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Thread: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

  1. #1
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    Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    it is easy to make this mistake and then try to align events between chapters which will confuse the reader. Understand that tribulations can be great and many and that "The Great Tribulation" is not define to any one specific period of time.

    Rev 7:1-12 = The 144,000 being sealed and protected up to the 1260th day.

    1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
    2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
    3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
    4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
    5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
    6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
    7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
    8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

    Rev 7:12-17 = the overcomers of the church (killed) up to the 1260th day

    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    And also why do we know that they are all killed up to the 1260th day? Rev 13.

    Rev 13
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    Notice in Rev 7 the "great tribulation" occurs before the 1260th day. In Matt 24 "great tribulation" occurs AFTER the 1290th day. (See verse 15 AOD reference Dan 12)

    Matt 24
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


    So again there are two tribulations that are referenced as "great" However they are not the same time period and the one in Matt 24 is "greater".

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    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    The great tribulation referred to in Rev 7:14, is the preceding event: Rev 6:12-17 - the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. It is translated in my REBible as 'the great ordeal'.

    You correctly state that the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, occurs later; in the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. The terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, the Sixth Seal, is the next prophesied event we can expect. It is the event that will come unexpectedly; like a thief. It will change the world and set the scene for a One World Govt, but we Christians have the Lord's promise of His protection, Acts 2:21 and then our gathering into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24-26

    Note that Rev 7 does not say that anyone will be killed. Or that anyone goes to heaven. These ideas are speculative, not scriptural.

  3. #3

    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    1. Tribulation happens in a realm called the foundation of the world.
    2. Great Tribulation happens in a realm called the end of the world.
    3. Desolation is an elevated and more intense form of tribulation (more intense than the Great Tribulation). It happens beyond the world.... in the holy place that is set in heaven, wherein are angels and saints of God.


    Any kind of pain inflicted upon a soul in the world, which is caused by an iniquity, is known as a tribulation.

    Any kind of sorrow inflicted upon a soul in the world, which is caused by an error/wickedness and which leads to death, is known as a great tribulation.

    Any kind of evil inflicted upon a spirit in Heaven, which is caused by the devil and which leads to destruction, is known as desolation.

    Rev. 7:13-17 is about souls of men who overcome the Great Tribulation and are made saints in Heaven. Some may face desolation while some will not depending on who indulge trespasses.

    Rev. 13:5-7 is about saints who will experience desolation because the one who makes desolate will overcome them in war. While the war that makes desolate is ongoing, souls of men who are yet made saints will continue to experience tribulation and/or the great tribulation in the world.

    Matt. 24:15-21, like Rev. 13:5-7, is about the time of desolation. Specifically, Matt. 24:15-21 tells us what saints should do when they see desolation coming to their holy place.

    Generally, saints are advised to:
    • flee the holy place into higher places in Christ and in God
    • not return to the holy place if they are remnants living in the field (world)
    • avoid flight in winter while nurturing children (born of God)
    • avoid returning into the realm of end of the world because of the most fierce great tribulation ever that will go on simultaneously with the desolation.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  4. #4

    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    If the first great tribulation will never happen again how can there be 2 great tribulations?

    Matthew 24
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


    Or if Matthew 24's great tribulation is the 2nd one:

    Matthew 24
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Meaning there was no great tribulation before Matthew 24's.

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    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul-to-Paul View Post
    If the first great tribulation will never happen again how can there be 2 great tribulations?

    Matthew 24
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


    Or if Matthew 24's great tribulation is the 2nd one:

    Matthew 24
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Meaning there was no great tribulation before Matthew 24's.
    What about these tribulations?

    Matt 24:

    9: “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    IOW he's saying that Rev 7 where it uses the term GT, is not the GT in Matthew 24:21.

    Not my view i just hope this clarifies.

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    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul-to-Paul View Post
    If the first great tribulation will never happen again how can there be 2 great tribulations?

    Matthew 24
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


    Or if Matthew 24's great tribulation is the 2nd one:

    Matthew 24
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Meaning there was no great tribulation before Matthew 24's.
    No. There could a great tribulation prior which was not as severe....the one in Matt 24 is just "greater".

  7. #7

    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    IOW he's saying that Rev 7 where it uses the term GT, is not the GT in Matthew 24:21.
    How can it not be the same when the term in Rev 7:14 is very technical and very specific? Please note that the literal rendering of the Greek is "the tribulation, the great" -- τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης. And in Matthew 24 it is described as a unique period, such as has never been, nor ever will be.

    Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
    καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου.

  8. #8

    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    What about these tribulations?

    Matt 24:

    9: “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    IOW he's saying that Rev 7 where it uses the term GT, is not the GT in Matthew 24:21.

    Not my view i just hope this clarifies.
    The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is the great tribulation that Jesus is explaining. The saints in Revelation 7 came out of that great tribulation spoken in Matthew 24. They are the same event.

    Matt 24:
    9: “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death,


    You figured it out. The great tribulation deals with the death of believers.

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    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    How can it not be the same when the term in Rev 7:14 is very technical and very specific? Please note that the literal rendering of the Greek is "the tribulation, the great" -- τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης. And in Matthew 24 it is described as a unique period, such as has never been, nor ever will be.

    Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
    καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου.
    Don't you see that the GT in Rev 7 has to be completed by 1290 days and the aod....then after the Aod there is another mention of a gt but one which has never been seen.

    Now why do I say this....because those saints in Rev 7 are killed in battle by the end of 42 months 1260 dYs rev 13

  10. #10

    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by Saul-to-Paul View Post
    The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is the great tribulation that Jesus is explaining.
    It seems that you have a misunderstanding about this chapter. While the Great Tribulation is included in the prophecies, this chapter is a summary of the major events from the first coming of Christ until His second coming.

    The saints in Revelation 7 came out of that great tribulation spoken in Matthew 24. They are the same event.
    That's correct. However, most people assume that "came out of" means "went through and came out of". But it could also mean "escaped", and since the GT was not designed for the Church, escaped is more consistent with Bible truth. The GT is an expression of God's wrath against the unbelieving and the ungodly, but Christians are told that "we are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation".

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    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Note that Rev 7 does not say that anyone will be killed. Or that anyone goes to heaven. These ideas are speculative, not scriptural.
    Revelation 6:9-11 is pretty clear that they were killed, and will be avenged after the rest of the martyrs are slain:

    When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

    Revelation 7:9,13-14

    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands...
    Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    However, most people assume that "came out of" means "went through and came out of". But it could also mean "escaped"
    I don't believe it can mean escaped in light of the scripture above and many others, only a very small portion of believers will survive/escape the great tribulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    since the GT was not designed for the Church, escaped is more consistent with Bible truth. The GT is an expression of God's wrath against the unbelieving and the ungodly, but Christians are told that "we are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation".
    This is a nice idea and unfortunately what most evangelical churches teach today, but I believe it is a false doctrine that will cause many shallow-rooted believers to fall away when the church starts getting persecuted in developed countries; it is a new doctrine along the lines of what Paul warned about in 2 Timothy 4:

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

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    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    I do see the "Great Distress" of the Jews mentioned in Luke 21 and the "Great Tribulation" out of which came the Great Multitude in Rev 7 as being the same Tribulation Period. I can reconcile them because they do not refer to a small period of time, but as inclusive of the entire NT Period, in which the Jewish People are in spiritual exile and out of which Christians must emerge victorious in their testimony to Christ.

    We often refer to the 3.5 years of Antichristian rule as the "Great Tribulation." But really that's not what the Bible calls it. The Bible calls the 3.5 years of Antichristian rule the period in which Antichrist reigns, the 2 Witnesses prophesy, the woman in the wilderness is preserved, the Christians endure, etc.

    This small period of time is not to be confused with the Tribulation of the entire age, which is how Jesus characterized it as applicable to the Jewish People as a whole, because due to the sin of the majority and due to the influence of a small number of wicked leaders, the majority allowed a barrier to be erected between God and themselves. That barrier will finally be lifted, I believe, at the return of Christ.

    And so, this current age is tumutuous for the Jews, because just as happened under the Law that they suffered oppression and trouble when they were in disobedience to the Law so also in the present age they continue to suffer oppression and trouble while they are out of compliance with Christ's law, and out of covenant with Christ's covenant.

    And since Israel merely led the way for all godly nations to go lukewarm and decline, spiritually, so we've seen throughout the NT age Gentile nations become godly, as Israel had been, and then fall into spiritual decline, thus bringing upon themselves oppression and trouble. So even for Christians the current age has meant tribulation and distress, due to no fault of their own. We live in Christian nations that suffer decline, and then share those resulting problems.

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    Re: Great tribulation Rev 7 is not the same time period as GT of Matt 24

    The 'great ordeal' of Rev 7:14, refers directly to the terrible Sixth Seal event. It is the world wide judgement/punishment of God upon a world that is now, once again 'as in the days of Noah'.
    After that great world changer, as Joel 2:2b says 'the like has never been, nor will be again', Christians will gather in all of the holy Land, where Jesus will select the 144,000, Rev 14:1-5

    It isn't until the leader of the OWG comes to the new Christian nation; in all of that area given to Abraham, and negotiates a 7 year peace treaty with them, - the first half will be peaceful, but the last 1260 days will be the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. This GT, will mostly affect just the people of the OWG and who have taken 'the mark of the beast', not those Christians in their place of safety. Rev 12:14

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