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Thread: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

  1. #46

    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    I have studied this topic before but never fully completed my study.

    Honestly - I see that I have a different belief than You do about this - I hope this is acceptable to You. - and I have trully searched and studied this topic in very, very detailed depth - so it is going to partly disagree. But I do agree with You in some part.

    I do not intend to be rude or disenchanted nor intend to be against Your faith - I do believe that Yahoshua is the savior and the same God of the Old Testament manifested in flesh. But please just hear me out and let me explain what i believe to be true. Maybe in time You could show me some things that I believe to not auctualy correct or even totally wrong. Please feel free to let me know where You believe that I am wrong. But this is what I trully believe in my heart. I intend nothing but respect, honor and want nothing but the best for all of You. But this is what I am seeing when I look at the situation.

    Please understand that - In the Greek Septuagint - this same exact Greek word “ κυριος G2962 “ with this same exact precise spelling and same exact precise grammar - in this exact form, is used a total of 3382 times in the entire Septuagint Old Testament.

    And of the 3382 total times - The Roman Catholic Douay Rheims Translators correctly and consistently and always continually - used this same exact word to mean nothing more than just - The Word for “ Lord “ - or to refer to The Lord as He, Him and I - The Lord - God

    But yet I am seeing - they take this same exact word and change it - ( three times ) to say “ Christ “ a total of only three times. Three times they take this same exact word and change it to say “ Christ “
    I could post all 3379 total times that this word is used to say “ Lord “ - in the English Catholic Bible - but ( to save time ) - here are just 11 out of all the total 3379 times - in the Douay Rheims. The
    word is = κῦρος - kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
    Gen 2:8 The { Lord = κυριος = G2962 } - God had planted a paradise
    Gen 2:15 And the { Lord = κυριος G2962 } - took man,
    Gen 2:16 And { He = κυριος = G2962 } - commanded
    Gen 2:18 And the { Lord = κυριος = G2962 } - said:
    Gen 2:22 And the { Lord = κυριος = G2962 } - built the rib
    Gen 3:1 The { Lord = κυριος = G2962 } - had made.
    Gen 3:9 And the { Lord = κυριος = G2962 } - called Adam,
    Jos 24:18 Therefore we will serve the- { Lord = κυριος G2962 },
    Zec 11:6 Saith the { Lord = κυριος G2962 }
    Deu 30:9 And the { Lord = κυριος G2962 } will make thee abound
    Mal 3:16 Fear and hear the { Lord = κυριος G2962 }

    BUT ONLY IN THESE THREE VERSES - that could be considered a Roman Catholic prophetic future foretelling of the Catholic theology of Je - Zeus - they change and alter the word - deleting the “ original Greek word “ Lord “ - and delete “ Lord “ and change it into back into - The Greek word - “ Christ “
    1 . - 1Sa 2:10 κυριος G2962
    1Sa 2:10 The Lord shall ..... exalt the horn of his Christ
    Continuing to say - and he shall give a { future } empire to his king, and shall exalt the horn of his Christ.
    --------
    and 2 . 2Sa 23:1 κυριος G2962
    2Sa 23:1 The Christ of the God of Jacob.
    Speaking in the previous verse - of the Lord, among the Gentiles who is giving great salvation... Christ
    --------
    and 3 . Psa 84:9 κυριος G2962
    Psa_84:9 God our protector: and look on the face of thy Christ.
    Speaking in the previous verse - of the altars, of the Lord of hosts, my king Christ and my God.

    But the word simply and correctly means “ Lord “ in the other 3379 times

    And again - - ALSO - Another similar derivative of this this Greek word “ κυριου G2962 “ with this same exact precise spelling and same exact precise grammar - in this exact form, is used a total of 2144 times in the Septuagint Old Testament.
    Κύριος - kurios - koo'-ree-os - From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

    And of the 2144 total times - The Roman Catholic Douay Rheims Translators correctly and consistently and always continually - used this same exact word to ALSO mean nothing more than the word “ Lord “ - or to refer to The Lord as He, Him and I - The Lord - God
    But they take this same word and change ( two times ) it to say “ Christ “ a total of only two times. Two times they take this same exact word and change it to say “ Christ “
    I could post all 2142 total times that this word is used to say “ Lord “ - but ( to save time ) - i do not need to post any of these -
    BUT IN THESE TWO VERSES - that could be considered a Roman Catholic prophetic future foretelling of the Catholic theology of Je - Zeus - they change and alter the word - deleting the “ original Greek word “ Lord “ - and delete “ Lord “ and change it into - “ Christ “

    Psa 2:2 κυριου G2962
    Psa 2:2 The princes met together, against the Lord, and against his Christ.
    Speaking in the previous verse that - the future Gentiles raged -- The kings of the earth stood - against the Lord, and against his Christ.
    --------
    Lam 4:20 κυριου G2962
    Lam_4:20 The breath of our mouth, Christ the Lord, is taken in our sins...
    Speaking of the - Christ the Lord being taken in our sins: - as we live among the future Gentiles.

    But the word simply and correctly means “ Lord “ in the other 2142 times
    Again In the Greek Septuagint - this same exact Greek word “ χριστου G5547 “ with this same exact precise spelling and same exact precise grammar - in this exact form, is used a total of 11 times in the entire Septuagint Old Testament to says “ consecrated - and anointed “
    And of the 11 total times - The Roman Catholic Douay Rheims Translators correctly and consistently and always continually - used this same exact word to mean nothing more than the word “ consecrated - and anointed “
    But they take this same word and change ( four times ) it to say “ Christ “ a total of only four times. Four times they take this same exact word and change it to say “ Christ “
    Here are the 7 total times that this word is used to say “ consecrated - and anointed “ - in the Catholic Douay Rheims.
    Lev 21:10 consecrated
    1Sa 2:35 anointed
    2Ch 6:42 anointed
    1Sa 12:3 anointed
    1Sa 2:35 anointed.
    2Ch 6:42 anointed
    Lev 21:10 The oil of unction poured on his head
    χριστου G5547 = anointed -anointing
    BUT IN THESE FOUR VERSES - that could be considered a Roman Catholic prophetic future foretelling of the Catholic theology of Je - Zeus - they change and alter the word - deleting the “ original Greek word ““ consecrated - and anointed “ “ - and delete ““ consecrated - and anointed “ “ and change it into - the Greek word “ Christ “
    Dan_9:25 The going forth of the word, to build up Jerusalem again, unto Christ, the prince.
    Dan_9:26 And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people, with their leader, that shall come, shall destroy the city, and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation.
    Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth stood up, and the princes met together, against the Lord, and against his Christ.
    1Sa 2:10 The adversaries of the Lord shall fear him: and upon them shall he thunder in the heavens: The Lord shall judge the ends of the earth, and he shall give empire to his king, and shall exalt the horn of his Christ.

    When The Roman Catholic Translators Translated the Bible into The Douay Rheims they did not use the word “ CHRIST “ 5,528 times - because CHRIST should have never ever have been used in an English Translation.

    Christ - was not an English word - Christ had no meaning and Christ had no usage - in the English Language.
    Christ was not even a LATIN or an ITALIAN word = the word for ANOINTED in Latin is “ unctus “
    The Catholic Translators are taking Greek words and making them into TITLES and NAMES and then selectively electing key verses that they feel should be given the GREEK TITLE of Christ and they are translating these Greek TITLES and NAMES into Latin and then bringing them over into the English Language. They do this same exact thing when they Bring the name “ LUCIFER “ =- meaning Light and they take the TITLE / NAME “Lucifer “ and bring this Name over into the English Translation.
    When the Original Hebrew word Was “ Hallal “ meaning Light. They created a title called LUCIFER and carried this Italian word as a title / The official - NAME of Satan - over into the English Translation.

    The orignal Hebrew word meaning “ anointing “ - was ever a title or a name in the English Translation . - as the word " Messiah "

    " Messiah " never appaers in the New Trinitarian New Testament - In other words the Translators never are concerned to preserve the ORIGINALITY of Hebrew words whatsoever - only the 3 rd century Greek and Italian words are their only concern and of any importance.. And it just shows how the Translators have added their personal doctrines into the Bible – when the Greek word Christ was never a Latin nor an English word. And they do this when they feel it is referring to the key, choice, selective verses that they feel and believe are prophecy of only the versions of the Lord Of a that they tie and mold into a future Catholic theology of the Catholic God.

    מָשְׁחָה - mishchâh moshchâh meesh-khaw' is the Hebrew word for Anointing - it was never Christ in the Old Testament.
    If they are so interested in preserving the originality of the original words - Why not translate the original Hebrew word - “ mishchâh “ = meaning = Anointing ? -meaning = mishchâh / מָשְׁחָה /...... They purposefully carried over these Latin and Greek words - while erasing the original name of “ YAHOSHUA “ and changing His name into JE –ZEUS ..... Only because the Greek language had no way to properly pronounce the name of “ YAHOSHUA “ – therefore it was not important to preserve His Hebrew original name into any other language - but it was so vital and important to carry over the NAME and TITLE of the Greek word Christ to transport it back into the Hebrew Old Testament. This is a total perversion.

    Christ was never an Old Testament Hebrew word until the Greek Septuagint was written in the 3rd century. And they used this word “ as nothing but to say - ANOINTING AND LORD “ ( 5,528 ) total times in the English Translation – But they chose to retain the GREEK NAME / TITLE ONLY in about 9 select, key doctrinal verses and changed it 9 times ..

    It just shows and demonstrates a tiny fraction of the many, many methods and ways in which Trinitarian translators went through the entire Bible making these perversions and doctrinal changes in many, many other subjects, teachings and concerning many, many other subjects that I could easily prove with facts..
    The entire Trinitarian Retranslation is filled with changes, deleted and altered words to center around their personal faith and theology - instead of just translating the Bible exactly as it says from the Original Language. They changed much of the Bible and this is not even a fraction of the other many changes that I could easily demonstrate and prove. These types of changes, alterations and added and erased and twisted verses are found throughout the entire Trinitarian Translation.
    As they waited for nearly 500 years to produce the Bible into Latin and then waited until nearly 2000 years to translate the Bible into any other language on the planet. This completely destroyed the Latin Language and did no service to the Hebrew. How was this preserving important original words from original languages. ? Does it not seem to You - that they instead used languages to force, control, mold, codify, invent and insert their personal doctrines. What do You think ?

  2. #47

    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    And they were correct and they were right - to identify Christ in the Old Testament - but this is not the way the Bible was transmitted in the original language – to take titles and names of the New Testament that were written in another language and make cuts and selected preferences to a few choice personal doctrinal passages where these titles and names should be applied and where they would be left out - removed and deleted and where the original meaning only applied as it was scribed. What other changes and insertions have they added throughout the entirety of the body of the scriptures - based on their personal beliefs and what they see as revelation and prophecy and theological disclosure..

  3. #48
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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    I get your disappointment with the Douay Rheims Bible.
    However it was not the first translation.
    We have the Coptic and Syriac versions.
    We also have the fact that we have thousands of copies of the Byzantine version, which is basically the Greek version.
    In English we have John Wycliffe's translation of 1382 - 1385 into English (old).
    It was really though in the mid 15th century that other language translations started, and this possibly because the Byzantine Empire was gone.

    Languages are a melting pot and you are arguing against two separate things:
    1) Is it ever correct to translate a word in more than one way?
    2) Is it ever correct to use a word from another language in your own.

    In English we have the word "hell" which was an old word meaning hole and thus spoke of a grave, though my understanding is that prior to Christianity the Saxons would cremate their dead (like the vikings). Therefore a word was used which was closest in meaning to grave, though the word grave had no meaning until they were Christianised.
    We call John the Baptist, which is another loan word, as really it should be John the Immerser.

    In Korea they wear T-shirts, and they never had such clothing or a word for it of their own.
    Is it correct to speak of sanctification or glorification, when again these are loan words.

    Personally I agree with you that there should be consistency in translation. The AV (KJV) uses the word Messiah twice in the OT and BOTH are in Daniel 9. Everywhere else they put anointed. This has led to a certain understanding of that passage which if we change it to anointed might not be seen in the same way.

    Now having been involved in Bible Translation, how do you translate "The Lord is my shepherd" for a people who don't know what a sheep is and have never seen one?
    If you are with people who herd goats, do you bring a loan word in, and so highlight that sheep are a different animal to goats?
    What about people who are reindeer herders?

    Now I personally use the ESV, but I refer back to the Interlinear to get to the original to confirm if my understanding is correct. This is what I advise for anyone who wants to get into His Word. You need to start with a good translation and then check as you come to a conclusion, was that use a consistent, clear or correct one.

  4. #49

    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint



    Thank you for reponding to my post. I carfully read what you had to say and what you say makes sence, but my study has taken on a deeper meaning to my understanding.

    Become visible, become transparent and fix the book that is written and bound together.
    I have come to expect the Trinitarian Translations to add, delete and change words around and I also know that the Trinitarian Translations contradict and disagree with one another and disagree with the original manuscripts.
    I honestly do not have a great deal of disappointment with the Douay Rheims Bible, nor any particular Trinitarian Translation.

    There are many Contradiction or Variant Translations between Trinitarian Productions.
    Here are just a few of them.

    { Tyndale and Wycliff } Gen:16:12 - he ( Ishmael ) shall set (his) tabernacles even against all his brethren (and he shall be at odds with all of his kinsmen).

    { KJV } his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
    Another contradiction or variant translation.

    { KJV } Gen 22:2 - 2 God said to him, Take thine one begotten son, whom thou lovest, Isaac; and go into the land of vision.
    { Wycliff } Gen 22:2 - And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah. - { Wycliff } - continues to call Isaac, as - Abrahams “ one begotten son “
    While the original manuscripts and the { KJV } - always calls Issac Abrahams “ Only Begotten Son. “
    Another contradiction or variant translation.

    { KJV } Gen 22:8 Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    { Wycliff } Genesis 22:8 - Abraham said, My son, God shall purvey to him the beast of burnt sacrifice. Therefore they went together.

    Another contradiction or variant translation.

    { Wycliff } Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God made out of nothing the heavens and the earth.
    { KJV } Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Another contradiction or variant translation.

    { Wycliff } Gen 3:10 - And Adam said, I heard thy voice in paradise, and I dreaded, for I was naked, and I hid me.

    { KJV } Gen 3:10 - And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid
    Was is - the Hebrew word Garden - or was it a Paradise ? - H1588 - גַּן - gan - Meaning = A garden : - garden.
    This Hebrew word is - " garden " - used 42 times in the manuscripts - and it never means that other than the meaning of a " garden "

    Another contradiction or variant translation.

    { Wycliff } Gen 3:15 I shall set enmities betwixt thee and the woman, and betwixt thy seed and her seed; she shall break thine head, and thou shalt set ambushes to her heel.
    { KJV } Gen 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    Another contradiction or variant translation.
    { Wycliff } Gen 4:13 - And Cain said to the Lord, My wickedness is more than that I deserve forgiveness for.

    { KJV } Gen 4:13 - And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
    Another contradiction or variant translation.

    { KJV } Gen 4:26 - And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

    { Wycliff } Gen 4:26 - But also a son was born to Seth, which son he called Enos; this began to call inwardly the name of the Lord.

    Another contradiction or variant translation.
    { Wycliff } 1Co 7:13 - And if any woman hath an unfaithful husband , and this consenteth to dwell with her, leave she not the husband.

    { KJV } 1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
    While the original manuscripts and the { KJV } - always uses regards the husband and wife as simply “ believing not / unbelievers - While The { Wycliff } translation says that they is are “ unfaithful.... “ as if the Husband and wife are commanded to remain together - even though they are unfaithful to one another.
    Another contradiction or variant translation.
    { Wycliff } 1Pe 3:22 - that is in the right half of God, and swalloweth death he swallowing death], that we should be made heirs of everlasting life. He went into heaven [He gone into heaven], and angels, and powers, and virtues, be made subject to him.
    { KJV } 1Pe 3:22 - Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
    { Wycliff } Continually through his entire translation, Wycliff says the term “ right hand of God is to be changed into “ the right half of God ” in every single last verse, Wycliff changed where is saya - the right hand of God into - “ the right half of God “ Wycliff - makes this contradicting change about 34 times.
    { Wycliff } Isa 9:6 - For a little child is born to us, and a son is given to us, and princehood is made on his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful, A counsellor, God, Strong, Father of the world to coming.....
    Why would Wycliff add the words “ Father of the world to coming. “ when the original manuscripts simply say nothing but “ The everlasting Father. ?”

    { KJV } Isa 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, “ The everlasting Father. “ ...
    Also, Wycliff continually translated the word “ repentance “ to say - “ DO PENANCE “ - as if it was some sort of act of a man made sacrament.
    Another contradiction or variant translation.

    { Tyndale and Wycliff } - Gen:16 :5 Then said Sara unto Abram: You do me unright, for I have given my maid into thy bosom:

    { KJV } Gen:16:5 - And Sara said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom:

    But in the original Hebrew manuscripts - In Gen:16:5 - The original manuscripts are simply saying...

    ;5 - Sara said unto Abram, VIOLENCE is upon me giving the maid a bosom: - - that’ s it !

    Gen 16:5 Sarai H8297 - said H559 - unto H413 - Abram H87 - violence H2555 - is upon / about H5921 - me H595 - giving H5414 - the maid H8198 - a bosom H2436
    The Trinitarian Translators attempt to insert the idea that Sarah had blamed herself or Abraham for the violence of Hagar and Ishmael - for their act of practicing polygamy ...
    We also find - that is Gen 16:6 - that all of the Trinitarian Translators have purposefully mistranslated this verse.
    Gen 16:6 And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.

    But this Hebrew word has nothing to do with “ DEALING HARDLY “ and this is the only verse in the entire Bible where the Trinitarian Translators attempt to use any variation of this word to say - “ dealt hardly “ - because the variation of this word means to TORMENT, PERSECUTE, TORTURE and to cause physical suffering, anguish and afflict and cause pain and suffering. - to torment and cause pain.
    As we see the correct MEANING of this word - here in these following verses. And it means nothing more than - to testify, answer or respond or give witness or evidence.

    The Original manuscripts say that Abrahm and Sarah were having a conversation concerning Hagar – and when Sarah[/color][color=#1d53ff] answered, spake, testified and witnes against Hagar - that immediately at that the moment what Hagar became aware- at the very next moment - Hagar immediately fled and ran away off into the desert.

    The manuscripts say - in - Gen 16:6 And when Sarai answered, spake, testified - she fled from her face.
    Gen 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found Hahar and said
    From where did you come and where will you go ? ? And Hagar said, “ I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. “
    Hagar never was persecuted nor was never harshly treated or persecuted in the Bible. Hagar stated that she was running from the “ Face “ of Sarah, - not from Sarah’s – torture, harshness, inconsiderations, unkindness, callousness, ruthlessness and violent or insensitive actions. But Trinitarians want people to believe that this was the fact.
    Gen 16:9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and answer thyself under her hands.
    You can go to this website link - right now and see exactly what this word means - “ ותענה “ H6031

    https://bit.ly/2GnfVFE - Just paste the Hebrew word into the translator box “ ותענה “ H6031 - it means to answer in in the meaning or context of a display of testimony or a witness.
    And here are many places where this Hebrew word is used. And it has nothing to do with - TORMENTING, PERSECUTING and causing physical suffering, anguish and afflicting and cause pain and suffering. – Meaning - to torment and cause pain.

    But here is the real meaning of the word and how it is used...
    Deu 19:18 the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
    Jdg 19:28 But none answered.
    Rth 1:21 The LORD hath testified against me, and the Almighty hath afflicted me?
    2Sa 1:16 For thy mouth hath testified against thee.
    1Ki 18:26 There was no voice, nor any that answered.
    1Ki 18:29 There was neither voice, nor any to answer.
    Pro 25:18 A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour.
    Dan 2:5 The king answered.
    Dan 2:15 He answered and said to Arioch.
    Dan 2:20 Daniel answered and said.
    Dan 2:26, Dan 2:47 The king answered and said to Daniel,
    Dan 2:27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king,
    Dan 3:14, Dan 3:19 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them
    Dan 3:24 They answered and said unto the king.
    Mic 6:5 Balaam the son of Beor answered him.
    Isa 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them;
    Isa 59:12 Our sins testify against us:
    But there is another word that is somewhat similar sounding that does mean to Torment, Torture, and attack and hurt someone. And this word is here below.
    וענו - Afflict, Torment, Torture,

    Gen 15:13 { Strangers } will afflict your seed ( Abraham ) four hundred years.
    Exo 1:11 { The Egyptians } set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens.
    Exo 22:22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
    Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth:
    Psa 94:5 They break in pieces thy people, O LORD, and afflicted thine heritage.
    Lam 5:5 Our necks are under persecution: we labour, and have no rest. 11 They afflicted. the women in Zion, and the maids in the cities of Judah.

    These type of deliberate Trinitarian mistranslations and alterations are found throughout the Translations.
    And they do this in any way they possibly can. And in many, many ways. – All regarding personal key, choice doctrinal church teachings, ideas and in social standards PREFERENCES and demands of the current society. To alter the Bible in the contexts and frames of references and substances, in order to replace and insert the faith and ideas of the lawyer and scholars and kingdoms religious ideas that existed as faith and doctrine of the age in Europe..

    The Catholic Church and Trinitarians waited for nearly 2000 years to produce a Bible into any other language other than / outside of - Latin / Italian Language. While yet they were simultaneously developing their church theologies, social norms, and doctrines and many other religious things - all done entirely - without a public Bible available for most of the world to read. And then the Protestants began assisting the Catholic organization in hunting down Bible translators and they began burning people alive, persecuting and torturing and criminalizing them, simply for attempting to translate the Bible into other languages. This went on for nearly 2000 years even beyond the 15 th century. The Protestants in England began horrible persecution of other organizations - such as Puritans and Quakers - “ separatists " who did not want to accept the doctrines of the English Church. Many of them were forced to leave Europe and were persecuted and died for their faith.

    Languages are a melting pot and you are arguing against two separate things:
    1) Is it ever correct to translate a word in more than one way?
    2) Is it ever correct to use a word from another language in your own.

    They were translating the Bible to make sure that the original message - might not be seen in the same way. For a people who don't know what a sheep is and have never seen one – the translators were there to explain what people were to believe sheep are.

    Because, the people in the society of Europe - mostly wanted to be reindeer herders?

    If we need to start with a good translation and then check as we come to a conclusion - there were no consistent, clear or correct translations in many, many verses. The Trinitarians contradicted one another in many, many places./.... This is why they would burn someone alive for inserting the wrong word in a verse.

    It was not about being wrong because it disagreed with the Original Manuscripts. - It was all about being wrong because it disagreed with what the society, organizations and groups of contradicting clubs, associations and scattered beats of society against what the Kings and the majority wanted it to say. The Manuscripts were never important to Trinitarians.
    Trinitarians waited for nearly 2000 years to produce a Bible into any other language other than / outside of - Latin / Italian Language. While beating down anyone who would dare attempt to translate the Bible directly from the Manuscripts.

    We could fill pages, upon pages of more contradictions and many, many mistranslations and many changed, added and deleted words. - Especially regarding the Trinity Doctrine.


  5. #50

    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    I used to also believe that Christ’s sacrifice was the stopping of the sacrifices in the temple in Daniel 9, until I realized in chapter 8:9-14 the little horn was the abomination that stopped the sacrifices.
    Even if you want to say the little horn of chapter 8 was Antiochus Epiphanius (which I’m starting to disagree with), it doesn’t seem right to equate the work of Yahuwhsuwa (Jesus) with the work of the little horn

  6. #51
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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by Proclaiming_Yahuwshuwa View Post
    I used to also believe that Christ’s sacrifice was the stopping of the sacrifices in the temple in Daniel 9, until I realized in chapter 8:9-14 the little horn was the abomination that stopped the sacrifices.
    Even if you want to say the little horn of chapter 8 was Antiochus Epiphanius (which I’m starting to disagree with), it doesn’t seem right to equate the work of Yahuwhsuwa (Jesus) with the work of the little horn
    There is indeed a seemingly intentional equation between Antiochus 4 and other prophecies in the book of Daniel. For example, the term "abomination of desolation" is associated with Antiochus 4, and it is also associated with an unrelated prophecy in Dan 9.27.

    So my conclusion is that the similarity in language between Antiochus 4 and other prophecies in Daniel are meant for us to see the parallels, rather than for us to conflate the diverse prophecies into a single interpretation. Antiochus 4 is *not* the prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" in Dan 9.27!

    The 70 Weeks Prophecy begins with the decree to rebuild the temple--anywhere from 537 to 457 BC, and therefore is fulfilled in the generation of Christ. I obviously would take the later date in 457 BC in order to arrive at the time of Christ!

    The term "abomination of desolation" had to do with Antiochus' sacrilegious act in offering a pig in the temple courtyard as a sacrifice to an idol. Antiochus seems to have been demanding that he be honored as if he was a god.

    It was no different in the generation of Christ, because in 66 BC Cestius Gallus led a Roman Army to Jerusalem, presenting emperor worship among his own troops in the vicinity of the holy city. Ultimately, the Roman Army under Titus destroyed the Jewish temple and Jewish worship.

    Therefore, the "abomination of desolation" fits not just one, but two separate contexts. It is a parallel experience, designed to enable the Jews of Jesus' time to recognize what the Romans would do. They were given to expect the same things from the Romans that Antiochus did. They were to expect an initial presentation of idolatry and emperor worship, followed by a desolation of both the city of Jerusalem and the temple.

  7. #52

    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    The underlined words are the English translations of the very same Greek word from the Greek Septuagint version of Daniel 9:27. Do you think Jesus knew this prophecy was about Him? Was Jesus My [God] sacrifice and libation who was lifted up? Everyone can draw their own conclusions.
    This was not a prophecy about Jesus. The word αἴρω is a common word, used over 100 times in the NT, so it would mean nothing if this word was used about Jesus. And, in fact, your research is wrong anyway, since John 3:14 and John 12:34 use a different Greek word.

    In general, you are better off looking at the Hebrew when interpreting the OT. And the people who translated modern versions like the ESV and NIV know more about Greek and Hebrew than you do.

  8. #53
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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Just out of curiosity, what language transcribes “יֵשׁוּעַ” as “Yahuwshuwa?” Is this a phoetic transliteration? Are you using the “W” because ancient Hebrew may have pronounced the “Vav” as a “W” sound?

    I’m a linguist so I am naturally curious. Modern Hebrew has no “W” sound.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    There seems to be never ending confusion about the Daniel 70 sevens prophecy. Here is the oldest version known to exist along with the primary definition of each word.

    27 καὶ [and] δυναμώσει [to strengthen] διαθήκην [covenant] πολλοῖς [many], ἑβδομὰς [seven] μία [one]· καὶ [and] ἐν [in] τῷ [the] ἡμίσει [half] τῆς [the] ἑβδομάδος [seven] ἀρθήσεταί [to lift up] μου [My] θυσία [sacrifice] καὶ [and] σπονδή [libation], καὶ [and] ἐπὶ [upon] τὸ [the] ἱερὸν [temple] βδέλυγμα [abomination] τῶν [the] ἐρημώσεων [devastation], καὶ [and] ἕως [even as] συντελείας [completion] καιροῦ [time] συντέλεια [end] δοθήσεται [to give] ἐπὶ [upon] τὴν [the] ἐρήμωσιν [desolation].

    I know mixed languages are hard to deal with, so I will repeat the English again. (I capitalized "My" because this verse is given by Gabriel directly from God, so we know who the "My" is.)

    and to strengthen covenant many seven one and in the half the seven to lift up My sacrifice and libation and upon the temple abomination the devastation and even as completion time end to give upon the desolation.

    Now, the huge difference is the word "to lift up," which is usually translated as "take away." I expect this will be controversial so I will expand upon this word.

    ἀρθήσεταί is a Verb, Future tense, Passive, Indicative, Singular from the root word αἴρω

    Passive means the subject is receiving the action.
    Indicative means the action of the verb is actual.

    There are five definitions, so to speak.

    1. to lift up, take up, pick up
    2. to look up (in prayer)
    3. to lift up and carry along
    4. to lift up and carry away, remove
    5. to take away, remove (no suggestion of lifting up)

    The definition used is critical in this verse. The ramifications are enormous. How can we know for sure which definition was intended by the translator?

    Jesus used this very same Greek word, in another construct, twice in the gospel of John. How did Jesus use this critical word?

    John 3:
    14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up"

    John 12:34 "
    The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

    The underlined words are the English translations of the very same Greek word from the Greek Septuagint version of Daniel 9:27. Do you think Jesus knew this prophecy was about Him? Was Jesus My [God] sacrifice and libation who was lifted up? Everyone can draw their own conclusions.
    Fascinating thread. Thank you for sharing this knowledge with us!

    I don't have to say anything because Christ's sacrifice of Himself/God's sacrifice of His Son is what caused the daily sacrifice to become null and void (the veil of the temple was rent).

    However, the daily sacrifice continued after Christ's death until the time of the end in A.D 69-70 or whenever it was that the Roman siege made it impossible to continue it (I've often wondered if this was not itself an abomination to God, since the daily sacrifice represents the people's rejection of God's sacrifice).

    Really informative and fascinating thread. Thank you.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There is indeed a seemingly intentional equation between Antiochus 4 and other prophecies in the book of Daniel. For example, the term "abomination of desolation" is associated with Antiochus 4, and it is also associated with an unrelated prophecy in Dan 9.27.

    So my conclusion is that the similarity in language between Antiochus 4 and other prophecies in Daniel are meant for us to see the parallels, rather than for us to conflate the diverse prophecies into a single interpretation. Antiochus 4 is *not* the prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" in Dan 9.27!
    I concur. To me, the reason why there are parallels in prophecy relating to two or more diverse occurrences, is because of the picture I attached here that best explains my approach to many prophecies.Attachment 13697

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    You conveniently leave out the fact the Abraham's seed is only part of the covenant. In fact, they are two covenants.

    Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham AND his Seed were the promises made.

    Galatians 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Just because we got the better end of the deal by a wide margin, doesn't disregard those bound as slaves by the covenant. The promise was made to Abraham AND his seed, which is Christ. If we try to dismiss the descendants of Abraham and say that covenant is null and void, what is the basis for our hope that God will honor the covenant in Christ?

    Nice try. Peter, Paul, Jesus, etc called people out who were wrong and had the wrong intentions. Anti-semitism has plagued the church since the early days. It is a HUGE mistake. Okay, I will say "greatly misinformed." Is that more PC?
    The descendants of Abraham who remained part of God's elect in the time of the apostles and since that day, are only a remnant.

    There is and always has been only one chosen people - the seed of Abraham - and just as John the Baptist and Jesus the Messiah told the Jews (and just as Paul taught the Gentiles), claiming physical ancestry does not make anyone a part of the chosen nation if they do not do the works of Abraham (works which were produced by his faith in God and in His Word).

    The bondwoman was the mother of Ishmael - not ever, and never will be, part of the elect or "the seed of Abraham".

    It seems to me that what you are trying to do is go against Christ's own teaching:

    "They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).

    No one is a seed of Abraham just because of his/her birth or genetic ancestry or cultural family - and there is and always has been only one chosen nation. Just because Gentiles began to be grafted into it after Christ's sacrifice for the sins of the world, does not mean there are now "two" chosen peoples.

    If that's what you believe, you are contradicting John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul and all the other apostles.

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    Re: Daniel 9:27 Ancient Greek Septuagint

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    Paul is not speaking of bricks and mortar building literally in Jerusalem. Know ye not that there are false among the true? Many who call Christ Lord are false workers, deceivers, of their father the devil, but who show themselves to be true. They won't be able to continue the charade when Christ comes again, because then they will be known by who they truly are, "man of sin, son of perdition."

    1Co*3:16 Ά Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    1Co*3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    1Co*6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    2Co*6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Blessings,
    RW
    Also, the Greek N.T uses two words in reference to the Jerusalem temple - until the verse telling about the tearing of the veil in the temple. The word it uses in that verse is noas. It's also the word used when Christ refers to His own body of the temple.

    The other Greek word used in reference to the temple is hieron. Only twice (in two verses) is a different Greek word used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem.

    However, from the time of the death of Christ onwards, the Greek N.T uses only the word hieron in reference to the Jerusalem temple (and it uses this same word multiple times in reference to the Jerusalem temple).

    The first time we find the Greek N.T using the word naos in reference to the "temple" again, is when we are told that our bodies are the temple of God, and when we are told that the church/es is the temple of God (naos is used for both).

    Noas is also used when talking about the temple the man of lawlessness sets himself up in, and in the reference to the temple in Revelation 11 (as well as in all the other references to the temple of God in the Revelation).

    So, The Greek manuscripts make a very clear distinction by using different Greek words. It is a pity that this is lost to us in translation, but nevertheless, it's there.

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