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Thread: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

  1. #16

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    According to Scripture, Jesus had to be "reckoned among the wicked/lawbreakers."

    Which law? Roman law.

    Under Roman government, citizens of a conquered, occupied nation (Israel) were forbidden from exercising capital punishment without the approval of Rome (hence the involvement of Pilate in Jesus' crucifixion) and were also forbidden from bearing lethal arms, like a sword. The right to bear a sword was reserved, even in non-occupied lands, to Roman CITIZENS. Matthew (Levi), as a Roman revenue official, most likely did have the right to bear arms. None of the others would have.

    When Jesus says "Do you guys have a sword? If not, somebody get one" it was for the purpose of fulfilling Scripture that He would be "counted among the transgressors" When they tell Jesus that they have two swords (probably Peter and Simon the Zealot!), Jesus says "Cool. That's enough."

    Why we try to make an eternal command out of Jesus' every word is beyond me.

  2. #17

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    According to Scripture, Jesus had to be "reckoned among the wicked/lawbreakers."

    Which law? Roman law.

    Under Roman government, citizens of a conquered, occupied nation (Israel) were forbidden from exercising capital punishment without the approval of Rome (hence the involvement of Pilate in Jesus' crucifixion) and were also forbidden from bearing lethal arms, like a sword. The right to bear a sword was reserved, even in non-occupied lands, to Roman CITIZENS. Matthew (Levi), as a Roman revenue official, most likely did have the right to bear arms. None of the others would have.
    Sure, so, show us references!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    When Jesus says "Do you guys have a sword? If not, somebody get one" it was for the purpose of fulfilling Scripture that He would be "counted among the transgressors" When they tell Jesus that they have two swords (probably Peter and Simon the Zealot!), Jesus says "Cool. That's enough."

    Why we try to make an eternal command out of Jesus' every word is beyond me.
    Well, gee, why we make a command out of Jesus' every word, is simple: He is NOT a normal human that makes human mistakes and His Words tell us to obey His Sayings.

    MT 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

  3. #18

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    1. Research the Corpus Juris Civilis, which Justinian codified in the early 500's. It's a compilation of all the Roman laws from the beginning to the end of the Roman Empire. Only citizens had the right to bear arms, then they were limited by proximity to the city center and to government officials. Jesus and His crew were not citizens of Rome.

    2. Jesus also said not to take a purse, to go to a house and ask for food and shelter while traveling. You booked a hotel in the last few years?
    Or do you just fly into down, walk up to a door, and demand that the people feed and shelter you?

  4. #19

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    1. Research the Corpus Juris Civilis, which Justinian codified in the early 500's. It's a compilation of all the Roman laws from the beginning to the end of the Roman Empire. Only citizens had the right to bear arms, then they were limited by proximity to the city center and to government officials. Jesus and His crew were not citizens of Rome.

    2. Jesus also said not to take a purse, to go to a house and ask for food and shelter while traveling. You booked a hotel in the last few years?
    Or do you just fly into down, walk up to a door, and demand that the people feed and shelter you?
    1. I will check.

    2. Well, gee, I didn't say that everything is meant for us today, some of it was meant for them, in those times, only and that is why one prays for discernment.

    But, as one brother remarked, and I think it was on this board, once upon a time, "whatever is practicable and sensible in scripture, do."
    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

  5. #20

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    So, still carrying your Gladius hispaneisis.

  6. #21
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    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    According to Scripture, Jesus had to be "reckoned among the wicked/lawbreakers."

    Which law? Roman law.

    Under Roman government, citizens of a conquered, occupied nation (Israel) were forbidden from exercising capital punishment without the approval of Rome (hence the involvement of Pilate in Jesus' crucifixion) and were also forbidden from bearing lethal arms, like a sword. The right to bear a sword was reserved, even in non-occupied lands, to Roman CITIZENS. Matthew (Levi), as a Roman revenue official, most likely did have the right to bear arms. None of the others would have.

    When Jesus says "Do you guys have a sword? If not, somebody get one" it was for the purpose of fulfilling Scripture that He would be "counted among the transgressors" When they tell Jesus that they have two swords (probably Peter and Simon the Zealot!), Jesus says "Cool. That's enough."
    I don't buy it. Nothing in scripture indicates it.

  7. #22

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I don't buy it. Nothing in scripture indicates it.
    Not to mention that it is Jesus' Rule to obey man's law's.

    But, then again, wouldn't it be interesting if weapon law was the exception?
    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

  8. #23
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    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    Not to mention that it is Jesus' Rule to obey man's law's.

    But, then again, wouldn't it be interesting if weapon law was the exception?
    You seem to be fixated on something I not sure which. Are you fixated on the lethal tool itself or the destruction of "bad guys?"

    Because God is fixated on saving lives - even the "bad guys." And His Sword cuts much deeper than your steel man made implement.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  9. #24
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    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    It seems the O.P. has been really sidetracked-- what say you Yonathan?
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  10. #25

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    You seem to be fixated on something I not sure which. Are you fixated on the lethal tool itself or the destruction of "bad guys?"

    Because God is fixated on saving lives - even the "bad guys." And His Sword cuts much deeper than your steel man made implement.
    Really?

    I'm surprised you didn't notice:

    Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (Matt 7:24)

    But, perhaps you could show us all why it is not His Word that I am fixated on?

    Still, since it is the weapon that saves so many lives every year, is there a difference?

    And, since it is the "end" of the bad-guys that is the result of saving lives 25% of the time, is it significant?

    A driver passing through Tonopah, AZ, saved a state trooper's life after a harrowing incident. Just before sunrise, the trooper had stopped to investigate an accident. After discovering a flipped vehicle, the officer went to set out flares to warn other motorists. The driver of the overturned car opened fire on th officer and struck him, prompting the officer to attempt to subdue the man. Apassing motorist and concealed- carry permit holder saw the attack and stopped, asking the officer if he needs help. After the officer answered, "yes," the armed citizen went to his vehicle and retrieved his firearm, warning the trooper's attacker to stop. The man did not, so the Good Samaritan shot him once, wounding him. While the passerby was tending to the trooper's injuries, the assailant attacked a second time. The armed citizen shot the man again, this time killing him. Arizona Department Of Public Safety spokesman Captain Damon Cecil said the motorist saved the trooper's life. (The Arizona Republic, Phoenix, AZ)

    Two Montana miscreants were no match for an armed homeowner during an attempted burglary. Although the intruders targeted an empty cabin in Wolf Creek, MT, the residents came back while the bad guys were ransacking the home. The couple thought something might be amiss when they spotted an unfamiliar SUV parked outside their cabin. As the couple approached the abode, the two burglars exited the cabin and accosted the homeowners. One of the two suspects pulled a firearm and tried to shoot it, but the gun misfired. While he attempted to chamber another round, his accomplice approached the homeowner in a threatening manner with a firearm, prompting the armed citizen to draw his concealed handgun and shoot the approaching scoundrel in the leg. The residents were unharmed, and police later arrested the two suspects. (Independent Record, Helena, MT, 12302016)

    UBER has a policy barring firearms, but a Florida driver and his fare are alive today because the driver didn't follow the rules. The ride-sharing employee was taking a client to the Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport when a minivan suddenly cut him off in traffic on a busy street. A man then exited the driver's side of the van with two handguns drawn and attempted to rob those in the car. Instead of getting any money, the gunman got shot after the Uber driver drew his concealed firearm and exchanged fire with the assailant. The attacker, who was shot multiple times, died on the scene, and his accomplice drove the van away. (Miami Herald, Miami, FL, 12192016)

    Would-be Thieves picked the wrong victim when they targeted a gun store for a robbery in Mableton, GA. The owner was minding the shop when two armed thugs burst through the doors in broad daylight and held the man at gunpoint. One of the robbers shouted at him, "Get down on the floor or I'll kill you," the merchant recalled, adding that they then shot at him. With the lives of himself, his employee, and two customers in danger, the business owner pulled out a firearm and fatally shot one of the suspects. He then fired at the second man, who fled the store. Authorities said the business owner acted lawfully in self-defense. (11alive.com, Atlanta, GA, 01172017)

    Paternal love knows no bounds. Even after being shot twice himself, a Frankford, PA, father of four defended his family during a home invasion. After hearing a knock on the door to his home late one night, the homeowner answered only to have the person on thee porch force his way inside. The resident's wife barricaded herself and the couple's four daughters in an upstairs room during the altercation. The intruder shot, hitting the victim twice, but the armed citizen retrieved a firearm and fired back, with the bullet fatally striking his attacker in the head. The robber was declared dead at the scene. The injured protector was taken to the hospital where he was listed in serious condition. (The Philadelphia Inquirer, Philadelphia, PA, 01172017)

    Attackers come in all forms, both animal and human. A 17-year-old boy in Lignum, VA, was at home looking after his neices and nephews when he heard noises outside that alarmed him. Concerned for the safety of the children in his care, the boy grabbed his rifle and went to investigate. he saw what turned out to be a 545-pound feral boar tearing up the front yard. The boar saw the boy and charged him. The boy fired in response. "When he came up to me the way he did, I had no choice but to shoot him," the teen told local media. (Richmond.com, Richmond, VA, 012720170
    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

  11. #26

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    "We are not commanded to let heathen run us over without a fight." Please use scripture to back up your statements. Do not misunderstand nor read something that is not there when Jesus says for the disciples to sell something and buy a sword. Jesus NEVER instructed anyone to physically fight. Jesus in fact told His disciples that they would be "run over" by people and in fact they were. They were beaten, imprisoned and killed and yet God did not stop these things from happening. We can not let our society nor any society dictate what Jesus has instructed us on how to live and treat others. Do not read what you want from the teachings of Jesus. We must let His Words speak for themselves without our prejudice.

  12. #27

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    So?

    And, as usual, we have to ask: why are we not Apostles?
    I don't know anybody who upholds the qualifications of a prophet or apostle anymore. There's no longer any use for them because they were necessary for the establishment of the early church. An apostle must have either seen Jesus or been hand picked by Jesus.

    Paul said, "Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" 1 Cor. 9:1 An apostle had to be a witness of the resurrection of Christ. When the 11 apostles met to discuss who would succeed Judas, the qualification was that he had to accompany them through the earthly life of Jesus and be a witness to the resurrection.

    OR
    Jesus had to hand-picked them himself. There were more than 12 apostles, probably closer to 20.

    Acts 1:21-22. And when it was day, he (Jesus) called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

    Not only were the original twelve apostles hand-picked by Jesus, Paul was as well.

    And as he [Paul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

    Conclusion There are no apostles today because they served as a foundation for the early church. There are no apostles today because they had to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead and bear witness to the resurrection of Christ. Paul says that he was the last person to see Jesus. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle.

    There are no prophets or apostles today. Apostles had to be hand-picked by Jesus and He hasn't been around for a while to do so. The Bible warns us not to be deceived by false apostles. Since there are no true apostles or prophets today. Anyone who claims to be an apostle or prophet is a false one.

  13. #28
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    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    I don't know anybody who upholds the qualifications of a prophet or apostle anymore. There's no longer any use for them because they were necessary for the establishment of the early church. An apostle must have either seen Jesus or been hand picked by Jesus.

    Paul said, "Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" 1 Cor. 9:1 An apostle had to be a witness of the resurrection of Christ. When the 11 apostles met to discuss who would succeed Judas, the qualification was that he had to accompany them through the earthly life of Jesus and be a witness to the resurrection.

    OR
    Jesus had to hand-picked them himself. There were more than 12 apostles, probably closer to 20.

    Acts 1:21-22. And when it was day, he (Jesus) called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

    Not only were the original twelve apostles hand-picked by Jesus, Paul was as well.

    And as he [Paul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

    Conclusion There are no apostles today because they served as a foundation for the early church. There are no apostles today because they had to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead and bear witness to the resurrection of Christ. Paul says that he was the last person to see Jesus. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle.

    There are no prophets or apostles today. Apostles had to be hand-picked by Jesus and He hasn't been around for a while to do so. The Bible warns us not to be deceived by false apostles. Since there are no true apostles or prophets today. Anyone who claims to be an apostle or prophet is a false one.
    It's funny how Ephesians chapter 4 says that AFTER Jesus ascended on high He gave gifts unto men... some apostles, some prophets, etc.

  14. #29

    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    It's funny how Ephesians chapter 4 says that AFTER Jesus ascended on high He gave gifts unto men... some apostles, some prophets, etc.
    Apostles and prophets were for the emerging church and once it was established they pretty much became obsolete. They were office holders in the early church. Today we have disciples and are able to prophesy.

    The are no more apostles or prophets. When most people think of prophets they associate them with the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament, Jesus, his apostles, and John the Revelator of the New Testament. People view prophets with predicting the future because that's mostly what we read in the bible. In the Old Testament they 'spoke forth' God's will for Israel and His people. In the NT they spoke forth God's will for the early church.

    The Didache (Di-dah-kee) is the authority on the office of the NT prophets. In the NT church, prophets went from church to church 'telling forth' God's Will for the establishment of it. They were 'wandering prophets' as they really had no place to live. They were only meant to stay for no more than a few days, had no family, had no place to live, and were not allowed to receive any money. The position was often abused as they often extended their stay and accepted money and lived large at the expense of the congregation.

    The NT prophets became 'obsolete' in the sense that after the church was established and the foundation was laid they were no longer necessary. Today we are disciples, have deacons, and are able to prophesy, but that in no way makes us prophets or apostles.

    Anybody who say's they're a prophet today is a false one.

  15. #30
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    Re: Are we interpreting the Sermon on the Mount incorrectly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    Apostles and prophets were for the emerging church and once it was established they pretty much became obsolete. They were office holders in the early church. Today we have disciples and are able to prophesy.

    The are no more apostles or prophets. When most people think of prophets they associate them with the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament, Jesus, his apostles, and John the Revelator of the New Testament. People view prophets with predicting the future because that's mostly what we read in the bible. In the Old Testament they 'spoke forth' God's will for Israel and His people. In the NT they spoke forth God's will for the early church.

    The Didache (Di-dah-kee) is the authority on the office of the NT prophets. In the NT church, prophets went from church to church 'telling forth' God's Will for the establishment of it. They were 'wandering prophets' as they really had no place to live. They were only meant to stay for no more than a few days, had no family, had no place to live, and were not allowed to receive any money. The position was often abused as they often extended their stay and accepted money and lived large at the expense of the congregation.

    The NT prophets became 'obsolete' in the sense that after the church was established and the foundation was laid they were no longer necessary. Today we are disciples, have deacons, and are able to prophesy, but that in no way makes us prophets or apostles.

    Anybody who say's they're a prophet today is a false one.
    You failed to address the text. And unfortunately you have no scriptural basis for your cessation doctrine.

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