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Thread: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

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    The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Daniel 11:21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue.....31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.....45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

    The last king of the north, whom most call the Anti-Christ, comes to his end. Then there shall be a time of trouble greater than anything in history. AT THAT TIME, everyone written in the book shall be delivered. (Presumably the Book of Life.) The Great Tribulation has nothing to do with the AC. He is toast before it even begins.

    Daniel 12:2
    And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.


    Daniel 12:2-3 give reference to the timing of this event. Can anyone figure out the timing of this event within Revelation? If so, what follows is the Great Tribulation.

    Daniel 12:4
    “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end...9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Paul tells the same story in 2 Thess.

    2 Thess 1:6
    since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Given the above passages, how can anyone support a post-trib rapture theory?

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Daniel 11:21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue.....31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.....45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

    The last king of the north, whom most call the Anti-Christ, comes to his end. Then there shall be a time of trouble greater than anything in history. AT THAT TIME, everyone written in the book shall be delivered. (Presumably the Book of Life.) The Great Tribulation has nothing to do with the AC. He is toast before it even begins.


    Where I think you have it wrong is that the "king of the north" is *not* Antichrist! Obviously, the "great trouble" that began to follow the Jews following the time of Antiochus 4 was not even the Great Tribulation often associated with Antichrist. In fact, Jesus identified the Great Tribulation of the Jews as the time that followed the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 AD.

    Luke 21.20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    That description fits the Jewish Diaspora at the time just following the invasion of Jerusalem by the Roman Army. This great tribulation of the Jews has lasted the *entire NT age!* And it will continue, according to Jesus, up until the last day of the age, when Christ returns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P
    And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.


    Daniel 12:2-3 give reference to the timing of this event. Can anyone figure out the timing of this event within Revelation? If so, what follows is the Great Tribulation.

    Daniel 12:4
    “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end...9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Paul tells the same story in 2 Thess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P

    2 Thess 1:6
    since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Given the above passages, how can anyone support a post-trib rapture theory?


    I don't know how you can fail to believe in Postrib? Paul says quite explicitly that Jesus cannot come back unless the apostasy of Antichrist takes place *1st.* That is Postrib!
    Last edited by randyk; Jul 25th 2016 at 03:25 PM.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Daniel 11:21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue.....31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.....45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

    The last king of the north, whom most call the Anti-Christ, comes to his end. Then there shall be a time of trouble greater than anything in history. AT THAT TIME, everyone written in the book shall be delivered. (Presumably the Book of Life.) The Great Tribulation has nothing to do with the AC. He is toast before it even begins.

    Daniel 12:2
    And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.


    Daniel 12:2-3 give reference to the timing of this event. Can anyone figure out the timing of this event within Revelation? If so, what follows is the Great Tribulation.

    Daniel 12:4
    “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end...9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Paul tells the same story in 2 Thess.

    2 Thess 1:6
    since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Given the above passages, how can anyone support a post-trib rapture theory?
    You seem to lend an incredible amount of value to the phrase AT THAT TIME.
    This is the cause of much misunderstanding on your part.
    1) If it IS AT THAT TIME, what TIME is it referring to? The simple answer is at the time when he comes and defiles the sanctuary. IOW there are two actions going on. On the one hand is the work of the enemy, and on the other is the work of Michael on behalf of the Jews.
    So this doesn't cause the slightest issue with post trib rapture, but does for a pre trib rapture. Pre trib would make the whole thing irrelevant.
    2) When you tie Dan 12 to Zech 14 and Rev 12, then we find that the Jews ARE protected DURING the time of Great Tribulation. So again it isn't an issue, because actually God delivers the Jews whilst the world is in the midst of a time of trouble.
    3) I am also surprised at your reliance on this phrase as it isn't there in the Hebrew, and in Greek could be just as easily translated as Now when.... Which means the actions of Dan 12 are not necessarily connected to those of Dan 11:45.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    [FONT=verdana]

    Where I think you have it wrong is that the "king of the north" is *not* Antichrist! Obviously, the "great trouble" that began to follow the Jews following the time of Antiochus 4 was not even the Great Tribulation often associated with Antichrist. In fact, Jesus identified the Great Tribulation of the Jews as the time that followed the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 AD.

    Luke 21.20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    That description fits the Jewish Diaspora at the time just following the invasion of Jerusalem by the Roman Army. This great tribulation of the Jews has lasted the *entire NT age!* And it will continue, according to Jesus, up until the last day of the age, when Christ returns.
    Well, I know that we disagree about these things. That is why I posted this:

    Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end...9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Anyhow, that isn't what is important here. The main point is deliverance AT the time of the greatest trouble in human history.

    12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered

    The Great Trib isn't the work of a man. It is the wrath of God.

    I don't know how you can fail to believe in Postrib? Paul says quite explicitly that Jesus cannot come back unless the apostasy of Antichrist takes place *1st.* That is Postrib!
    Sure, but how is the revealing of the AC, in and of itself, the greatest tribulation in history? It isn't. It is assumed.

    The apostasy, a noun in the Greek, doesn't automatically mean some kind of worldwide calamity. Again, that is assumed, but may not be the case.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You seem to lend an incredible amount of value to the phrase AT THAT TIME.
    This is the cause of much misunderstanding on your part.
    1) If it IS AT THAT TIME, what TIME is it referring to? The simple answer is at the time when he comes and defiles the sanctuary. IOW there are two actions going on. On the one hand is the work of the enemy, and on the other is the work of Michael on behalf of the Jews.
    So this doesn't cause the slightest issue with post trib rapture, but does for a pre trib rapture. Pre trib would make the whole thing irrelevant.
    Why do you make such a leap all the way back to 11:31 and not realize the verse that immediately precedes it, 11:45? You do know that chapter breaks were a late addition.

    2) When you tie Dan 12 to Zech 14 and Rev 12, then we find that the Jews ARE protected DURING the time of Great Tribulation. So again it isn't an issue, because actually God delivers the Jews whilst the world is in the midst of a time of trouble.
    Everyone written in the book is delivered. Do you think Christians are in that book?

    3) I am also surprised at your reliance on this phrase as it isn't there in the Hebrew, and in Greek could be just as easily translated as Now when.... Which means the actions of Dan 12 are not necessarily connected to those of Dan 11:45.
    The phrase doesn't make any difference. The only issue is how far back in the text one can reasonably reach. I thought you believed most of Dan 11, including 11:31, was ancient history, regardless of this:

    Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end...9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    How then can you apply 12:1 back to a verse you think was fulfilled 2200 years ago? That doesn't make any sense.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Why do you make such a leap all the way back to 11:31 and not realize the verse that immediately precedes it, 11:45? You do know that chapter breaks were a late addition.
    Yes chapter breaks are a later addition. Makes no difference, verses are also a later addition.
    However in between verse 2 and 3 is a 150 year gap, so I have no problems with gaps between various statements.
    AT THAT TIME is in regards to 12:1 and NOT 11:31.

    Everyone written in the book is delivered. Do you think Christians are in that book?
    Christians may be found in that book. However the question is NOT whether Christians are in that book or not, but rather the first part of the statement:
    But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
    This is a statement specifically about "your people" which is speaking not about everyone who is written in the book, but instead of those who are your people who are written in the book. IOW a subset of the total.

    The phrase doesn't make any difference. The only issue is how far back in the text one can reasonably reach. I thought you believed most of Dan 11, including 11:31, was ancient history, regardless of this:
    I do.

    Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end...9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
    How then can you apply 12:1 back to a verse you think was fulfilled 2200 years ago? That doesn't make any sense.
    Who says I apply Dan 12:1 to something 2200 years ago?
    The application of 12:1 is yet in the future.
    The point I made is that we have events in the past, yet their future is assured. Then we are told of the time of the end, when there will be ANOTHER time of great trouble in the nations, but Daniel's people will be delivered.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Well, I know that we disagree about these things. That is why I posted this:

    Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end...9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Anyhow, that isn't what is important here. The main point is deliverance AT the time of the greatest trouble in human history.

    12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered

    The Great Trib isn't the work of a man. It is the wrath of God.



    Sure, but how is the revealing of the AC, in and of itself, the greatest tribulation in history? It isn't. It is assumed.

    The apostasy, a noun in the Greek, doesn't automatically mean some kind of worldwide calamity. Again, that is assumed, but may not be the case.
    Yes, Daniel is one of the most difficult to interpret in all of Scriptures. I'm just stating my views--not really denigrating your own. I've held a number of different positions through the years. This is just my last view, which I've held for quite a while now.

    1) Daniel does pinpoint in 12.4 the time of the end. Though "the end" can mean anything, eg the end of a Kingdom or the end of the age, I do think this legitimately refers to the end of the age, because the general resurrection of the saints is mentioned immediately prior. And the final deliverance of Israel seems to be in context.

    But this does not mean the "king of the north" in ch. 11 has to do with the endtimes. On the contrary, I believe he refers to Antiochus 4, among the last catastrophes among the Jews before Jesus came to Israel. So it sort of sets up the choice the Jews had by the time Jesus arrived. Were they to continue in disobedience, and suffer pagan abuses? Or were they to fulfil their destiny as God's people, accepting the Messiah?

    We know what choice the Jews made at that time. And that's what brought upon the Jews the "abomination that causes desolation!" Because of their choice *against Jesus* the Jews suffered the coming of the abominable Roman Army, which desolated Jerusalem and the temple. Jewish worship was decimated, and had to be reformed into today's Rabbinic Judaism--a far cry from the original Hebrew worship at the temple.

    2) Is the Great Trib the worst catastrophe the Jews will ever suffer? If you describe it only as a short period of time connected to a single war, I think it is difficult to position it as the "worst" of all time! For example, if you define the Great Trib as the 1st Jewish War (approx. 70 AD), or if you position it as the 3.5 years rule of Antichrist, it would be difficult to define it as the worst. For some Jews the worst tribulation may be seen as the Nazi Holocaust! How can you view one unimaginable nightmare as worse than another unimaginable nightmare?

    But I view the Great Trib as an extended period of time, encompassing the entire NT age! As such, it *is* the worst time in history for Israel because it is the time when Israel lost their temple, not for 70 years, but for several thousand years! They lost their identity not for 400 years, but for over 2000 years!

    According to the Scripture I provided you in Luke 21 Jesus saw the beginning of this tribulation in the 1st Jewish War, in around 70 AD, and sees the end of this tribulation period only at his 2nd Coming! This would fit the context of Dan 12, which is talking about a period not too awfully far after Antiochus 4. It also fits the general context of Daniel as a whole, because it begins with the "4th Beast," the Roman Empire--the exceedingly vicious beast.

    3) Is the Great Trib the work of man or the wrath of God? It is both, I believe. They aren't mutually exclusive. The tribulation begun against Israel was the work of the Roman Army. But it was also the agency God used to bring His wrath down upon the Jewish people for rejecting His Son. Jesus told parables to that effect, that those who rejected the "king's son" would be put to death.

    4) What is the "apostasy?" I believe the apostasy in 2 Thes 2 is self-defined. Paul defines it as the posture and attitude of the Antichrist himself. He "opposes God," and postures himself as God. That is what Paul means by "apostasy," in my view. And according to the Revelation, this "apostasy" will impact the whole world, in one way or another. It will cause the persecution of the Church, and will lead to an international battle--the Battle of Armageddon.

    This period of Antichristian rule may not necessarily be the worst tribulation in history, but it will be the end of an age-long period of tribulation for the Jews. According to Jesus this nightmare will be cut short, lest the Jews be exterminated from the human race. And that "genocide" has been going on throughout the NT age, as you probably know?

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Daniel 11:21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue.....31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation[SIZE=2][FONT=verdana].....45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.[COLOR=#000000]

    The last king of the north, whom most call the Anti-Christ, comes to his end. Then there shall be a time of trouble greater than anything in history. AT THAT TIME, everyone written in the book shall be delivered. (Presumably the Book of Life.) The Great Tribulation has nothing to do with the AC. He is toast before it even begins.
    As discussed in other threads, that abominaton referred to in Daniel 11 is referring to Antiochus Epiphanes. This fits in with the historical context of the beginning of chapter 11, being Persia, Greece, and the four parts of Greece. Only from verse 36 do we have the antichrist in mind, clearly associated with the end times and the resurrection. The antichrist is also referred to as the beast. He is overcome AT THE SECOND COMING according to 2 Thess 2:8 and Rev 19:20

    The bible uses many words and phrases and I see that people often get confused when they try to overlap prophecies due to similar wording. In one verse wrath refers to the actual day of the second coming, in another verse wrath refers to 3.5 years of Satan's wrath. In another verse wrath may refer to the destruction of 70 AD. In one verse 3 woes are referred to, in another verse a different woe is referred to. One cannot overlap events just because of the use of a dramatic word.

    What I am saying is that the "time of trouble" could just be that one day. The day of the Lord. The second coming. This will be the greatest time of trouble for earth.
    2 Thess 1: it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    As discussed in other threads, that abominaton referred to in Daniel 11 is referring to Antiochus Epiphanes. This fits in with the historical context of the beginning of chapter 11, being Persia, Greece, and the four parts of Greece. Only from verse 36 do we have the antichrist in mind, clearly associated with the end times and the resurrection. The antichrist is also referred to as the beast.
    Do you not believe what Daniel actually wrote? Daniel 10-12 is one vision. This is what it says.

    Daniel 10:14 Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the [p]latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future.”

    (See footnote in your Bible. Literally means "end of days.")

    Daniel 12:4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time

    Daniel 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

    If scripture doesn't matter, nothing I say will make any difference. I am betting the God meant to say what He said. Besides, the king of the south isn't Egypt. The king of the north isn't Syria. All these players are identified by the prophets. The history doesn't work on any level.

    He is overcome AT THE SECOND COMING according to 2 Thess 2:8 and Rev 19:20

    The bible uses many words and phrases and I see that people often get confused when they try to overlap prophecies due to similar wording. In one verse wrath refers to the actual day of the second coming, in another verse wrath refers to 3.5 years of Satan's wrath. In another verse wrath may refer to the destruction of 70 AD. In one verse 3 woes are referred to, in another verse a different woe is referred to. One cannot overlap events just because of the use of a dramatic word.

    What I am saying is that the "time of trouble" could just be that one day. The day of the Lord. The second coming. This will be the greatest time of trouble for earth.
    You have a very good point here. I have considered this and cannot rule it out. Although the 1290 and 1335 days may suggest another period of trouble rather than a single day.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Do you not believe what Daniel actually wrote? Daniel 10-12 is one vision. This is what it says.

    Daniel 10:14 Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the [p]latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future.”

    (See footnote in your Bible. Literally means "end of days.")

    Daniel 12:4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time

    Daniel 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

    If scripture doesn't matter, nothing I say will make any difference. I am betting the God meant to say what He said. Besides, the king of the south isn't Egypt. The king of the north isn't Syria. All these players are identified by the prophets. The history doesn't work on any level.
    You say "If scripture doesn't matter, nothing I say will make any difference". That is a very true comment, I find many have their theories and stick to them without an explanation why their theory disagrees with the wording of the bible. Scripture and context is everything, we can both agree on that.

    Regarding the kings of the north and south, the prophecy names Persia and Greece and then makes reference to the four parts of Greece. At this stage it mentions the "north" and the "south" , it just so happens that of the four splits of Alexander's Grecian kingdom, only two remained significant superpowers in the region. Syria and Egypt. So there is continuity between these two kingdoms and the historical setting of Daniel 10/11 being the transition from Persia to Greece. This transition is mentioned in Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 8 and so there is no reason to deny the focus on this event in the Middle East.

    I have two answers for you regarding the "end of time". Firstly it is with current knowledge of both history and prophecy that these prophecies can best be understood as we head into the last days. So the prophecy is better understood in the end times, the understanding was sealed, but is now partly understood.
    Secondly the phrase "end of time" seems to US like a dramatic pointer to the end of the world, but not necessarily if you look at the original language. "Time" is a general word that can mean "age" or "season". The prophecy is referring to a future "season" and prophesying the events around that particular time (the Grecian kingdoms). In this context , towards the end of the "Greek time period", the events unfold. Time DOES NOT end at the second coming, and so it is not necessarily referring to the end of the world, but is referring to the end of these visions.


    You have a very good point here. I have considered this and cannot rule it out. Although the 1290 and 1335 days may suggest another period of trouble rather than a single day
    Yes there is a day of wrath/tribulation/destruction that involves the rapture and safety of the church.
    And there is the "Great tribulation" which is 3.5 years of wrath/tribulation/destruction including persecution of the church.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Given the above passages, how can anyone support a post-trib rapture theory?[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
    Nothing in the passages support a pre-trib rapture. Paul already was clear a pre-trib rapture is untrue in 2thess and 1thess tells us the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead precede the rapture of the living anyways which again can only make the rapture post-trib.

    Pre-trib is an invention of man with zero scriptural support and contradicts every scripture that speaks of the rapture event.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Nothing in the passages support a pre-trib rapture. Paul already was clear a pre-trib rapture is untrue in 2thess and 1thess tells us the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead precede the rapture of the living anyways which again can only make the rapture post-trib.

    Pre-trib is an invention of man with zero scriptural support and contradicts every scripture that speaks of the rapture event.
    2 Thess 2 is the gathering unto Christ that comes at the 7th trumpet. A gathering is not a rapture, pre or post-trib. This is the pit of assumption that catches many. This is the gathering:

    Matt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    2 Thess 2 is the gathering unto Christ that comes at the 7th trumpet. A gathering is not a rapture, pre or post-trib. This is the pit of assumption that catches many.
    The gathering and the rapture are the same exact event.



    This is the gathering:

    Matt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    It's also the rapture. Same timeframe, same people, same thing.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The gathering and the rapture are the same exact event.

    It's also the rapture. Same timeframe, same people, same thing.
    I'm afraid it isn't. I thought the same thing. This event is described many times in the OT.

    Isaiah 66:15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many......20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the Lord.

    I hope the rapture isn't a ride on a camel or mule.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    I'm afraid it isn't. I thought the same thing.
    We will have to disagree. The living are gathered to Christ via the rapture or catching up. This happens after the trib has ended and the 7th trump has sounded. All the verses on this match perfectly.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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