictions - see John 16:33

    Some in whom the love of Christ is perfected and who believe on the name of the Son, overcome the world (including its appointed tribulation) . They don't undergo the wrath of the Son. That wrath of the Son is also called the Great Tribulation.

    3. Reducing the Great Tribulation by half is also a kind of salvation for saints who go through that stuff. Reducing the GT helps and preserves the saints.

    Even more, where there is the Great Tribulation there also will be the Great and Eternal Salvation by the mercy of God.

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    (1)
    Israelites who are DEAD will be resurrected in their resurrection body when their King and owner comes.
    Any dead non-Christians will be resurrected to damnation. Only the OT saints faithful to God and NT Christians will be resurrected to eternal life.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Any dead non-Christians will be resurrected to damnation. Only the OT saints faithful to God and NT Christians will be resurrected to eternal life.
    Nope, not supported by scripture. Not that I am agreeing with walls either. Any dead non-Christians are raised to judgement, where they either receive eternal life or damnation. That is what the judgement decides (what is being judged).

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Any dead non-Christians are raised to judgement, where they either receive eternal life or damnation.

    That is fully unscriptural. Seriously, you think non Christians can receive eternal life?

    Listen to Christ!

    Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Any dead non-Christians will be resurrected to damnation. Only the OT saints faithful to God and NT Christians will be resurrected to eternal life.
    You divert the thread. I don't think eternal life was ever mentioned. And if it was, eternal life is HAD by faith in Jesus, not resurrection (Jn.3:15). And if a man ENTERS eternal life by works, it is by WORKS and not resurrection (Jn.4:36 etc.). In Luke 18:18-25 ENTERING or INHERITING eternal life is by WORKS and is used interchangeably with ENTERING the Millennial Kingdom. So too Matthew 19:16-24. Again in Matthew 25:31-46 members of the nations ENTER the Kingdom by works in verses 34-36, but ENTER ("go into") Life Everlasting in verse 46. And they are NOT the faithful. They are "the RIGHTEOUS".

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You divert the thread.
    I did not. FHG claims there can be salvation for non Christians. He is wrong.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I did not. FHG claims there can be salvation for non Christians. He is wrong.
    Before we all beat the air and box our shadows, I think that we should investigate all those scriptures that show we HAVE Eternal Life (all which indicate it is by FAITH), and all those scriptures that show we ENTER or INHERIT Eternal Life (all which show it is by WORKS). Your controversy with ForHisglory is because you are addressing the first, and he/she deals with the latter. This thread deals primarily with resurrection and restoration of Israel, so ENTERING, or INHERITING Life is at the forefront. Israel never believed so HAVING Eternal Life is out of the question. But all dead Israelites who ever lived will be resurrected, and those who were circumcised will be returned to their Land. This was God's everlasting Covenant with Abraham.

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Before we all beat the air and box our shadows, I think that we should investigate all those scriptures that show we HAVE Eternal Life (all which indicate it is by FAITH), and all those scriptures that show we ENTER or INHERIT Eternal Life (all which show it is by WORKS).
    Can anyone have salvation outside of Christ? That is key to this.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Can anyone have salvation outside of Christ? That is key to this.
    No. You are correct. But "salvation" of "all Israel" in Romans 11:26 is not the same "salvation" as you and I experience. Both are put into effect by our Lord Jesus but they are different. Just as the "salvation" in child bearing in 1st Timothy 2:15 is different, and the "salvation" by water in 1st Peter 3:20 is again different.

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    Re: Rooms 11 Questions / Revelations questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    No. You are correct. But "salvation" of "all Israel" in Romans 11:26 is not the same "salvation" as you and I experience.
    Yes it is the same salvation. There is only one type. Any Jew that denies Christ shall be damned. All that deny Christ will be damned, period.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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