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Thread: To him that overcometh....

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    To him that overcometh....

    Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    28 And I will give him the morning star.

    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


    To him that overcometh....

    1...will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    2...shall not be hurt of the second death.

    3...will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    4...to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.

    5...the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    6...will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    7...will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


    As to 1 above, can't do that until Revelation 21:1 is fulfilled first, since it is in the new Jerusalem where the tree of life will be found, thus making the new Jerusalem meaning the paradise of God, apparently. Not only that, one has to be bodily raised per the 2nd coming before Revelation 21:1 can even be fulfilled.


    That then means in order to remain consistent when interpreting these things, then so must the other things in the above list be meaning one has to be bodily raised per the 2nd coming before any of the above can be true of him that overcometh.

    Let's consider 2 next....shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    If 1 above is meaning after one has already bodily risen, then so must 2 above meaning after one has already bodily risen, thus making the first resurrection bodily, and that being when one can't be hurt of the 2nd death.
    The 2nd death is not even relevant in this age, especially considering one has to die the first death first. But if they never rise bodily after that and change from mortal to immortal, then it can't be said they can't be hurt of the 2nd death, or that the the second death hath no power.

    As to 3 above, has to also be meaning after one has already bodily risen, since there's not a single believer I'm aware of, where they have been given a white stone, not that we should take this literally though, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. The latter part being the main point...a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Anyone that tries to tell you this is already applicable to them, the only thing I can say is, maybe they are affiliated with a cult of some kind if they claim this is already true of them.

    As to the rest above, the same has to be true of these things as well, in regards to when these are fulfilled for the overcomers, meaning not before they bodily rise at the 2nd coming, but after they have bodily risen at that 2nd coming. That is then when they will have power over the nations: And shall rule them with a rod of iron

    That is when Jesus will confess the overcomer's name before His Father, and before His angels.

    Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
    9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

    Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

    1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    Putting two and two together here, to be ashamed of Jesus and His words is the same as not confessing Him before men, apparently. It is only those not ashamed to confess Jesus and His words before men, that Jesus in return won't be ashamed to confess them before the Father and the holy angels, thus Luke 9:26 and 1 John 2:28 showing that's when Revelation 3:5 is referring to, and that the overcomers won't then get blotted out of the book of life, but those that didn't overcome, those that were ashamed of Jesus and His words in front of men, they do get blotted out of the book of life. So much for those that believe eternal security can't be denied any professed believer.

    As to 6 above, that too is obvious it's meaning after one has already bodily risen first, since new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven. is hardly come down as of yet.

    And finally...will I grant to sit with me in my throne has to also be meaning after one has already bodily risen first.

    It looks to me then, all of these things above, in regards to overcomers, all of these things are meaning once one has already bodily risen or of course, forgot to mention, changed at the last trump, also meaning those who are still alive and remain at the time.

    And since all of these things are meaning once one has already bodily risen or of course, changed at the last trump, also meaning those who are still alive and remain at the time. what do these likely prove then? Premil or Amil? 2 and 4 above alone prove Premil rather than Amil IMO. 7 does as well when we factor in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30, and what that means post the 2nd coming.

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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Sledgehammer logic daviD.

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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    28 And I will give him the morning star.

    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


    To him that overcometh....

    1...will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    2...shall not be hurt of the second death.

    3...will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    4...to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.

    5...the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    6...will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    7...will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


    As to 1 above, can't do that until Revelation 21:1 is fulfilled first, since it is in the new Jerusalem where the tree of life will be found, thus making the new Jerusalem meaning the paradise of God, apparently. Not only that, one has to be bodily raised per the 2nd coming before Revelation 21:1 can even be fulfilled.


    That then means in order to remain consistent when interpreting these things, then so must the other things in the above list be meaning one has to be bodily raised per the 2nd coming before any of the above can be true of him that overcometh.

    Let's consider 2 next....shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    If 1 above is meaning after one has already bodily risen, then so must 2 above meaning after one has already bodily risen, thus making the first resurrection bodily, and that being when one can't be hurt of the 2nd death.
    The 2nd death is not even relevant in this age, especially considering one has to die the first death first. But if they never rise bodily after that and change from mortal to immortal, then it can't be said they can't be hurt of the 2nd death, or that the the second death hath no power.

    As to 3 above, has to also be meaning after one has already bodily risen, since there's not a single believer I'm aware of, where they have been given a white stone, not that we should take this literally though, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. The latter part being the main point...a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Anyone that tries to tell you this is already applicable to them, the only thing I can say is, maybe they are affiliated with a cult of some kind if they claim this is already true of them.

    As to the rest above, the same has to be true of these things as well, in regards to when these are fulfilled for the overcomers, meaning not before they bodily rise at the 2nd coming, but after they have bodily risen at that 2nd coming. That is then when they will have power over the nations: And shall rule them with a rod of iron

    That is when Jesus will confess the overcomer's name before His Father, and before His angels.

    Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
    9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

    Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

    1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    Putting two and two together here, to be ashamed of Jesus and His words is the same as not confessing Him before men, apparently. It is only those not ashamed to confess Jesus and His words before men, that Jesus in return won't be ashamed to confess them before the Father and the holy angels, thus Luke 9:26 and 1 John 2:28 showing that's when Revelation 3:5 is referring to, and that the overcomers won't then get blotted out of the book of life, but those that didn't overcome, those that were ashamed of Jesus and His words in front of men, they do get blotted out of the book of life. So much for those that believe eternal security can't be denied any professed believer.

    As to 6 above, that too is obvious it's meaning after one has already bodily risen first, since new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven. is hardly come down as of yet.

    And finally...will I grant to sit with me in my throne has to also be meaning after one has already bodily risen first.

    It looks to me then, all of these things above, in regards to overcomers, all of these things are meaning once one has already bodily risen or of course, forgot to mention, changed at the last trump, also meaning those who are still alive and remain at the time.

    And since all of these things are meaning once one has already bodily risen or of course, changed at the last trump, also meaning those who are still alive and remain at the time. what do these likely prove then? Premil or Amil? 2 and 4 above alone prove Premil rather than Amil IMO. 7 does as well when we factor in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30, and what that means post the 2nd coming.
    First of all, how did you get to conclude that the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem? Rev. 21:1 clearly put that tree in the middle of the street (way, or path, or course) of the the river originating from the throne of Almighty God and of the Lamb. John was shown the New Jerusalem before he was shown a pure river like crystal flowing from the throne of God and from the Lamb.

    Now, there are few ways of looking at the listed scriptures in order to understand what the Lord Jesus Christ says. Let us consider an insight consistent with the heavenly pattern:

    • There are three generations for the manifestation of the Christ (spiritual), the Lord (spiritual/glorious) and God Almighty (glorious).
    • Children of God in Christ make up the seven churches in the generation of the Christ that is in the spiritual world (or first heaven). These children must hear what the Spirit says to all the churches and overcome the world.
    • By overcoming the world, they advance to become sons in the generation of the Lord (second heaven). Those who hear what the Spirit says to the churches overcome the spiritual world in order to obtain/attain all seven things you have listed that are in the generation of the Lord Jesus.
    • All three heavens (of the Christ, Lord, Almighty) constitute the dwelling place of God called Paradise.


    Now, consider that each of the generations (of Christ, of the Lord and of God Almighty) divides into seven corresponding to the number of all things of God: faith, knowledge, grace/mercy, truth, goodness, power and Godhead.

    Those who overcome the world obtain/attain the spiritual Godhead called Christ. By so doing, they'd have obtained/attained all the six levels/names prior to the Christ/Rock. Each level/name in the Christ corresponds to a church, starting from the church at Ephesus through the church at Laodicea.

    These overcomers of the world automatically start out as sons in the generation of the Lord. Sonship (fourth level/name) is according to truth that brings about the judgment of eternal life, in the generation of the Lord. They (sons) would have obtained/attained the first resurrection that is by the power of Christ and will not go through the second death because of the judgment of eternal life received by the truth that is in/of the Lord.

    First resurrection does not necessarily mean that physical/natural death had occurred. Rather, it is for the spiritually dead who are raised by the power Christ, whether physically alive or dead (asleep). Some saints are raised up and living in Christ already: they have obtained/attained the first resurrection and will no longer go through the second death.

    Others who are dead in Christ and yet to obtain/attain neither the first resurrection by the power of Christ (church at Philadelphia) nor Christ the Godhead (church at Laodicea), start from the faith (first level/name) of the Lord through all other levels/names of the Lord. They do not live again but go through great tribulation until judgment of eternal life is given to those whose names are in the Book of life.

    So, the first four of the seven promises to overcomers correspond to things they will get in the kingdom of the Lord according to truth. The fifth and sixth are added to them until the coming of the Lord at the seventh.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    First of all, how did you get to conclude that the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem? Rev. 21:1 clearly put that tree in the middle of the street (way, or path, or course) of the the river originating from the throne of Almighty God and of the Lamb. John was shown the New Jerusalem before he was shown a pure river like crystal flowing from the throne of God and from the Lamb.
    For starters, where was the tree of life in Genesis 2 and 3? Was it not in the midst of the garden? Even though I don't think the Bible came out and plainly said Eden was paradise, many when they think of the garden of Eden, they think of paradise.

    Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    In order to have right to the tree of life, one has to be able to enter in through the gates into the city, since that's where Rev 21 and 22 places it. At the beginning of Rev 22 the focus is still on the city new Jerusalem, and hasn't shifted focus to somewhere else. The street of it is meaning in new Jerusalem, therefore on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, thus placing the tree of life in the NJ, thus making the NJ meaning the paradise of God as well.

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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  6. #6

    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    For starters, where was the tree of life in Genesis 2 and 3? Was it not in the midst of the garden? Even though I don't think the Bible came out and plainly said Eden was paradise, many when they think of the garden of Eden, they think of paradise.
    Remember that Adam was/is a living soul. His (Adam's) physical/natural equivalent of God's spiritual/glorious Paradise was the Garden of Eden. God abides in the spiritual/glorious Paradise. But, Adam was put in a lesser/natural Garden of Eden.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    In order to have right to the tree of life, one has to be able to enter in through the gates into the city, since that's where Rev 21 and 22 places it. At the beginning of Rev 22 the focus is still on the city new Jerusalem, and hasn't shifted focus to somewhere else. The street of it is meaning in new Jerusalem, therefore on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, thus placing the tree of life in the NJ, thus making the NJ meaning the paradise of God as well.
    Read Rev. 22:14 again. The commandments (no longer the Mosaic law but the truth) are given to be obeyed by those who have a right to life. And (in addition or subsequent to), such one who has the right to life may enter through the gates of the city.

    Looking God-ward from man's perspective, having the right to the tree of life comes before entering the city. That right to life is as a result of the justification of life ministered by the Lord to sons of God. That ministry takes place in the kingdom of the Lord accordingto truth.

    Deut. 20:19 declares: When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:

    A kingdom, city and house is made by the living for the living. Even so does God make a kingdom, city and house in the already living man for the already living man to whom had been ministered the right to the tree of life .

    Moving towards God, that puts the tree of life in the kingdom, then in the city called New Jerusalem, and then in the House of God before getting to God on His throne.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    If 1 above is meaning after one has already bodily risen, then so must 2 above meaning after one has already bodily risen, thus making the first resurrection bodily, and that being when one can't be hurt of the 2nd death.
    But the promise is that if someone overcomes then they will not be hurt by the second death. How is this different from saying that the second death "has no power over them?"
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    But the promise is that if someone overcomes then they will not be hurt by the second death. How is this different from saying that the second death "has no power over them?"
    Seems pretty much the same to me. Note though that this is not the same as the first death, which means we die once first. The second death speaks of the Lake of Fire.

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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    But the promise is that if someone overcomes then they will not be hurt by the second death. How is this different from saying that the second death "has no power over them?"
    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    This isn't already the case since the resurrection is yet to occur. It is only when they can no longer die anymore, obviously meaning at the last trump, as per 1 Cor 15. That is why they can't be hurt of the 2nd death and that the 2nd death has no power over them for forever. Only those cast into the LOF can be hurt of the 2nd death, thus the 2nd death having power over them, meaning they obviously can die, rather than can't die anymore. To say otherwise completely contradicts Luke 20:36, since that is hardly promised as well to those that get cast into the LOF.

    The 2nd death is not yet relevant. The 2nd death only becomes relevant once a bodily resurrection has occurred. And since Luke 20:36 says Neither can they die any more, that tells us they never face the GWTJ at anytime. And besides, once the GWTJ takes place, be it soon after Christ returns, or as Premils conclude, either way, the last trump clearly precededs the GWTJ. The GWTJ is only for the dead, not the already alive immortals at the last trump.

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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    This isn't already the case since the resurrection is yet to occur. It is only when they can no longer die anymore, obviously meaning at the last trump, as per 1 Cor 15. That is why they can't be hurt of the 2nd death and that the 2nd death has no power over them for forever. Only those cast into the LOF can be hurt of the 2nd death, thus the 2nd death having power over them, meaning they obviously can die, rather than can't die anymore. To say otherwise completely contradicts Luke 20:36, since that is hardly promised as well to those that get cast into the LOF.

    The 2nd death is not yet relevant. The 2nd death only becomes relevant once a bodily resurrection has occurred. And since Luke 20:36 says Neither can they die any more, that tells us they never face the GWTJ at anytime. And besides, once the GWTJ takes place, be it soon after Christ returns, or as Premils conclude, either way, the last trump clearly precededs the GWTJ. The GWTJ is only for the dead, not the already alive immortals at the last trump.
    Hmmm.... I'll try to rephrase, why must the first resurrection be physical simply because it says the participants will not be subjected to the second death? Is someone still in danger of being hurt by the second death if they believe and receive the Holy Spirit today? I don't think the promise itself tells us whether the first resurrection is physical or not... or it sounds like the implication you are making is that the LoF event occurs with the first resurrection.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  11. #11

    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Hmmm.... I'll try to rephrase, why must the first resurrection be physical simply because it says the participants will not be subjected to the second death? Is someone still in danger of being hurt by the second death if they believe and receive the Holy Spirit today? I don't think the promise itself tells us whether the first resurrection is physical or not... or it sounds like the implication you are making is that the LoF event occurs with the first resurrection.
    I can't answer for Divad, though as to the first part you mention in what I quoted from you allow me if you may to show at least on area in scripture that divulges enough details all around to show that the first resurrection cannot possibly mean by spiritual methods IE Coming to Christ, becoming a saint.

    In the case of Rev 20 at least, it would have to be physically as the ones mentioned had already been made alive through Christ and is the very reason as to why they are mentioned as beheaded.

    Can you tell me in scripture where it mentions that we become spiritually alive after having been made a joint heir in Christ already?

    The only mention of coming alive after having become a joint heir through Christ in scripture is the reception of the inheritance of eternal life, which as it was with Christ, was an actual form of bodily resurrection in which the body was raised immortal and incorruptible.
    Which also happens to be exactly what we in Christ are promised when He returns.

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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    The only mention of coming alive after having become a joint heir through Christ in scripture is the reception of the inheritance of eternal life, which as it was with Christ, was an actual form of bodily resurrection in which the body was raised immortal and incorruptible.
    Which also happens to be exactly what we in Christ are promised when He returns.
    Amen...

    For the dead in Christ shall rise first
    Then WE which are alive and remain

    In proper grammar would not Paul be part of the "WE"????? Paul whom knew all mysteries really thought he was going to see the second coming???? Of course not!

    WE = Includes Paul and to those he was speaking...... The word "We" folks not to hard to understand.
    ALIVE = resurrected from the grave
    REMAIN = Not living upon the earth but remain as the wicked are cast out into LOF.

    Then WE which are alive and remain (being the dead in Christ resurrected) shall be caught up (resurrected) together with them that sleep.

  13. #13

    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsAllLinked View Post
    I can't answer for Divad, though as to the first part you mention in what I quoted from you allow me if you may to show at least on area in scripture that divulges enough details all around to show that the first resurrection cannot possibly mean by spiritual methods IE Coming to Christ, becoming a saint.

    In the case of Rev 20 at least, it would have to be physically as the ones mentioned had already been made alive through Christ and is the very reason as to why they are mentioned as beheaded.

    Can you tell me in scripture where it mentions that we become spiritually alive after having been made a joint heir in Christ already?

    The only mention of coming alive after having become a joint heir through Christ in scripture is the reception of the inheritance of eternal life, which as it was with Christ, was an actual form of bodily resurrection in which the body was raised immortal and incorruptible.
    Which also happens to be exactly what we in Christ are promised when He returns.
    Lets accept your understanding of the first resurrection as being physical resurrection for those who are called blessed and holy and have no fear of the second death. You believe they come back to life again when Christ returns and bodily raises them...yes? And then the thousand years for living and reigning with Christ begins...yes? And after the thousand years are finished the rest of the dead are also bodily raised...yes?

    If I have correctly stated what you believe, I would like to ask follow-up questions.

    1. If the first resurrection is physical, and when the holy and blessed live and reign with Christ, who are they reigning with Christ over? The only ones left are the rest of the dead. If they are dead, what would be the purpose for reigning over them?

    2. Since those of the first resurrection have no fear of the second death, what would be the purpose for the second resurrection for the rest of the dead which follows the thousand years? Since the rest of the dead are not of the first resurrection, they will not be spared from the second death. For the passage is clear that if one is to be spared the second death, they must have part in the first resurrection. There is only one first resurrection, so any resurrection to follow would be a resurrection to stand before the GWTJ to be cast into the second death [LOF].

    3. Since the first resurrection is for those who are blessed and holy, the first bodily resurrection at Christ's coming would be for those who are of the Kingdom of God, or born again of His Spirit. Since the first resurrection indicates that the Kingdom of God is complete, why would there be another thousand years on this earth before the new heaven and the new earth come down from God out of heaven? Especially in light of the fact that the only ones left are the rest of the dead. And since they are the dead, and have no part in the first resurrection destined to the eternal flames, why would God delay their judgment for another thousand literal years after the Kingdom of God is complete?

    You don't have these problems or inconsistencies forced unto the text once you realize the thousand years symbolizes time from the first advent to the second coming. And the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ that we must all partake of to be spared the second death. And when we are in Christ, in death we live and reign with Him in heaven until time [thousand yrs] has ended. Then the rest of the dead, or all who in life/time have no part of the resurrection of Christ are raised for the GWTJ. And then those of the first resurrection live and reign with Christ through eternity on the new heaven and new earth as it descends from heaven.

    If your going to be literal in interpreting the Revelation, especially chapter 20 then you must be consistent and interpret the whole literally. Although I can't imagine how one might literally interpret a spiritual being with literal chains in a literal bottomless pit???

    Many Blessings,
    RW

  14. #14

    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    28 And I will give him the morning star.

    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


    To him that overcometh....

    1...will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    2...shall not be hurt of the second death.

    3...will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    4...to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.

    5...the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    6...will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    7...will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


    As to 1 above, can't do that until Revelation 21:1 is fulfilled first, since it is in the new Jerusalem where the tree of life will be found, thus making the new Jerusalem meaning the paradise of God, apparently. Not only that, one has to be bodily raised per the 2nd coming before Revelation 21:1 can even be fulfilled.


    That then means in order to remain consistent when interpreting these things, then so must the other things in the above list be meaning one has to be bodily raised per the 2nd coming before any of the above can be true of him that overcometh.

    Let's consider 2 next....shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    If 1 above is meaning after one has already bodily risen, then so must 2 above meaning after one has already bodily risen, thus making the first resurrection bodily, and that being when one can't be hurt of the 2nd death.
    The 2nd death is not even relevant in this age, especially considering one has to die the first death first. But if they never rise bodily after that and change from mortal to immortal, then it can't be said they can't be hurt of the 2nd death, or that the the second death hath no power.

    As to 3 above, has to also be meaning after one has already bodily risen, since there's not a single believer I'm aware of, where they have been given a white stone, not that we should take this literally though, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. The latter part being the main point...a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Anyone that tries to tell you this is already applicable to them, the only thing I can say is, maybe they are affiliated with a cult of some kind if they claim this is already true of them.

    As to the rest above, the same has to be true of these things as well, in regards to when these are fulfilled for the overcomers, meaning not before they bodily rise at the 2nd coming, but after they have bodily risen at that 2nd coming. That is then when they will have power over the nations: And shall rule them with a rod of iron

    That is when Jesus will confess the overcomer's name before His Father, and before His angels.

    Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
    9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

    Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

    1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    Putting two and two together here, to be ashamed of Jesus and His words is the same as not confessing Him before men, apparently. It is only those not ashamed to confess Jesus and His words before men, that Jesus in return won't be ashamed to confess them before the Father and the holy angels, thus Luke 9:26 and 1 John 2:28 showing that's when Revelation 3:5 is referring to, and that the overcomers won't then get blotted out of the book of life, but those that didn't overcome, those that were ashamed of Jesus and His words in front of men, they do get blotted out of the book of life. So much for those that believe eternal security can't be denied any professed believer.

    As to 6 above, that too is obvious it's meaning after one has already bodily risen first, since new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven. is hardly come down as of yet.

    And finally...will I grant to sit with me in my throne has to also be meaning after one has already bodily risen first.

    It looks to me then, all of these things above, in regards to overcomers, all of these things are meaning once one has already bodily risen or of course, forgot to mention, changed at the last trump, also meaning those who are still alive and remain at the time.

    And since all of these things are meaning once one has already bodily risen or of course, changed at the last trump, also meaning those who are still alive and remain at the time. what do these likely prove then? Premil or Amil? 2 and 4 above alone prove Premil rather than Amil IMO. 7 does as well when we factor in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30, and what that means post the 2nd coming.
    Overcomers are all who partake of Christ's resurrection, which is the 'first'. What have they overcome? The penalty of sin (that awaits all who do not overcome by partaking of the resurrection of Christ), and the second death which is the consequence of sin.

    Many Blessings,
    RW

  15. #15
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    Re: To him that overcometh....

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    Lets accept your understanding of the first resurrection as being physical resurrection for those who are called blessed and holy and have no fear of the second death. You believe they come back to life again when Christ returns and bodily raises them...yes? And then the thousand years for living and reigning with Christ begins...yes? And after the thousand years are finished the rest of the dead are also bodily raised...yes?

    If I have correctly stated what you believe, I would like to ask follow-up questions.

    1. If the first resurrection is physical, and when the holy and blessed live and reign with Christ, who are they reigning with Christ over? The only ones left are the rest of the dead. If they are dead, what would be the purpose for reigning over them?
    I can probably try and tackle this one at least, though I realize your questions weren't directed to me. As to your other questions, don't have any satisfactory answers for them ATM. Of course though, I'm certain you won't find this answer satisfactory, let alone any other answers to your other questions here.

    The only ones left would not be just the rest of the dead. Premils have shown you all numerous times via OT passages that some remain alive post the 2nd coming, but are mortals. When all is said and done per the 2nd coming, the dead in Christ and those that are alive and remain, these form one group, the bodily immortal. Some of those still alive at the 2nd coming, but don't become part of the first group, some of them are slain by Christ, meaning the ones in the beast's armies. These then join the wicked who are already dead, who didn't already rise when Christ returned. These join the rest of the dead and they too do not live again until after the thousand years expires. But there are still some remaining who didn't make the first group nor become part of the 2nd group. These are the ones Christ and His saints will rule over during the 1000 years. Zechariah 14:16 for one shows this.

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