View Poll Results: New heaven and earth, or renewed?

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  • Brand new heaven and earth that do not exist today.

    10 52.63%
  • Renewal of the current heaven and earth.

    8 42.11%
  • Other

    1 5.26%
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Thread: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

  1. #106
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is a city, but not a city like New York or Paris, a concrete jungle, but one that is at harmony with the world.
    So there will be dwelling places, and connections between the dwelling places etc, but that doesn't mean a displacement of all nature.

    As I stated there IS a sea in Revelation 21 and 22 JUST as there is a temple. The problem is that you read the word sea, and think a large body of water - however the word "sea" is used with two other meanings in Revelation, as well as in other prophetic books.
    The first usage is that of the place of the dead whose wear-abouts are unknown. We read this in Rev 20 as well, when the sea gives up its dead.
    The second usage is that of nations which have other powers associated with them. We rad this in Rev 13.

    Both are possible meanings which Rev 21 is using. the FACT is that the River of life flows out of the NJ, and eventually will go into the sea.
    The same is true of the temple, for we have that word used meaning His people, and also for the Heavenly temple, as well as the physical building in Jerusalem.
    The physical building which was used as God was apart from Man will be no more, yet the Heavenly temple will descend out of Heaven, as the Heavenly Temple is in FACT the throne room of God.
    I don't have a big objection to your point about the sea. My main point is the detail of Ezekiel. For example these are mortals dealing with death and sacrifice in the Messianic Age. They are obviously not eternal beings. As opposed to Rev 21 which describes only the saved in Jerusalem.

  2. #107
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    An interesting subject. I'm inclined, for the moment, to go with the idea that there are 2 Jerusalems being spoken of--one that is saved at the return of Christ, and the other coming down out of heaven at the end of the Millennium.

    There is an absence of sea in the New Jerusalem, and I see no reason for an ocean at that time. Presently, the world geography separates nations, which is a good thing when human sin is involved. But when sin is removed, there may be no need for seas.

    I agree that Christ comes back with the Church at his 2nd Coming, at the beginning of the Millennium. But I have no idea if immortals and mortals will mix on the planet during the 1000 years? My inclination, right or wrong, is that the Church and Christ will be ephemeral and ethereal, able to come and go like angels, ruling from "heaven." We will return with Christ with the strict purpose of establishing Christian rule here, disposing of the devil. But our rule will be from heaven until the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem comes down from God.

    The New Jerusalem reaches up to space. The Millennial Jerusalem will be "saved," but will be an ordinary city of mortal believers. By contrast, the New Jerusalem will be populated only with immortals of the "saved" kind. And the city itself will reach higher than a satellite. Incidentally, Christ didn't go to prepare this multi-story complex. He went to the *cross* to prepare for our salvation. "I go to prepare a place for you" refers to his death for our salvation, and not to a "building project," in my opinion.

  3. #108
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I don't have a big objection to your point about the sea. My main point is the detail of Ezekiel. For example these are mortals dealing with death and sacrifice in the Messianic Age. They are obviously not eternal beings. As opposed to Rev 21 which describes only the saved in Jerusalem.
    Revelation 21 & 22 does NOT only deal with eternal beings. What Rev 21 & 22 does is echo Isaiah 65 & 66 and bring in Ezekiel 47 & 48. Notice that Ezekiel 48:31 states the gates of the city are named after the tribes, which Rev 21:12 ALSO states.
    Further in Rev 21 & 22 you have people who are inside the city who do not die, but you have sinners and mortals outside the city.
    Ezekiel's focus (as is Isaiah mainly) is the people of Israel, whereas Revelation is about those who were resurrected from the dead. yet other than this distinction, the same description is made, the same points highlighted etc.
    I find no way that God is going to twice have the River of Life flowing from the city of Jerusalem or that the Tree of Life is going to grow twice - especially as Jerusalem is NOT taken again AFTER Jesus returns.
    I used to think as you do, but every single objection I can find is dealt with, and no good answers for why we have TWO NHNE's.

  4. #109
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    An interesting subject. I'm inclined, for the moment, to go with the idea that there are 2 Jerusalems being spoken of--one that is saved at the return of Christ, and the other coming down out of heaven at the end of the Millennium.
    What does it mean to be saved? Surely it means to become the Bride of Christ! Therefore the saved Jerusalem IS the NJ.

    There is an absence of sea in the New Jerusalem, and I see no reason for an ocean at that time. Presently, the world geography separates nations, which is a good thing when human sin is involved. But when sin is removed, there may be no need for seas.
    Read Genesis, it may help - the sea is part of the world. There will be seas and oceans in the NHNE. See my post to DurbanDude explaining what scripture is meaning.
    Let's assume that God makes a single continent - that will make no difference if there is no sin. Further if there is a single continent then it will be surrounded by sea. Even when the water was above, yet still there was a sea.

    I agree that Christ comes back with the Church at his 2nd Coming, at the beginning of the Millennium. But I have no idea if immortals and mortals will mix on the planet during the 1000 years? My inclination, right or wrong, is that the Church and Christ will be ephemeral and ethereal, able to come and go like angels, ruling from "heaven." We will return with Christ with the strict purpose of establishing Christian rule here, disposing of the devil. But our rule will be from heaven until the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem comes down from God.
    the picture we are given is that Jesus was NOT ephemeral or ethereal - not a ghost at all. I prefer CS Lewis idea, that we will be more physical, more real, so that the things of this world will be more like shadows. There is biblical basis for this idea.

    The New Jerusalem reaches up to space. The Millennial Jerusalem will be "saved," but will be an ordinary city of mortal believers. By contrast, the New Jerusalem will be populated only with immortals of the "saved" kind. And the city itself will reach higher than a satellite. Incidentally, Christ didn't go to prepare this multi-story complex. He went to the *cross* to prepare for our salvation. "I go to prepare a place for you" refers to his death for our salvation, and not to a "building project," in my opinion.
    There is a question over whether the NJ will go into space as high as some think. This is also due to not really considering what is stated properly.
    Most jump at Rev 21:16 and don't consider the implication of verse 17:
    The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia.d Its length and width and height are equal.
    He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel’s measurement.

    Notice in verse 17 the wall is 144 cubits high. This is about 216 feet or 72 yards. This is a nonsensical height IF the ENTIRE city is 1300 miles high.
    So verse 16 seems to be saying that each side is 1,300 miles. Possibly some aspect, such as a mountain in the middle might rise to that height, yet I am dubious about that too.
    His place for us, is a place to dwell with Him.

  5. #110
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    What does it mean to be saved? Surely it means to become the Bride of Christ! Therefore the saved Jerusalem IS the NJ.
    I wouldn't say otherwise. Saved Jerusalem is indeed the New Jerusalem. But the question is, When does the New Jerusalem begin? It may actually begin at Christ's 2nd Coming. But then again, When does the New Jerusalem come down from heaven? It is at the end of the Millennium.

    Thus, it seems that we have the same New Jerusalem first appearing at Christ's 2nd Advent, but then coming down in a new heavenly state after the Millennium. The 1st Jerusalem that is saved may indeed be called the New Jerusalem. But the one that comes down from heaven at the end of the Millennium may be a revision of the same. I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Read Genesis, it may help - the sea is part of the world. There will be seas and oceans in the NHNE. See my post to DurbanDude explaining what scripture is meaning.
    Let's assume that God makes a single continent - that will make no difference if there is no sin. Further if there is a single continent then it will be surrounded by sea. Even when the water was above, yet still there was a sea.
    All I know is that we are told New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven at the end of the Millennium. This indicates a major transformation of earthly Jerusalem will take place. Whether or not this involves the end of "seas" I don't know. It sounds like it though. And as I said, I see little need for the seas, unless God simply wants to keep all of the sea creatures He created in Genesis 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    the picture we are given is that Jesus was NOT ephemeral or ethereal - not a ghost at all. I prefer CS Lewis idea, that we will be more physical, more real, so that the things of this world will be more like shadows. There is biblical basis for this idea.
    I didn't mean to imply Jesus and Christians will be "ghosts." That sounds like disembodied spirits. I believe in the physical resurrection of the saints. I believe Jesus was physically raised from the dead and somehow remains in his physical state somewhere in heaven. If so, then we can physically exist in heaven as well.

    By "ephemeral" I mean transitory--here today and gone tomorrow. We come back with Jesus, but don't remain here. By "ethereal" I mean physical properties will belong to our bodies that allow us to live in heaven, or perhaps even pass through walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    There is a question over whether the NJ will go into space as high as some think. This is also due to not really considering what is stated properly.
    Most jump at Rev 21:16 and don't consider the implication of verse 17:
    The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia.d Its length and width and height are equal.
    He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel’s measurement.

    Notice in verse 17 the wall is 144 cubits high. This is about 216 feet or 72 yards. This is a nonsensical height IF the ENTIRE city is 1300 miles high.
    So verse 16 seems to be saying that each side is 1,300 miles. Possibly some aspect, such as a mountain in the middle might rise to that height, yet I am dubious about that too.
    His place for us, is a place to dwell with Him.
    This is all speculative. I can imagine a wall on the ground might keep away certain things that today we associate with human activities. But the height of this city extends into space--no doubt about that. 1400 miles high--that's a long way up. See this.

  6. #111
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I wouldn't say otherwise. Saved Jerusalem is indeed the New Jerusalem. But the question is, When does the New Jerusalem begin? It may actually begin at Christ's 2nd Coming. But then again, When does the New Jerusalem come down from heaven? It is at the end of the Millennium.
    Why do you say the NJ comes down at the end of the Millennium? Is this because Rev 21 comes after Rev 20?
    The point made is that the NJ is at the START of the Millennium, for that is when Jesus dwells there, and where Jesus is, we will be too.

    Thus, it seems that we have the same New Jerusalem first appearing at Christ's 2nd Advent, but then coming down in a new heavenly state after the Millennium. The 1st Jerusalem that is saved may indeed be called the New Jerusalem. But the one that comes down from heaven at the end of the Millennium may be a revision of the same. I don't know.
    Not really. Only one New Jerusalem, unless you replace the first NJ with a second NJ, which makes no sense.

    All I know is that we are told New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven at the end of the Millennium. This indicates a major transformation of earthly Jerusalem will take place. Whether or not this involves the end of "seas" I don't know. It sounds like it though. And as I said, I see little need for the seas, unless God simply wants to keep all of the sea creatures He created in Genesis 1?
    As we aren't told that, then it seems you don't know at all. As the world IS sea, until land is delineated and the sea boundary established, and as the River of Life flows into two seas, and as there is no reason for not having a physical sea, it comes down to simplistic reading of scripture.

    I didn't mean to imply Jesus and Christians will be "ghosts." That sounds like disembodied spirits. I believe in the physical resurrection of the saints. I believe Jesus was physically raised from the dead and somehow remains in his physical state somewhere in heaven. If so, then we can physically exist in heaven as well.
    If "in heaven" you mean "heaven will be on earth" then I will agree with you, but otherwise we won't be living in heaven (meaning out of this world.)

    By "ephemeral" I mean transitory--here today and gone tomorrow. We come back with Jesus, but don't remain here. By "ethereal" I mean physical properties will belong to our bodies that allow us to live in heaven, or perhaps even pass through walls.
    We won't be transitory but live for ever. the earth is our home, made for us.

    This is all speculative. I can imagine a wall on the ground might keep away certain things that today we associate with human activities. But the height of this city extends into space--no doubt about that. 1400 miles high--that's a long way up. See this.
    Actually I highlighted that the scripture in question shows that the city may be that high, but what part of it is not stated, or it may be an error of understanding or even of manuscript. there is a lot of doubt about it and it probably will NOT extend into space. I don't think John was shown a space elevator.

  7. #112
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Why do you say the NJ comes down at the end of the Millennium? Is this because Rev 21 comes after Rev 20?
    The point made is that the NJ is at the START of the Millennium, for that is when Jesus dwells there, and where Jesus is, we will be too.


    Not really. Only one New Jerusalem, unless you replace the first NJ with a second NJ, which makes no sense.


    As we aren't told that, then it seems you don't know at all. As the world IS sea, until land is delineated and the sea boundary established, and as the River of Life flows into two seas, and as there is no reason for not having a physical sea, it comes down to simplistic reading of scripture.


    If "in heaven" you mean "heaven will be on earth" then I will agree with you, but otherwise we won't be living in heaven (meaning out of this world.)


    We won't be transitory but live for ever. the earth is our home, made for us.


    Actually I highlighted that the scripture in question shows that the city may be that high, but what part of it is not stated, or it may be an error of understanding or even of manuscript. there is a lot of doubt about it and it probably will NOT extend into space. I don't think John was shown a space elevator.
    Since I'm basically on the same page with you for the most part, the following is to further add to your points.

    Assuming the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, where do some figure Jesus will be dwelling during this thousand years if not in the NJ?

    Revelation 2:7*He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


    One is to seriously believe that not one overcomer gets to start eating from the tree of life upon Christ's return with the kingdom, but instead has to wait a thousand years and a little season, post the 2nd coming, before Revelation 2:7 can begin to be fulfilled for overcomers?

    Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    When do they fulfill the part about doing his commandments? Wouldn't it be something they would need to do in this present age, and in the next age which begins with the 2nd coming, they are then rewarded with having right to the tree of life, and that they may enter in through the gates into the city, at that time?

  8. #113
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Why do you say the NJ comes down at the end of the Millennium? Is this because Rev 21 comes after Rev 20?
    The point made is that the NJ is at the START of the Millennium, for that is when Jesus dwells there, and where Jesus is, we will be too.


    Not really. Only one New Jerusalem, unless you replace the first NJ with a second NJ, which makes no sense.


    As we aren't told that, then it seems you don't know at all. As the world IS sea, until land is delineated and the sea boundary established, and as the River of Life flows into two seas, and as there is no reason for not having a physical sea, it comes down to simplistic reading of scripture.


    If "in heaven" you mean "heaven will be on earth" then I will agree with you, but otherwise we won't be living in heaven (meaning out of this world.)


    We won't be transitory but live for ever. the earth is our home, made for us.


    Actually I highlighted that the scripture in question shows that the city may be that high, but what part of it is not stated, or it may be an error of understanding or even of manuscript. there is a lot of doubt about it and it probably will NOT extend into space. I don't think John was shown a space elevator.
    Cmon! A space elevator would be so cool! In all honesty, no, I don't know the answer to this one. I'm just trying to stay true to the Scriptures and to my best understanding of them. I have no agenda.

  9. #114
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Since I'm basically on the same page with you for the most part, the following is to further add to your points.

    Assuming the thousand years are after the 2nd coming, where do some figure Jesus will be dwelling during this thousand years if not in the NJ?

    Revelation 2:7*He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


    One is to seriously believe that not one overcomer gets to start eating from the tree of life upon Christ's return with the kingdom, but instead has to wait a thousand years and a little season, post the 2nd coming, before Revelation 2:7 can begin to be fulfilled for overcomers?

    Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    When do they fulfill the part about doing his commandments? Wouldn't it be something they would need to do in this present age, and in the next age which begins with the 2nd coming, they are then rewarded with having right to the tree of life, and that they may enter in through the gates into the city, at that time?
    I guess one of my biggest hangups is on the idea that immortals will dwell in an earthly Jerusalem, and intermingle with sinful mortals. That's like angels coexisting with sinful humans on earth today!

    The other thing, though, is that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, which is mentioned *after* the description of the Millennium. Although I recognize that the Book of Revelation is not always linear, it does seem that the perfection of the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven, must take place when the end of sinful human history takes place. And that would be at the *end* of the Millennium.

    Again, I don't know. I could go either way.

  10. #115
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Cmon! A space elevator would be so cool! In all honesty, no, I don't know the answer to this one. I'm just trying to stay true to the Scriptures and to my best understanding of them. I have no agenda.
    I have no agenda either, and I think a Space Elevator would be great.
    However I also do not think the NJ was measured into space, but see the height of the Walls as indicative of the height. of buildings, IOW HUMAN sized, not GIANT sized.
    It is only the one word in Rev 21:16, which could mean height as in upwards, or it could mean as in across, or I have read it is even missing from some manuscripts.
    So I don't believe it is 1300 miles high. This is trying to stay true to the scriptures especially the context.

  11. #116
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I guess one of my biggest hangups is on the idea that immortals will dwell in an earthly Jerusalem, and intermingle with sinful mortals. That's like angels coexisting with sinful humans on earth today!

    The other thing, though, is that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, which is mentioned *after* the description of the Millennium. Although I recognize that the Book of Revelation is not always linear, it does seem that the perfection of the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven, must take place when the end of sinful human history takes place. And that would be at the *end* of the Millennium.

    Again, I don't know. I could go either way.

    If Jesus and the saints rule the world with a rod of iron, I don't see the problem. It's not like the mortals will also be living in the NJ. They will be dwelling outside of it instead. Zech 14 depicts these same mortals coming up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles, where I take Jerusalem to be meaning the NJ in that particular context.

    But if the NJ doesn't come down from heaven until after the millennium, and assuming that is true, no way then can Premil be the correct position if that is the case.


    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


    There is only one first heaven and the first earth, and that it clearly precedes a new heaven and a new earth. The NHNE per Isaiah 65 has to fit somewhere. It obviously has to fit after the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, the fact Isaiah 65 indicates it is a NHNE. Revelation 21:1 above clearly shows us the chronology of events, thus there is only room for one NHNE after the first heaven and the first earth are passed away. Thus a contradiction if the NHNE in Isaiah 65, and the NHNE in Revelation 21:1, are not one and the same.

  12. #117
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth. New or Renewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If Jesus and the saints rule the world with a rod of iron, I don't see the problem. It's not like the mortals will also be living in the NJ. They will be dwelling outside of it instead. Zech 14 depicts these same mortals coming up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles, where I take Jerusalem to be meaning the NJ in that particular context.

    But if the NJ doesn't come down from heaven until after the millennium, and assuming that is true, no way then can Premil be the correct position if that is the case.


    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


    There is only one first heaven and the first earth, and that it clearly precedes a new heaven and a new earth. The NHNE per Isaiah 65 has to fit somewhere. It obviously has to fit after the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, the fact Isaiah 65 indicates it is a NHNE. Revelation 21:1 above clearly shows us the chronology of events, thus there is only room for one NHNE after the first heaven and the first earth are passed away. Thus a contradiction if the NHNE in Isaiah 65, and the NHNE in Revelation 21:1, are not one and the same.
    You got a point. Like I said, I don't really know. Thanks.

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