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Thread: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

  1. #1

    Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    It seems all references to the "great tribulation" refer to the period of persecution by the Antichrist.

    15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. Matt 24.
    21 I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. Rev. 2.
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. Rev 7.
    Yet, it seems some see the 'great tribulation' as the outpouring of God's wrath?

    What is your view?
    “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law."
    Deuteronomy 29:29

  2. #2

    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    I see Jesus as telling us in Matt 24 that it begins with the abomination that causes desolation, from that and reading Daniel 9:24-27 we can see the duration being 3.5 years.

    We see multiple instances of 3.5 year periods of the church being persecuted in...

    Daniel 7:25
    Daniel 12:7
    Rev 12
    Rev 13:5-7

    As such, I see it as a period of the church being persecuted.

    Servant

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    It seems all references to the "great tribulation" refer to the period of persecution by the Antichrist.







    Yet, it seems some see the 'great tribulation' as the outpouring of God's wrath?

    What is your view?
    Logic says that if John sees those that have come out of great tribulation then standing in heaven where God dwells, the great trib couldn't be the wrath of God then. Why would God have wrath on His own people, and then turn right around and allow them access to heaven?

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    It seems all references to the "great tribulation" refer to the period of persecution by the Antichrist.

    15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. Matt 24.


    21 I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. Rev. 2.


    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. Rev 7.


    Yet, it seems some see the 'great tribulation' as the outpouring of God's wrath?

    What is your view?
    Read Deut 28-32. The Mosaic covenant explains this. There are 3 categories being described: the faithful, the apostate, and the enemies of God. the faithful receive blessings, the unfaithful receive wrath/ punishment.

    All 3 receive tribulation. (Hence why the trib is cut short for the elect, the faithful)

    it is the story of proto- Israel/ 12 tribed Israel: 12 tribe Israel has a civil war. the 10 tribes become apostate and choose a king (this is equivalent to the 10 kings that bring the beast to power in Rev 17) (becoming 10 tribe Israel). This leaves the faithful 2 tribe Judah.

    After the apostate 10 tribes choose their "antichrist" (the 11th horn/ little horn in Dan 7), they receive the punishment of God by being ruled over by Assyria (the False prophet). Judah was eventually ruled by Babylon but had religious freedom. After 70 years, Cyrus (Medes and Persians - the destroyers of Babylon) gave the decree to allow the temple to be rebuilt.

    God uses evil nations to dispense justice to people, and to allow the temptation into evil which will lead to their destruction. At the end of which is Dan 9

    And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
    The desolator is desolated.

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    It seems all references to the "great tribulation" refer to the period of persecution by the Antichrist.



    ..............



    Yet, it seems some see the 'great tribulation' as the outpouring of God's wrath?

    What is your view?
    The Great Tribulation is repeatedly declared to be God's wrath. It is promised in Romans 1:18, 2:5 and 9:22. Then, the following passages declare the events of the Great Tribulation to be God's wrath. Revelation 6:16, 17, 11:18, 14:10, 19, 15:1, 7, 16:1, 19 and 19:15. Satan's wrath and Babylon's wrath are ancillary trials to the people of the earth caused by themselves (their sin, sins and alignment with Satan). If men had resisted Satan he would have had to flee (Jas.4:7), not come at them with his wrath (Rev.12:2). And men "fornicated" with Babylon. Thus they can be partakers of her wrath (Rev.18:3).

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Great Tribulation is repeatedly declared to be God's wrath. It is promised in Romans 1:18, 2:5 and 9:22. Then, the following passages declare the events of the Great Tribulation to be God's wrath. Revelation 6:16, 17, 11:18, 14:10, 19, 15:1, 7, 16:1, 19 and 19:15. Satan's wrath and Babylon's wrath are ancillary trials to the people of the earth caused by themselves (their sin, sins and alignment with Satan). If men had resisted Satan he would have had to flee (Jas.4:7), not come at them with his wrath (Rev.12:2). And men "fornicated" with Babylon. Thus they can be partakers of her wrath (Rev.18:3).
    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
    This doesn't say anything about teh Great Tribulation being the same thing. This does connect into the vials and the trumpets to a degree though which is where I think the connection is being made.

    Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgement will be revealed.
    This isn't anything to do with the Great Tribulation, but is speaking of the GWToJ AFTER the Millennium.

    Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
    Now this may also connect with the vials and trumpets and so be seen to happen during the Great Tribulation.

    Satan's wrath isn't ancillary trials though as it is shown to last 1260 days. That is almost 3.5 years - which is basically half of the final week.
    What Babylon does is seen as the tribulations throughout the ages, so again it isn't ancillary - if we say now is NOT the Great Tribulation, for those who ARE experiencing torture and martyrdom for Him, it IS not ancillary.

    So the Great Tribulation speaks specifically of the wrath of Satan through the beast for 42 months. The wrath of God occurs BEFORE that time and continues through it, being shown specifically against those who receive the Mark of the Beast.

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    The great tribulation is also often referred to as the Day of the Lord.
    While the day of the Lord will encompass the seven year covenant with many (Daniel 9:27), in which the beast is in alliance with the little horn (aka the antichrist), who wears out the saints for 3.5 years (Daniel 7:25); it will also include a period of time following in which the beasts system is taken away to be consumed and destroyed unto the end (Daniel 7:26).
    I believe Daniel 7:26 where the beasts system is to be consumed and destroyed unto the end represents the seven vials of Gods wrath that are poured out upon the worshippers of the beast on earth in Revelation 16.

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi View Post
    The great tribulation is also often referred to as the Day of the Lord.
    While the day of the Lord will encompass the seven year covenant with many (Daniel 9:27), in which the beast is in alliance with the little horn (aka the antichrist), who wears out the saints for 3.5 years (Daniel 7:25); it will also include a period of time following in which the beasts system is taken away to be consumed and destroyed unto the end (Daniel 7:26).
    I believe Daniel 7:26 where the beasts system is to be consumed and destroyed unto the end represents the seven vials of Gods wrath that are poured out upon the worshippers of the beast on earth in Revelation 16.
    The great tribulation is not synonymous with the Day of the Lord or the "7 year trib".

    1) the Day of the Lord is 1 year, with an implied connotation with a Jubilee (see Luke 4:16-21
    Isa 34:8
    For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
    2) the Day of the Lord has 3 meanings: it cuts off the daily sacrifice
    Joel 1
    2
    Hear this, you elders;
    give ear, all inhabitants of the land!
    Has such a thing happened in your days,
    or in the days of your fathers?
    3
    Tell your children of it,
    and let your children tell their children,
    and their children to another generation.

    4
    What the cutting locust left,
    the swarming locust has eaten.
    What the swarming locust left,
    the hopping locust has eaten,
    and what the hopping locust left,
    the destroying locust has eaten.


    [locusts of Trumpet 5]
    5
    Awake, you drunkards, and weep,
    and wail, all you drinkers of wine,
    because of the sweet wine,
    for it is cut off from your mouth.
    6
    For a nation has come up against my land,
    powerful and beyond number;
    its teeth are lions' teeth,
    and it has the fangs of a lioness.
    7
    It has laid waste my vine
    and splintered my fig tree;
    it has stripped off their bark and thrown it down;
    their branches are made white.

    8
    Lament like a virgin[a] wearing sackcloth
    for the bridegroom of her youth.
    9
    The grain offering and the drink offering are cut off
    from the house of the Lord.
    The priests mourn,
    the ministers of the Lord.

    10
    The fields are destroyed,
    the ground mourns,
    because the grain is destroyed,
    the wine dries up,
    the oil languishes.
    ...
    13
    Put on sackcloth and lament, O priests;
    wail, O ministers of the altar.
    Go in, pass the night in sackcloth,
    O ministers of my God!
    Because grain offering and drink offering
    are withheld from the house of your God.

    14
    Consecrate a fast;
    call a solemn assembly.
    Gather the elders
    and all the inhabitants of the land
    to the house of the Lord your God,
    and cry out to the Lord.

    15
    Alas for the day!
    For the day of the Lord is near,
    and as destruction from the Almighty[c] it comes.

    16
    Is not the food cut off
    before our eyes,
    joy and gladness
    from the house of our God?
    So, the day of the Lord has to cut off the 1) spiritual sacrifice/ prayers in an individual human body (via the pharmakia/ drugs/ strong delusion of the whore of Babylon/ spiritual deception/ demonic lies)
    2) physical sacrifices in a temple/ church
    3) evil sacrifices when the Gentiles have control of the outer court in Rev 11

    This seems to correlate to the 3 categories in Deut 28-32/ song of Moses/ Mosaic covenant: faithful/ unfaithful/ enemy

    Compare with Dan 12
    11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”
    The Day of the Lord can't be 7 years in the manner that is normally posited - because it cuts off the sacrifices - sacrifices that are cut off in the middle of the week/ 7 years.

    Dan 9
    27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[g] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    God uses evil nations to dispense justice to people, and to allow the temptation into evil which will lead to their destruction. At the end of which is Dan 9.
    The desolator is desolated.
    What's poured out on the desolator [... the one who causes desolation] is the decreed end ... not desolation; his fate is much worse, and it is eternal.

    Desolation comes over the Messiah's beloved city of the end time. This decree is not eternal, but temporal and temporary.

    Isaiah 54

  10. #10

    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    It can't be one without the other.

    It is the time in which great tribulation falls upon the saints.

    It is the time in which great tribulation falls upon the worshippers of the beast.

    It is the time in which great tribulation falls upon the earth itself and mankind as a whole.

    It's not pretty at all.

    A good way to try and understand how bad it's going to be is just by looking at the actual physical alteration of the earth we live on during that time.
    Look at the earthquakes... Volcanoes... Destruction of vegetation and waters. The tornadoes and hurricanes that will surely be active based on the information from other weather and earth activities.

    Those alone make for one uneasy time... Now add wars... Food shortages... Diseases...air quality... Persecution of all types.

    Plain and simple, it's the ugliest time the earth and mankind shall ever see

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    It can't be one without the other.

    It is the time in which great tribulation falls upon the saints.

    It is the time in which great tribulation falls upon the worshippers of the beast.

    It is the time in which great tribulation falls upon the earth itself and mankind as a whole.

    It's not pretty at all.

    A good way to try and understand how bad it's going to be is just by looking at the actual physical alteration of the earth we live on during that time.
    Look at the earthquakes... Volcanoes... Destruction of vegetation and waters. The tornadoes and hurricanes that will surely be active based on the information from other weather and earth activities.

    Those alone make for one uneasy time... Now add wars... Food shortages... Diseases...air quality... Persecution of all types.

    Plain and simple, it's the ugliest time the earth and mankind shall ever see
    Basically right. It will be Great Tribulation for EVERYONE.

  12. #12

    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    It seems all references to the "great tribulation" refer to the period of persecution by the Antichrist.

    Yet, it seems some see the 'great tribulation' as the outpouring of God's wrath?

    What is your view?
    All inhabitants of the world, including all believers in Christ who are in the world, are appointed to undergo tribulation. All who are Chosen in the Christ will undergo tribulation.

    Saints/Elects who believe on the name of the Son/Lord and have eternal life, will be spared and/or saved from the Great Tribulation.

    Any thing/event that is of, or happens in the Day of the Lord (not the Day of Christ), is tagged "great". The Day of the Lord succeeds the Day of Christ.


    God's Wrath As Great Tribulation

    After the 6th seal is opened, the "great day of His wrath is come..."

    Rev. 6:16-17 declares:
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    All inhabitants of the world, including all believers in Christ who are in the world, are appointed to undergo tribulation. All who are Chosen in the Christ will undergo tribulation.
    Correct

    Saints/Elects who believe on the name of the Son/Lord and have eternal life, will be spared and/or saved from the Great Tribulation.
    Incorrect. Zero scriptural support for this.

    Any thing/event that is of, or happens in the Day of the Lord (not the Day of Christ), is tagged "great". The Day of the Lord succeeds the Day of Christ.
    TDW says something similar, but I have seen no scripture supporting the contention in regards to a separate Day of Christ.
    I also have seen nothing in scripture which says the Great Tribulation is on the Day of the Lord, nor anything else to support that everything on that Day is great.

    God's Wrath As Great Tribulation
    After the 6th seal is opened, the "great day of His wrath is come..."
    Rev. 6:16-17 declares:
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
    The sad thing is this is NOT the Day of the Lord. This is man's claim that it is the Day of the Lord, but it turns out not to be. You see you say Rev declares, but miss the verse before where it is MAN who declares this. This in contradistinction from all the occasions when Angels or Elders declare things.

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.
    19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
    20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


    The above scriptures in regards to the day of the Lord is when He will pass through the unjust land of Israel leaving only 10% of its inhabitants alive.

    Amos 5:2 The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.
    3 For thus saith the Lord God; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel.


    Has the virgin daughter of Israel fallen to never rise again, leaving only 10% of all its inhabitants alive? Not yet it hasn't.
    This event would therefore represent the first half of the week, at the middle of which the daily sacrifice of Israeli lives shall come to a close and the abomination that maketh desolate then stands where he should not, and initiates the beasts system during the latter half of the week (3.5 times), in which time he wears out the saints (Dan 7:25).

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    Re: Is the Great Tribulation the persecution by Antichrist or the Wrath of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi View Post
    Has the virgin daughter of Israel fallen to never rise again, leaving only 10% of all its inhabitants alive? Not yet it hasn't.
    This event would therefore represent the first half of the week, at the middle of which the daily sacrifice of Israeli lives shall come to a close and the abomination that maketh desolate then stands where he should not, and initiates the beasts system during the latter half of the week (3.5 times), in which time he wears out the saints (Dan 7:25).
    Yes it has 722 BC. Where is Israel now?
    You see in the Bible Israel can represent ALL 12 tribes, or it can represent just the northern 10. Amos was from Judah, but had visions for the Northern 10 tribes. This prophecy is about them.
    It doesn't represent any part of the Great Tribulation.

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