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Thread: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

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    Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    There seems to be never ending confusion about the Daniel 70 sevens prophecy. Here is the oldest version known to exist along with the primary definition of each word.

    27 καὶ [and] δυναμώσει [to strengthen] διαθήκην [covenant] πολλοῖς [many], ἑβδομὰς [seven] μία [one]· καὶ [and] ἐν [in] τῷ [the] ἡμίσει [half] τῆς [the] ἑβδομάδος [seven] ἀρθήσεταί [to lift up] μου [My] θυσία [sacrifice] καὶ [and] σπονδή [libation], καὶ [and] ἐπὶ [upon] τὸ [the] ἱερὸν [temple] βδέλυγμα [abomination] τῶν [the] ἐρημώσεων [devastation], καὶ [and] ἕως [even as] συντελείας [completion] καιροῦ [time] συντέλεια [end] δοθήσεται [to give] ἐπὶ [upon] τὴν [the] ἐρήμωσιν [desolation].

    I know mixed languages are hard to deal with, so I will repeat the English again. (I capitalized "My" because this verse is given by Gabriel directly from God, so we know who the "My" is.)

    and to strengthen covenant many seven one and in the half the seven to lift up My sacrifice and libation and upon the temple abomination the devastation and even as completion time end to give upon the desolation.

    Now, the huge difference is the word "to lift up," which is usually translated as "take away." I expect this will be controversial so I will expand upon this word.

    ἀρθήσεταί is a Verb, Future tense, Passive, Indicative, Singular from the root word αἴρω

    Passive means the subject is receiving the action.
    Indicative means the action of the verb is actual.

    There are five definitions, so to speak.

    1. to lift up, take up, pick up
    2. to look up (in prayer)
    3. to lift up and carry along
    4. to lift up and carry away, remove
    5. to take away, remove (no suggestion of lifting up)

    The definition used is critical in this verse. The ramifications are enormous. How can we know for sure which definition was intended by the translator?

    Jesus used this very same Greek word, in another construct, twice in the gospel of John. How did Jesus use this critical word?

    John 3:
    14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up"

    John 12:34 "
    The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

    The underlined words are the English translations of the very same Greek word from the Greek Septuagint version of Daniel 9:27. Do you think Jesus knew this prophecy was about Him? Was Jesus My [God] sacrifice and libation who was lifted up? Everyone can draw their own conclusions.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    There seems to be never ending confusion about the Daniel 70 sevens prophecy. Here is the oldest version known to exist along with the primary definition of each word.

    27 καὶ [and] δυναμώσει [to strengthen] διαθήκην [covenant] πολλοῖς [many], ἑβδομὰς [seven] μία [one]· καὶ [and] ἐν [in] τῷ [the] ἡμίσει [half] τῆς [the] ἑβδομάδος [seven] ἀρθήσεταί [to lift up] μου [My] θυσία [sacrifice] καὶ [and] σπονδή [libation], καὶ [and] ἐπὶ [upon] τὸ [the] ἱερὸν [temple] βδέλυγμα [abomination] τῶν [the] ἐρημώσεων [devastation], καὶ [and] ἕως [even as] συντελείας [completion] καιροῦ [time] συντέλεια [end] δοθήσεται [to give] ἐπὶ [upon] τὴν [the] ἐρήμωσιν [desolation].

    I know mixed languages are hard to deal with, so I will repeat the English again. (I capitalized "My" because this verse is given by Gabriel directly from God, so we know who the "My" is.)

    and to strengthen covenant many seven one and in the half the seven to lift up My sacrifice and libation and upon the temple abomination the devastation and even as completion time end to give upon the desolation.

    Now, the huge difference is the word "to lift up," which is usually translated as "take away." I expect this will be controversial so I will expand upon this word.

    ἀρθήσεταί is a Verb, Future tense, Passive, Indicative, Singular from the root word αἴρω

    Passive means the subject is receiving the action.
    Indicative means the action of the verb is actual.

    There are five definitions, so to speak.

    1. to lift up, take up, pick up
    2. to look up (in prayer)
    3. to lift up and carry along
    4. to lift up and carry away, remove
    5. to take away, remove (no suggestion of lifting up)

    The definition used is critical in this verse. The ramifications are enormous. How can we know for sure which definition was intended by the translator?

    Jesus used this very same Greek word, in another construct, twice in the gospel of John. How did Jesus use this critical word?

    John 3:
    14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up"

    John 12:34 "
    The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

    The underlined words are the English translations of the very same Greek word from the Greek Septuagint version of Daniel 9:27. Do you think Jesus knew this prophecy was about Him? Was Jesus My [God] sacrifice and libation who was lifted up? Everyone can draw their own conclusions.
    What happened on the cross involved absolutely ZERO abominations of any kind. Why can't you all see in verse 27 the middle of the week is connected with abominations? Otherwise, what earthly reason would there be to mention abominations in verse 27 if this verse is meaning the cross?

    KJV...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. This has to connect with something previously mentioned in verse 27. How can it not?

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    There seems to be never ending confusion about the Daniel 70 sevens prophecy. Here is the oldest version known to exist along with the primary definition of each word.

    27 καὶ [and] δυναμώσει [to strengthen] διαθήκην [covenant] πολλοῖς [many], ἑβδομὰς [seven] μία [one]· καὶ [and] ἐν [in] τῷ [the] ἡμίσει [half] τῆς [the] ἑβδομάδος [seven] ἀρθήσεταί [to lift up] μου [My] θυσία [sacrifice] καὶ [and] σπονδή [libation], καὶ [and] ἐπὶ [upon] τὸ [the] ἱερὸν [temple] βδέλυγμα [abomination] τῶν [the] ἐρημώσεων [devastation], καὶ [and] ἕως [even as] συντελείας [completion] καιροῦ [time] συντέλεια [end] δοθήσεται [to give] ἐπὶ [upon] τὴν [the] ἐρήμωσιν [desolation].

    I know mixed languages are hard to deal with, so I will repeat the English again. (I capitalized "My" because this verse is given by Gabriel directly from God, so we know who the "My" is.)

    and to strengthen covenant many seven one and in the half the seven to lift up My sacrifice and libation and upon the temple abomination the devastation and even as completion time end to give upon the desolation.

    Now, the huge difference is the word "to lift up," which is usually translated as "take away." I expect this will be controversial so I will expand upon this word.

    ἀρθήσεταί is a Verb, Future tense, Passive, Indicative, Singular from the root word αἴρω

    Passive means the subject is receiving the action.
    Indicative means the action of the verb is actual.

    There are five definitions, so to speak.

    1. to lift up, take up, pick up
    2. to look up (in prayer)
    3. to lift up and carry along
    4. to lift up and carry away, remove
    5. to take away, remove (no suggestion of lifting up)

    The definition used is critical in this verse. The ramifications are enormous. How can we know for sure which definition was intended by the translator?

    Jesus used this very same Greek word, in another construct, twice in the gospel of John. How did Jesus use this critical word?

    John 3:
    14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up"

    John 12:34 "
    The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

    The underlined words are the English translations of the very same Greek word from the Greek Septuagint version of Daniel 9:27. Do you think Jesus knew this prophecy was about Him? Was Jesus My [God] sacrifice and libation who was lifted up? Everyone can draw their own conclusions.
    It is useful what you highlighted, and I agree with divaD, that His sacrifice does NOT cause temple abominations.
    So we have a covenant which is confirmed, strengthened or made by someone who lifts up an abomination in the temple in the middle of the seven.
    That does NOT speak of Christ, but Antichrist.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    What happened on the cross involved absolutely ZERO abominations of any kind. Why can't you all see in verse 27 the middle of the week is connected with abominations? Otherwise, what earthly reason would there be to mention abominations in verse 27 if this verse is meaning the cross?

    KJV...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. This has to connect with something previously mentioned in verse 27. How can it not?
    The connection you are making isn't in the text. It is only implied by some interpretations. Here is the text again.

    and to strengthen covenant many seven one and in the half the seven to lift up My sacrifice and libation and upon the temple abomination the devastation and even as completion time end to give upon the desolation

    Now, let's add some punctuation, which isn't in any ancient text.

    And to strengthen covenant many seven one and in the half the seven to lift up My sacrifice and libation.
    And upon the temple abomination the devastation.
    And even as completion time end to give upon the desolation.

    To me, it reads as a retribution for rejecting Christ. The two are connected in the heavenly realm, not the physical. Just like the prior verses. I will show you what I am saying in the previous verse.

    26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

    Who is the "He?" Jesus, of course. Notice the difference between this version, which pre-dates Christ, and the KJV. The KJV was taken from the Massoretic texts that only date to 1088 AD. The Jews have muddied a number of verses about Jesus. Anyway, back on point.

    From this verse, who destroyed the city and the sanctuary? Jesus.
    Who appointed the city to desolations? Jesus.

    Why would we assume anything different in the very next verse? Doesn't verse 26 discuss the retribution for killing Christ? Why would verse 27 contain a different theme? The abominations that have been on the Temple Mount for 1900 years are Jesus' doing. We look at muslims, etc. They are not in control, God is. God destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. God has kept the Jews from ruling the city all these years. God has caused the Temple Mount to be desolate since 70 AD. No man could do these things. When we recognize who is in total control, it makes a lot more sense. There are many such examples in the OT where God destroys people using another people. But, God is the one who causes it.

    In verse 27, God's sacrifice is lifted up, and the consequences are stated next.

    Try to see it this way. The consequences of verse 26 were doled out in 70 AD, meaning the prior action had already taken place. The consequences of verse 27 have been in place for 1846 years. Doesn't that mean that the prior action has already taken place? Why would God punish before the act? He doesn't do that.

    According to verse 27, the Temple Mount desolation is to be lifted at the end of time. Thereby, allowing scripture to be fulfilled. We aren't there yet, but close. That is another subject.

    Still unconvinced that Jesus caused the desolation of the Temple Mount?

    Matt 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

    The destruction of Jerusalem in verse 26 is one thing. It's 1846 desolation is another. Jesus has caused this desolation. Fulfilled in verse 27.

    I know this may be hard to accept for now. However, when recognize the temple of Jupiter and the dome of the rock ARE the desolations predicted in Daniel 9, you may also understand what the abomination of desolation is. There is a link between these two pagan temples, and it involves an image.
    Last edited by Tony P; Jun 14th 2016 at 12:39 AM.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is useful what you highlighted, and I agree with divaD, that His sacrifice does NOT cause temple abominations.
    So we have a covenant which is confirmed, strengthened or made by someone who lifts up an abomination in the temple in the middle of the seven.
    That does NOT speak of Christ, but Antichrist.
    Dan 9.27 In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

    I don't think an "abomination" is lifted up. I think sacrifice and offering are "taken away," or put to an end.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Jesus used this very same Greek word, in another construct, twice in the gospel of John. How did Jesus use this critical word?

    John 3:[/FONT]14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up"

    John 12:34 "
    The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

    The underlined words are the English translations of the very same Greek word from the Greek Septuagint version of Daniel 9:27. Do you think Jesus knew this prophecy was about Him? Was Jesus My [God] sacrifice and libation who was lifted up? Everyone can draw their own conclusions.
    [/SIZE]
    Fascinating !!!

    Daniel 9 is mainly about Jesus, the coming of the anointed one:

    So in year 483 we have the coming of the anointed one.
    At the same time, year 483, we have a Messianic promise confirmed, God's promise to send Messiah is confirmed..
    In year 486.5 we have the sacrifice "lifted up"

    Yes some parts of this prophecy are clearly historical (the destruction of Jerusalem)
    Yet some parts of this prophecy occur at the end times, even Jesus refers to the :abomination" of the "prophet Daniel" in Matthew 24 as occurring just before the Second Coming.

    So I suggest that the first half of Daniel 9:27 refers to Jesus, and there are only 3.5 years left of this timeline, this period will start when the antichrist comes to power at the temple, declaring himself God.

    Further confirmation of this, is that no-one has managed to explain why MOST translation separate the identity of the one who confirms the covenant, and the one who sets up the abomination:
    27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (to be lifted up); and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Dan 9.27 In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

    I don't think an "abomination" is lifted up. I think sacrifice and offering are "taken away," or put to an end.
    The sacrifice (Jesus) is lifted up (not ended). The abomination is set up.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Dan 9.27 In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
    I don't think an "abomination" is lifted up. I think sacrifice and offering are "taken away," or put to an end.
    I was responding to the LXX which seems to imply lifted up. By the way the abomination will be set up (which means lifted up or put up.)

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    According to verse 27, the Temple Mount desolation is to be lifted at the end of time. Thereby, allowing scripture to be fulfilled. We aren't there yet, but close. That is another subject.

    Still unconvinced that Jesus caused the desolation of the Temple Mount?

    Matt 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

    The destruction of Jerusalem in verse 26 is one thing. It's 1846 desolation is another. Jesus has caused this desolation. Fulfilled in verse 27.
    I agree with most that you say here, however, I do not agree with the above. You are forcing your own theological beliefs into the sacred text. Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that the temple will be rebuilt. The text you present doesn't say it, and no other does. This Scripture, like others, tells us that the temple will be desolate until Christ comes. Other Scripture shows us that this is the end. So, it will be desolate to the end. There is no more need for it. Your whole argument is based on conjecture. It is an argument from silence. If I am wrong: show me explicit Scripture that states that the abolished temple will be rebuilt?

    Daniel 9:26-27 supports this contention, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

    This reading describes the final removal of the great outward centre-point of the old abolished Judaic system, through the destruction of the Jewish religious temple. This part of the prophecy has no time element. It is not said to be part of the 70 weeks. There is nothing in the wording of this scriptural phrase that requires the destruction of Jerusalem/the temple to occur within the seventy weeks. It was simply the inevitable consequence of the Jews rejection of their Messiah. Moreover, this confirms the fact that the desolation inflicted would continue “until the consummation,” to the time when every last enemy is put down – “unto the end of the war.”

    The physical temple would remain rubble until the ending of wars and the return of Christ at the consummation.

    Did not Christ fulfil every requirement demanded of Him reference atonement and substitution? Was it not God that made Jerusalem desolate for it's overspreading of abominations (Matthew 23)? This event happened exactly 40 years after Calvary (within a generation, as predicted). The “desolation” is therefore not within the 70 weeks; the desolation is the consequence of what happened in the midst of the week – Calvary.

    It was what was going on inside the temple that became an abomination and symbol of rebellion.
    The temple is already destroyed, the sacrifices have already been terminated, the OT priesthood is long redundant.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    I agree with most that you say here, however, I do not agree with the above. You are forcing your own theological beliefs into the sacred text. Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that the temple will be rebuilt. The text you present doesn't say it, and no other does. This Scripture, like others, tells us that the temple will be desolate until Christ comes. Other Scripture shows us that this is the end. So, it will be desolate to the end. There is no more need for it. Your whole argument is based on conjecture. It is an argument from silence. If I am wrong: show me explicit Scripture that states that the abolished temple will be rebuilt?
    2 Thess 2:3 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

    Matt 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place

    Would Jesus call the desecrated temple mount, the Holy Place? Ultimately, another Temple is of no purpose to those of us who know Jesus. Why then does it matter if one is built? Making this an enormous issue with which to reject, is pointless. A Temple only matters to those born of the slave woman.

    Daniel 9:26-27 supports this contention, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

    This reading describes the final removal of the great outward centre-point of the old abolished Judaic system, through the destruction of the Jewish religious temple. This part of the prophecy has no time element. It is not said to be part of the 70 weeks. There is nothing in the wording of this scriptural phrase that requires the destruction of Jerusalem/the temple to occur within the seventy weeks. It was simply the inevitable consequence of the Jews rejection of their Messiah. Moreover, this confirms the fact that the desolation inflicted would continue “until the consummation,” to the time when every last enemy is put down – “unto the end of the war.”

    The physical temple would remain rubble until the ending of wars and the return of Christ at the consummation.
    The KJV translation is more of an interpretation actually, which is unfortunate. The consummation is tied to the end of the desolation, not the end of this earth. There is nothing poured out on the desolate in the original language. This is why so many see the AC in a verse about Christ. "Time" in the original language is an appointed time, not all time. The English word time loses the original meaning in many verses.

    I completely agree with you that the destruction of the Temple did not fall "within" the 70 weeks. It was the consequence of rejecting Christ. It is interesting to note why it took 40 years to occur after Christ was rejected.

    Matt 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
    25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”

    Did not Christ fulfil every requirement demanded of Him reference atonement and substitution? Was it not God that made Jerusalem desolate for it's overspreading of abominations (Matthew 23)? This event happened exactly 40 years after Calvary (within a generation, as predicted). The “desolation” is therefore not within the 70 weeks; the desolation is the consequence of what happened in the midst of the week – Calvary.

    It was what was going on inside the temple that became an abomination and symbol of rebellion.
    The temple is already destroyed, the sacrifices have already been terminated, the OT priesthood is long redundant.
    Yes, Christ fulfilled. Including the confirmation of the covenant in Daniel 9:27. Paul knew this as well.

    Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise."

    That is why God's covenant with Abraham was not conditional or revocable.
    Here is the original covenant that was given to Abraham just after he nearly killed Isaac.

    Genesis 22:16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

    The covenant is again given to Isaac by God.
    Genesis 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

    The covenant is again to Jacob by God.
    Genesis 28:14 "Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

    "Seed" is singular in all three covenants. You may find it interesting that God didn't repeat this covenant with any other generations. You might notice the major significance of this fact. God routinely calls himself the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." He is confirming the three men that He gave "thee covenant" to. Thee covenant of the "seed" in which all the earth will be blessed. Thee covenant which Paul recorded was confirmed in Christ. The phrase, "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" takes on a whole new meaning doesn't it?

    I believe that you probably agree with these passages above. Christ is the Seed, and He confirmed the covenant. Many Christians can accept this. However, we tend to miss the simple fact that the promise, which God swore by Himself, extends to Abraham's descendants AND his Seed. The covenant isn't only for one group or the other it is for both the descendants of Abraham AND Christ.

    Sadly, many Christians try to discount or dismiss this simple fact. There is no reason to do this. We are the ones born of the free woman. The descendants of Abraham are the descendants of the slave woman.

    Galatians 4:21 "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

    “Rejoice, O barren,
    You who do not bear!
    Break forth and shout,
    You who are not in labor!
    For the desolate has many more children
    Than she who has a husband.”

    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free."

    Was is Paul telling us? Christians are born of Jerusalem above, the free woman. Those under the law are not free and will be heirs with the Christians. Christians are heirs to the NJ above. Those under the law are not. Who do you think the nations are that we will rule over? Those of the slave woman. The covenant God made to Abraham still stands for it is irrevocable. However, it doesn't mean they will be heirs with us in the NJ. It only means they will inherit the promised land, live is safety, etc. There is no reason to be jealous of Abraham's descendants and try to dismiss them. We should pity them actually. We have the far better deal in Christ, sons of the free woman from above.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    if I may,

    Another abomination which causes desolation was mentioned, by the little horn of daniel 11. Which was fulfilled by Antiocus Epiphanies..

    So we see this as an example, and historical perspective which should also be seen as a means to interpret daniel 9.

    When you defile or abominate the inner sanctum with an "unclean thing" Which is what the hebrew word means, in the temple. You are in fact "lifting it up" above God.

    When the Greeks did this, Sacrifice was stopped because the temple was made unclean, They could not conduct sacrifice in an unclean sanctuary, it had to be cleansed first.

    The same will be said of the future abomination made by the prince who is to come.. Only that abomination will be left until Christ returns.. Which is why he told the people who are in Jerusalem at that time to run.. because the day of wrath, or the time of Jacob's trouble is at hand (starting)

  12. #12
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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    if I may,

    Another abomination which causes desolation was mentioned, by the little horn of daniel 11. Which was fulfilled by Antiocus Epiphanies..

    So we see this as an example, and historical perspective which should also be seen as a means to interpret daniel 9.

    When you defile or abominate the inner sanctum with an "unclean thing" Which is what the hebrew word means, in the temple. You are in fact "lifting it up" above God.

    When the Greeks did this, Sacrifice was stopped because the temple was made unclean, They could not conduct sacrifice in an unclean sanctuary, it had to be cleansed first.

    The same will be said of the future abomination made by the prince who is to come.. Only that abomination will be left until Christ returns.. Which is why he told the people who are in Jerusalem at that time to run.. because the day of wrath, or the time of Jacob's trouble is at hand (starting)
    Very well said. Good insight there. I enjoy how you don't just take the historical perspective on Daniel 8, but also take his role as a forerunner/example of the future antichrist seriously.

    The same could be said of the events leading up to Daniel 11:35. A large portion of the Jews will be deceived by this future leader and adopt his philosophies, just like a large portion of Jews adopted Greek ways and Greek gods during Antiochus' time.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Very well said. Good insight there. I enjoy how you don't just take the historical perspective on Daniel 8, but also take his role as a forerunner/example of the future antichrist seriously.

    The same could be said of the events leading up to Daniel 11:35. A large portion of the Jews will be deceived by this future leader and adopt his philosophies, just like a large portion of Jews adopted Greek ways and Greek gods during Antiochus' time.
    This makes sense, And would explain why they will so easily adopt to his promise of peace, and feel secure. Which will make the "abomination" so horrific..

    Whats amazing, we had a group go over there a few decades ago, Was talking to a merchant, After discussion (about the temple) we found they do not even read Daniel, or consider it Gods word (Of course, they would have to because messiah did not come when he was supposed to, even though he was crucified immediately after the completion of the 69th week, as prophesied) so unless they know something of the NT writing and Jesus words,, I wonder what will get them to start seeing the "light" and cause them to run when they see this happen..

  14. #14

    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    2 Thess 2:3 "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
    The temple here is the visible church. Please see Paul's repeated usage of the term. There is no rebuilding mentioned here. There is no rebuilding mentioned by Jesus, Paul, John or any other NT writer. The reason is: the temple is destroyed forever. There is no need for it. Christ is the temple.

    Matt 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place

    Would Jesus call the desecrated temple mount, the Holy Place? Ultimately, another Temple is of no purpose to those of us who know Jesus. Why then does it matter if one is built? Making this an enormous issue with which to reject, is pointless. A Temple only matters to those born of the slave woman.
    This occurred in AD70.

    Galatians 4:21 "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

    “Rejoice, O barren,
    You who do not bear!
    Break forth and shout,
    You who are not in labor!
    For the desolate has many more children
    Than she who has a husband.”

    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free."

    Was is Paul telling us? Christians are born of Jerusalem above, the free woman. Those under the law are not free and will be heirs with the Christians. Christians are heirs to the NJ above. Those under the law are not. Who do you think the nations are that we will rule over? Those of the slave woman. The covenant God made to Abraham still stands for it is irrevocable. However, it doesn't mean they will be heirs with us in the NJ. It only means they will inherit the promised land, live is safety, etc. There is no reason to be jealous of Abraham's descendants and try to dismiss them. We should pity them actually. We have the far better deal in Christ, sons of the free woman from above.
    This is talking about the great commission.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    The temple here is the visible church. Please see Paul's repeated usage of the term. There is no rebuilding mentioned here. There is no rebuilding mentioned by Jesus, Paul, John or any other NT writer. The reason is: the temple is destroyed forever. There is no need for it. Christ is the temple.
    1. The temple continued long after Jesus died.
    2. The temple had not been visited by God in ages when Christ was here,, (the high priest never would have made it of the Holy of Holy's if God was present, they would have pulled his dead body out) Jesus called it his house, and a house of worship. It was never intended to take away sin,
    3. Jesus did mention a temple. He said when we see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel Standing in the holy place...There must be a temple for this to occur This did not occur in 70 AD.

    This occurred in AD70.
    The temple was destroyed in 70 AD. not maade unclean,

    you can not make a temple that does not exist unclean by placing an unclean thing in it.

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