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Thread: Hart van die Evangelie Sinopsis van laaste hoofstukke van die vier Evangelies

  1. #31
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    Re: Hart van die Evangelie Sinopsis van laaste hoofstukke van die vier Evangelies

    Het u al enige suksesvolle vertaling van Lukas 24:21 teengekom? Dit wil sÍ ’n vertaling wat verantwoord vir die Akkusatief ‘tehn hehmeran sehmeron’ sowel as die Indikatief ‘agei’?

    Hoe kan dit reggekry word?

    Alleen—sou ek sÍ—met die regte onderwerp vir ‘agei’!

    Wat sou hierdie onderwerp dan nou wees? ‘tauta egeneto’ (v.21) of ‘pantohn tohn sumbebehkotohn toutohn’ (v.14) of ‘ta genomena en tais hehmerais tautais’ (v.18) of ‘ta peri Iehsou’ (v19b) --- “WATTER DINGE?” - ‘poia?’ (v.19a) van Jesus se kruisiging en dood, en van die vroue se vertelling daarvan aan die dissipels die Sondagoggend!

    Ek loof en dank die Here dat hierdie feite vir my ontbloot was. Dit het omtrent 'n leeftyd se harde werk en yskoue hoon, spot, veragting, WEERSTAND EN VERWERPING gekos om dit reg te gekry het! Ek is daarom innig dankbaar dat ek hierdie werk van my en daarmee my hele lewe se werk, met diť nuwe ontdekking vir my, kan afsluit.

    Ons het gehoop dat Hy die Een is

    Lukas 24:1, 13-29
    1 Op die Eerste Dag van die week...
    1 τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων...
    1 upon the First day of the week...

    29b teen westelumier en die dag reeds ver gedaal…
    29b ὅτι πρὸς ἑσπέραν ἐστὶν καὶ κέκλικεν ἤδη ἡ ἡμέρα…
    29b toward evening the day far spent…

    13 was daar twee van hulle (dissipels) op daardie dag
    13 καὶ ἰδοὺ δύο ἐξ αὐτῶν ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ
    13 And, behold, two of them … that same day

    op reis na ’n dorp omtrent twaalf kilometer ver
    ἦσαν πορευόμενοι εἰς κώμην ἀπέχουσαν σταδίους ἑξήκοντα
    went to a village … which was … about threescore furlongs

    vanaf Jerusalem, met die naam Emmaus.
    ἀπὸ Ἱερουσαλήμ, ᾗ ὄνομα Ἐμμαοῦς.
    from Jerusalem … called Emmaus.

    14 Terwyl hulle praat met mekaar oor al die dinge wat gebeur het,
    14 καὶ αὐτοὶ ὡμίλουν πρὸς ἀλλήλους περὶ πάντων τῶν συμβεβηκότων τούτων,
    14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened

    15 gebeur dit in die praat en hulle geredeneer dat
    15 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ ὁμιλεῖν αὐτοὺς καὶ συνζητεῖν
    15 And it came to pass that while they communed together and reasoned,

    Jesus self by hulle aansluit, en verder gaan saam met hulle.
    καὶ αὐτὸς Ἰησοῦς ἐγγίσας συνεπορεύετο αὐτοῖς∑
    Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

    16 Maar hulle oŽ was weerhou om Hom nie te herken nie.
    16 οἱ δὲ ὀφθαλμοὶ αὐτῶν ἐκρατοῦντο τοῦ μὴ ἐπιγνῶναι αὐτόν.
    16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.


    17 En sÍ Jesus vir hulle: Waaroor die woorde en geredekawel
    17 εἶπεν δὲ πρὸς αὐτούς Τίνες οἱ λόγοι οὗτοι οὓς ἀντιβάλλετε
    17And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have

    onder mekaar terwyl julle loop, dat julle gaan staan, verward?
    πρὸς ἀλλήλους περιπατοῦντες καὶ ἐστάθησαν σκυθρωποί;
    one to another as ye walk, and are sad?

    18 Antwoord die een met die naam Kleopas, en sÍ vir Hom,
    18 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ εἷς ὀνόματι Κλεοπᾶς εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν
    18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him,

    Kan slegs u ’n vreemdeling in Jerusalem wees en nie weet
    Σὺ μόνος παροικεῖς Ἱερουσαλὴμ καὶ οὐκ ἔγνως
    Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known

    wat gebeur het daarin in hierdie dae nie?
    τὰ γενόμενα ἐν αὐτῇ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ταύταις;
    the things which are come to pass there in these days?

    19 Jesus sÍ vir Kleopas: Watter dinge? Hulle antwoord Hom,
    19 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ποῖα; οἱ δὲ εἶπαν αὐτῷ
    19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him,

    Diť dinge oor Jesus die Nasarener wat gekom het, ’n man en
    Τὰ περὶ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ Ναζαρηνοῦ, ὃς ἐγένετο ἀνὴρ
    Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a

    profeet kragtig in werk en woord voor God en die hele volk,
    προφήτης δυνατὸς ἐν ἔργῳ καὶ λόγῳ ἐναντίον τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ παντὸς τοῦ λαοῦ,
    prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,

    20 en hoe ons hoŽpriesters en heersers Hom oorgelewer het
    20 ὅπως τε παρέδωκαν αὐτὸν οἱ ἀρχιερεῖς καὶ οἱ ἄρχοντες ἡμῶν
    20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be

    om tot die dood veroordeel te word en Hom gekruisig het?
    εἰς κρίμα θανάτου καὶ ἐσταύρωσαν αὐτόν;
    condemned to death, and have crucified him?

    21 En ons het gehoop dat HY die Een is om Israel spoedig te verlos het!
    21 ἡμεῖς δὲ ἠλπίζομεν ὅτι αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ μέλλων λυτροῦσθαι τὸν Ἰσραήλ∑
    21 We trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel:

    Trouens, al diť dinge saam 21 eindig hierdie die derde dag
    ἀλλά γε καὶ, σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις 21 τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει
    and beside all this 21 today is the third day

    (vandag) nŠ hierdie dinge wat gebeur het…
    (σήμερον) ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο∑
    since these things were done…

    (…en eindig daarmee saam ons hoop dat HY die Een was.)

    22 Want boonop het party vroue uit ons geledere ons ontstel,
    22 ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκές τινες ἐξ ἡμῶν ἐξέστησαν ἡμᾶς
    22 Certain women also of our company made us astonished,

    wat, nadat hulle diep-oggend by die graf was
    γενόμεναι ὀρθρι(ν)αὶ ἐπὶ τὸ μνημεῖον
    which were early at the sepulchre.

    en nie sy liggaam gekry het nie, 23 gekom en vertel het
    καὶ μὴ εὑροῦσαι τὸ σῶμα αὐτοῦ, 23 ἦλθον λέγουσαι
    and when they found not his body, 23 they came, saying

    van engele wat hulle gesien het wat sÍ Hy lewe,
    καὶ ὀπτασίαν ἀγγέλων ἑωρακέναι οἳ λέγουσιν αὐτὸν ζῆν,
    that they had seen a vision of angels which said that he was alive.

    24 en party van diť saam met ons gegaan het na die graf
    24 καὶ ἀπῆλθόν τινες τῶν σὺν ἡμῖν ἐπὶ τὸ μνημεῖον
    24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre

    en dinge gevind het soos die vroue inderdaad vertel het—
    καὶ εὗρον οὕτω(ς) καθὼς καὶ αἱ γυναῖκες εἶπον∑
    and found it even so as the women had said:

    maar Hům, niť gesien het nie.
    αὐτὸν δὲ οὐκ εἶδον.
    But him they saw not.
    Last edited by Gerhard Ebersoehn; Jul 7th 2017 at 04:59 PM.

  2. #32
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    Re: Hart van die Evangelie Sinopsis van laaste hoofstukke van die vier Evangelies

    Nou wil ek my nek uitsteek, en kyk of iemand my kop gaan laat waaiÖ

    Kyk bietjie na HebreŽrs 8:13!
    ďAs hy sÍ, ín nuwe bediening, het hy die eerste bediening OUD GEMAAKĒ Ė Ďpalai-oumenoní van Ďpalaio-ohí van Ďpalaií en Ďagohí Ė ďgeŽindigĒ, dan nie!? Verseker ja!
    Nou, net so in Lukas 24:21, "eindig"!

    Wat anders? Ek sal bitter graag wou weet, wat anders?!

  3. #33
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    Re: Hart van die Evangelie Sinopsis van laaste hoofstukke van die vier Evangelies

    Hier is ’n onlangse debat daaroor …

    Brew
    The Greek word that the translators translated as “is” does not mean “is.” This Greek word (G71) is used many times in the NT and the ONLY time it is translated “is” just happens to be here in Luke 24:21. Does not that raise a flag for you?

    GE
    No, It is idiomatic in just about all tongues to say 'Today' and
    to mean, 'Today is'. But yes, 'agei' does mean something which was not explicitly translated, that meaning being something so intrinsic it needs not be translated explicitly. Luke not far away, expressed the meaning at that STAGE IN the day, “the day is toward evening and far spent” v.29.
    But, contrary you, note the Present, 'agei', not, <<the third day was over>>; not even <<the third day has passed>>.
    “Because [hoti] pros [before] late afternoon [hesperan] is
    [estin] kai [and] is declined [kekliken] day [hehmera]”. 'Agei' is Continuous Present; no Perfect.
    What do you do with “since” if “today”, <<is past>>? Easy. You throw it away. Ja. What you did with it, threw it away.

    Frazier
    It Pentecost was counted from the 16th. This is a documented fact. It's history. It's how it was done. The “Sabbath” in that passage was interpreted and determined by the priests in charge to be the first holy convocation of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 15th. Ergo, the 16th fell in this case on a Saturday.

    GE
    Good! <Saturday> <<the 16th>> was the first of “fifty days counted”, right!

    Brew
    Think along these lines. If I would tell you, “Today, Wednesday, leads (G71) Tuesday away,” would you think I was saying, “Today, Wednesday, IS (G71) Tuesday?” No, but the PLAIN Greek is saying that “the third day” was being led away (to go or depart), not that “today IS the third day.” It's not rocket science, it's just plain Greek.

    GE
    <<the PLAIN Greek is saying that “the third day” was being led away (to go or depart),>>
    The Greek is not <saying>!
    The Greek is not Past Tense, <<“the third day” was>>.
    The Greek is not Passive Voice, <<“the third day” was being>> whatever.
    The Greek is not <<lead away>>; the Greek, 'agei', is, “is”.
    The Greek is not <<that “today IS the third day.”>>
    The Greek is that “today is the third day SINCE...”!

    Brew
    Strong's Dictionary for the Greek word “agei” or “ago”)
    Please show me a verse where ago or agei is translated “is,” besides Luke 24:21? And that word that is translated “since” is G575, and it means “away,” or “away from.” So, “today LEADS (G71) the third day AWAY FROM (G575), and that is about as plain as Greek as it can get.

    GE
    Young's Analytical Concordance gives Luke 24:21 for the only occurrence. Granted.
    Marshall also has “this is the third day leading since these things happened”. But that's an of no value pleonasm.
    Luke expresses then idea of “away from” with ‘apo’-‘since’.
    'Agoh', 'to be', 'to be old / get old', 'to age'-- from the very
    word 'agoh' - 'agei' - the English got “ageing”!
    'Agei' only intensifies what already is <<plain Greek>>.
    In context, 'agei' is the very day “today...the LATE / AGED First Day of the week ... third day since / away from these things which [aph' hou tauta] happened [egeneto].
    “We trusted that it had been He who before long would have redeemed Israel, but alas, with all these things (going on today), today, third day since those things (20how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him...) happened, running out, yea, some women (only further) upset us...
    Note, no Article, “today, third day...”
    Compare the word “ages”, Ephesians 2:7; 3:5,21 Colossians
    1:26 [tas geneas tou aiohnos tohn aiohnohn] Cruden, “The whole continuance...” of, 'being' then!

    Lat
    Young's Literal translation of Luke 24:21 that “τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν” is in the accusative case and therefore not the subject of ἄγει.

    GE
    It bothered me too. Kinda hoped nobody would notice. Bad! Anyhow, looks like true scholars find this difficult. ATR must have a solution. will check up. But at the end of the day as they say, the verse is perfectly understandable. Unless Kenneth McMillen comes with a REAL objection to just about all the good translators' rendering, who cares? Not me.
    Another certainty is, Greek OFTEN uses NO word to say something “is”. Why not in Luke 24:21? It's only trouble makers who search and search for something they don't know a thing about themselves. What for? To create new rules of grammar on a single incidence without precedence or etymological references? It's absurd. I shall hold to the KJV.

    Alt
    Which word are you translating “from” in Luk 24:21?

    GE
    Yes, this is that interesting and for me, difficult one. The case of the Accusative, 'sun pahsin toutois tritehn tautehn hehmeran agei aph' hou tauta egeneto'—“with all these things this third day since these things had happened, declines / gets old.” ... “day” Subject, will normally have “day” Nominative, 'hehmera'. But we see it is “day” Accusative, 'hehmeran'.
    I suggested one suppose the Verb 'to be', 'eisin' and say,
    'sun pahsin toutois tritehn tautehn hehmeran estin agei aph' hou tauta egeneto'--“with all these things (the turmoil that morning) this third day since those things (crucifixion etc.) had happened, is being brought (led) to close.” Accusative! Just suggesting!! (But nevertheless feeling quite happy with it… for the time being— “ageing”)

    Alt
    These 8 scholars represent about 240 years of Greek scholarship. A. T. Robertson Word Pictures in the NT
    Now the third day (tritēn tautēn hēmeran agei). A difficult idiom for the English. “One is keeping this a third day.” And
    he is still dead and we are still without hope.

    GE
    Sweet Sunday afternoon nap day-dreams of a good Christian…

    Alt
    Vincent Word Studies
    To-day is the third day
    (τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει σήμερον)

    GE
    Vincent doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

    Alt
    Vincent… The best texts omit to-day.

    GE
    The best texts? Tischendorf, Westcott & Hort, <<the best>>?
    What about all the other manuscripts ‘sehmeron’ is in?
    Omitting ‘sehmeron’ in any case makes no difference to the meaning of the passage as a whole. In fact whereas with ‘sehmeron’ Sunday third dayers could perhaps have felt happier, without ‘sehmeron’ they have less than nothing to celebrate about.

    Alt
    Vincent… The phrase forms an idiom which cannot be neatly rendered. Literally it is, “He (Christ) is passing (ἄγει) this day as the third.” Rev., Literally it is, “He (Christ) is passing (ἄγει) this day as the third.” Rev., It is now the third day since, etc.

    GE
    Trying to imitate Robertson. To what lengths will Sunday worship go! It’s unbelievable! Even in their nightmares they stand in unison against the Sabbath of the Lord Jesus’ Resurrection Day.

    Alt
    Expositor's Greek Testament —ἄγει: probably to be taken impersonally = agitur, one lives this third day since. So Grotius and many others. Other suggestions are that χρόνος or ὁ Ἰησοῦς is to be understood (cf. Acts 19:38).
    Jamieson, Faussett, Brown
    besides all this—not only did His death seem to give the fatal blow to their hopes, but He had been two days dead already, and this was the third.

    GE
    Tried to let duplicity serve their Sunday resurrection propaganda, but failed, as could be expected.

    Alt
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    And besides all this, today is the third day, since these things were done; which is either mentioned, as an aggravation of the ignorance of the stranger, that these things should be done so lately, as within three days,

    GE
    … if there’s no one to say contrariwise, why not blast it out
    as an aggravation of ignorance of the scholar?

    Alt
    Geneva Study Bible
    But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

    GE
    When Bibles were still Bibles…

    Alt
    Barnes' Notes on the Bible
    Today is the third day ... - Jesus had foretold them that he would rise on the third day.

    GE
    … to think this man Barnes wrote notes on the Bible.

    Alt
    Barnes'… This they did not understand; but it is not improbable that they looked to this day expecting something wonderful, and that the visit to the sepulchre had called it to their recollection, and they were more and more amazed when they put all these things together. As if they had said, “The third day is come, and we have not seen him. Yet we begin to remember his promise - the angels have informed us that he is alive - but we do not know how to put these things together, or what to make of them.”

    GE
    And no Sunday worshippers’ company yet were able to.

    Alt
    Pulpit Commentary… No doubt they dwelt a short space on the expression, “third day,” telling the Stranger how their dead Master, when alive, had bade his friends watch for the third day from his death. The third day, he had told them, would be the day of his triumphant return to them; and, strangely enough, on the early morning of this third day, something did happen which had stirred, excited, and perplexed them. Certain women of their company, who had been early to the grave of the Master, meaning to embalm the corpse, found the sepulchre empty, and they came back reporting how they had seen a vision of angels there, who told them their Master lived.

    GE
    The after midnight “deepest of morning” visit of the several women at the grave Luke 24:1,2 // 22,23. Jesus long since had resurrected; in fact at least 9 hours before, “Sabbath mid-afternoon” Matthew 28:1.

    Alt
    Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek [BAG] Lexicon of the NT represents more than 100 years of Greek scholarship.
    ἄγωfut. a[xw ; 2 aor. h[gagon ; impf. pass. hjgovmhn ; 1 aor. pass. h[cqhn ; 1 fut. pass. ajcqhvsomai ; see the pres. act. imper. a[ge as a separate entry ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX ;
    En. 103, 15; Ep. Arist. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
    1. lead — a. lit. lead, bring w. acc. th;n o[non kai; to;n pw`lon Mt 21:7 ; gunai`ka J 8:3 ; pai`da Ac 20:12 . W. acc. and indication of the goal pro;” aujtovn Lk 4:40 ; 18:40 ; cf. 19:3 5; J 9:13 ; Ac 9:27 ; 23:18 . pro;” to; sumyevlion Hv 3, 1, 7. eij” th;n e[rhmon B 7:8. ejpi; sfaghvn to be slaughtered Ac 8:32 ; 1 Cl 16:7; B 5:2 (all three Is 53:7 ). e[xw J 19:4 , 13 ; w|de Lk 19:27 . W. dat. of pers. (1 Macc 7:2 ) ajgavgetev moi bring it to me Mt 21:2 . tina; suvn tini ( cf. PGM 1, 179) 1 Th 4:14 . Fig. , of Jesus as shepherd J 10:16 ;
    oJ qeo;” h[gagen tw`/ jIsrah;l swth`ra jIhsou`n God brought Jesus to Israel as savior Ac
    b. bring or take along ( Jos. , Ant. 10, 179) eij” jAntiovceian Ac 11:26 . e{w” jAqhnw`n 17:1 5. ejpi; to;n [Areion pavgon vs. 1 9; a[gonte” par∆ w|/ xenisqw`men Mnavswni (= pro;” Mnavswna) i{na par∆ aujtw`/ xenisqw`men 21:16 ( cf. on this xenivzw and Bl-D. ß294, 5 app. ; Rob. 719). a[ge meta; seautou` bring ( him ) along 2 Ti 4:11 ( PPetr. II 32[2a], 13 a[gwn meq∆ auJtou`).
    c. fig. lead ( X. , Mem. 1, 6, 14; Demosth. 25, 76 eij” e[leon ; 18, 316 eij” ajcaristivan ; Jos. , Ant. 2, 174; Pr 18:6 ) tina; eij” metavnoian Ro 2:4 ( Polyb. 5, 16, 2 eij” metavnoian a[xein t. basileva ; Ep. Arist. 188; Jos. , Ant. 4, 144). eij” dovxan Hb 2:10 . Of jealousy a[. eij” qavnaton 1 Cl 9:1.
    2. legal t.t. lead away, take into custody, arrest w. acc. Mk 13:11 ; Lk 22:54 ; J 7:45 ; Ac 5:26 . o{pw” dedemevnou” ajgavgh/ eij” jIerousalhvm 9: 2; cf. 22: 5. Of arraignment and trial w. ejpiv and acc. ( BGU 22, 34 ff ; PTebt. 331, 16 f ) ejpi; hJgemovna” Mt 10:18 . ejpi; to; bh`ma Ac 18:12 . ejp∆ ejxousivan Hs 9, 28, 4. eij” to; sunevdrion Ac 6:12 . Abs. 25:6, 17, 23. Of the transport of a prisoner 23:31; J 18:28 . eij” th;n parembolhvn take away to the barracks Ac 21:34 ; 23:10 . Of leading away to execution ( cf. Diod. S. 13, 102, 1; Appian , Bell. Civ. 5, 9 ß36; Lucian , Syr. Dea 25; 2 Macc 6:29 ; 7:18 ) Lk 23:32 .
    3. fig ., of the working of the Spirit on man lead, guide, pass.
    be led. allow oneself to be led pneuvmati qeou` a[gesqai Ro
    8:14 ; cf. Gal 5:18 ; Lk 4:1 , 9 . gunaikavria ajgovmena ejpiqumivai” poikivlai” 2 Ti 3:6 ( Aristot. , Nic. Eth. 7, 3, 10 p. 1147a, 34 hJ ejpiqumiva a[gei. Cf. Eur ., Med. 310 se qumo;” h\gen ; Pla. , Prot. 355 A uJpo; t. hJdonw`n ajgovmeno” ; Demosth. 18, 9 toi`” e[xwqen lovgoi” hjgmevno” ; Parthenius 29, 2 a[gein eij” ejpiqumivan =entice to desire). 1 Cor 12:2 is difficult: o{ti pro;” ta; ei[dwla ta; a[fwna wJ” a]n h[gesqe ajpagovmenoi may be transl. how you were attracted, carried away again and again to dumb idols, where a[n denotes repetition, and wJ” takes up the preceding o{ti ; for another expl. , presupposing the rdg. wJ” ajnhvgesqe, s. J. Weiss ad loc. ; s. also ICC ad loc. ( Psellus p. 96, 33 offers a choice between a]n ajgavgoi and ajnagavgoi ; Herodas 6, 73 a]n euJrhvsei” RHerzog or ajneurhvsei” ADKnox; Ramsay, Phrygia I 2 p. 390 no. 248 o}” a]n ojruvxei or o}” ajnoruvxei).
    4. of time spend ( Eur. , Hdt. +; Aberciusinschr. 18; LXX ) aj. th;n hJmevran th;n ojgdovhn eij” eujfrosuvnhn celebrate the eighth day as a festival of joy B 15:9 ( cf. Dit., Or. 90, 47 [196 BC ] a[gein ta;” hJmevra” tauvta” eJortav” ; PGoodspeed 3, 18 [III BC ] hJmevran kalh;n h[gagon).
    Perh. impers. trivthn tauvthn hJmevran a[gei this is the third
    day Lk 24:21 ; but, since this expr. cannot be found elsewhere, it is prob. better to supply jIhsou`” as subj. ( Bl-D. ß129 app. ) lit. Jesus is spending the third day ( cf. Galen XIII 581 KŁhn tetavrthn hJmevran a[gwn ajnwvduno” h\n, XI 65 K. povshn a[gei th;n ajpo; tou` nosei`n hJmevran oJ a[nqrwpo”). Of festivals celebrate, observe ( Hdt. +; Aesop , Fab. 389 P. genevqlion a[gein ; Jos. , Ant. 11, 77=IEsdr 4:50) genevsia Mt 14:6 v.l .; to; savbbaton PK 2 p. 14, 28; neomhnivan ibid. 1. 29. Of meetings (like Lat. ? ? ? ? ? ) sumbouvlion a[gein hold a meeting IPol 7:2. Pass. ajgorai`oi a[gontai ( s. ajgorai`o” 2) Ac 19:38 .
    5. intr. go ( X. +) a[gwmen let us go (so Vi. Aesopi Ic. 77; loanw. in rabb. ) Mt 26:46 ; Mk 14:42 ; J 11:16 . W. the goal given ( Ael. Aristid. 51, 28 K.=27 p. 541 D.: eij” to; iJerovn ; Epict. 3, 22, 55 a[gwmen ejpi; t. ajnquvpaton) eij” ta;” kwmopovlei” Mk 1:38 . eij” th;n jIoudaivan J 11:7 . eij” to; o[ro” AP 4. eij” ajgrovn Hs 6, 1, 5; pro;” aujtovn J 11:15 . pro;” to;n puvrgon Hs 9, 5, 6. W. the point of departure given ejnteu`qen J 14:31 .—JAFitzmyer, The Use of Agein and Pherein in the Synoptics, FWGingrich- Festschr. , ed. EHBarth and RECocroft, ’72, 147-60. M-M. B. 711; 713.
    BAG Lexicon of NT Greek online

    Brew
    Here is an example of a biased translation, ALONG with their “literal” translation:
    Berean Study Bible
    But we were hoping He was the One who would redeem Israel. And besides all this, it is the third day since these things took place.
    Berean Literal Bible
    But we were hoping it is He who is about to redeem Israel. But indeed also with all these things, this brings the third day away from which these things came to pass.
    If you notice, the Berean LITERAL Bible states, “this brings the third day away from,” is a VERY close rendering to “it (today) leads the third day away from.” Do you see the LITERAL? This is what the Greek is LITERALLY saying, why not believe it? The third day was being LED AWAY FROM when those things were done, not that the third day IS that day.

    GE
    Well, whatever it is you wanted to explain, I cannot see any difference it makes to the plain old KJV, “Today ... the First Day-of-the-week ... is the third day since these things were done.” It was not “the third day according to the Scriptures He ROSE”! (1Corinthians 15:3,4)

    Brew
    I feel you probably have not followed very carefully. Luke 24:21 is a very difficult verse, when you look at the Greek. Translators have difficulty in understanding this verse and that is why they do have different “suggestions” in how to translate it.
    At issue with this verse is the Greek word “apo” (G71) which means “to lead,” and the translators (in the KJV) translated this Greek word to mean “is.” There is a big difference in viewing this verse from, “Today LEADS the third day AWAY,” versus “Today IS the third day.” The LITERAL Greek is LEADS, not IS, and this is what gives them their difficulty.

    GE
    First finish your preparatory Greek class. And let mammie put a soft towel in your bag for little ears still wet behind. First time in my life I have to read <<the Greek word “apo” (G71) which means “to lead,” and the translators (in the KJV) translated this Greek word to mean “is.”>>

    Brew
    I'm sorry, I should have typed “ago,” or “agei.” But do you realize that IF the translation should have said, “Today IS” then the Greek word “esti (n)” G1510 should have been used. Do you not agree?

    GE
    What is written, is written, even if only once. But as I said before, What difference does it make? None! In fact, 'agei' gives the TIME of day corresponding with the time of day given in v.29, the day (Sunday) that was “the third day since they...crucified Jesus, was 'running out'.”

    Lat
    Here is one version (mGNT) of the Greek of Luke 24:21 ἡμεῖς δὲ ἠλπίζομεν ὅτι αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ μέλλων λυτροῦσθαι τὸν Ἰσραήλ ἀλλά γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο
    And here is another version (TR) of the Greek of Luke 24:21 ἡμεῖς δὲ ἠλπίζομεν ὅτι αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ μέλλων λυτροῦσθαι τὸν Ἰσραήλ ἀλλά γε σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει σήμερον, ἀφ᾽ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο
    One significant difference between the two versions is the presence of the adverb, σήμερον, in the TR version. σήμερον can variously be translated as to-day, this day, or now. Please notice if you will that I have color coded “ἐστιν” above to show that the verb “is” appears in this verse, and to clearly show that ἐστιν is not ἄγει, and that ἄγει is not ἐστιν . I shall not attempt to translate the first half of this verse, but I will highlight the last half of the verse and color code “τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν” so that all might see that these three Greek words are in the accusative singular which makes them the object of the verb, ἄγει, which is the third person singular present indicative of ἄγω. ἄγει is active voice. It is not passive. Here are the Strong's listed definitions of ἄγω G71: ἄγω agō ag'-o A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.
    Total KJV occurrences: 71
    Please allow me to translate the TR version above:
    “to-day, it passes this third day from which happened these things”, or I might say, “this day it leads this third day away from which happened these things.”
    Remove “to-day” and “this day” from the above and you have translated the mGNT version of Luke 24:21. Please notice that I made no attempt to translate ἄγει above as “is”, and please notice that I did not confuse the direct object of ἄγει and make the direct object ἄγει the subject as your posting of Young's Literal Translation apparently does below:
    “Young's Literal Translation.
    YLT Lk 24:21 and we were hoping that he it is who is about to redeem Israel, and also with all these things, this third day is passing to-day, since these things happened.”
    Why post confusion? The Greek of Luke 24:21 is rather clear when it is approached with an open mind not filled with preconceived religious ideas that cannot be proved.

    GE
    I find nothing <clear> in your <approach>. To me it is just <confusion>.
    'Estin' in this verse has nothing to do with the day ['hehmeran'] or with 'this day' ['sehmeron']. 'Estin' is here the Verb the Pronoun “He” for Jesus, is the Subject of.
    And for first and most important reason of its unnecessary addition, 'sehmeron' has been omitted by other collections; its inclusion serves no purpose at all; with or without 'sehmeron' the meaning of the passage stays the same.

    To <<translate the TR version above: “to-day, it passes this third day from which happened these things”>> makes no sense in that it implies three days ahead, and not past “since” the day “they crucified him”. Goodness, the 'old' scholars were real scholars; not modern day computer monkeys.

    Alt
    Pulpit Commentary
    But yet terrible and despairing as was the story of Cleopas and his friend, their tone was not quite hopeless; for they went on, “And now we have come to the third day since they crucified him.” No doubt they dwelt a short space on the expression, “third day,” …

    GE
    …ridiculous! In any case, there’s no <<expression, “third day,”>> in Luke 24:21. It is plain telling Jesus WHAT the disciples “hoped / trusted He would become” for them, but “today … on the First Day … the third day since … they delivered Him over to be condemned and crucified Him”, it for them, instead, was vanishing. Remember Robertson, “And He is still dead and we are still without hope”?
    This is where ‘agei’ applies in raw historic reality of the current day, ‘sehmeron’, that “THAT what we TRUSTED that it had been HE, which should have REDEEMED Israel … INSTEAD INDEED this third day since these things were done (to Him) IS FADING AWAY!” The disciples’ TRUST IN THEIR REDEMPTION THROUGH JESUS, on this First Day of the week, “reached lowest point” - ‘agei’ in the valley of their despair. 4.30 p.m. 03 06 2017. Glory to God in the highest!

  4. #34
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    Re: Hart van die Evangelie Sinopsis van laaste hoofstukke van die vier Evangelies

    ... en net hierso, toe gooi hulle my uit ...

  5. #35
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    Re: Hart van die Evangelie Sinopsis van laaste hoofstukke van die vier Evangelies

    Ek dink jou draad sal beter in die forum pas en die voorwoord sal ek byvoeg in jou eerste plasing....
    The Rapture

    My dearest friends, Iím so sorryÖ so sorry
    but I must confess, donít worry
    the rapture is not before the Great Tribulation
    itís before Godís wrath!!!

    Because His wrath is not meant for you
    itís for all the people in the zoo
    think about it and refreshÖ
    you will see thereís no way out of here, in the flesh

    If you really believe, you will see
    the rapture is for you and me
    when we decide to leave from here
    that very day, oh! God adhereÖ



  6. #36
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    Re: Hart van die Evangelie Sinopsis van laaste hoofstukke van die vier Evangelies

    Re: Alt hierbo,
    <<[BAG] Lexicon of the NT … PGoodspeed 3, 18 [III BC ] hJmevran kalh;n h[gagon).
    Perh. impers. trivthn tauvthn hJmevran a[gei this is the third day Lk 24:21 ; but, since this expr. cannot be found elsewhere, it is prob. better to supply jIhsou`” as subj. ( Bl-D. ß129 app. ) lit. Jesus is spending the third day ( cf. Galen XIII 581 KŁhn...
    >>

    Hoe kan die feit dat <<omdat hierdie uitdrukking nÍrens anders gevind kan word nie, dit waarskynlik beter is om ‘Jesus’ as onderwerp, toe te voeg>>?
    En waarvandaan haal Blass Debrunner dit dat ‘agei’, <lit.>—vir ‘literal’ of te wel <letterlik>??—, beteken: <<Jesus bring die derde dag deur>>?!

    Dis eenvoudig ongelooflik om sulke <geleerdheid> so sonder meer vir evangelie aanvaar te sien!

    Dis Kleopas wat vertel van “hierdie (Sondag) die derde dag vandat al die dinge wat gebeur het van hoe ons leiers Hom oorgelewer het om gekruisig en gedood te word”, en “… van vroue wat diepste oggend” al die dissipels “kom ontstel het met ALLES waarmee saam ons hoop dat dit Hy was … vandag, eindig!

    Maar ons, 21ste eeuse lesers moet verstaan soos 21ste eeuse lesers GELEER was OM te verstaan, en daarom is dit nie “DIT WAT GEBEUR HET met al hierdie dinge saam (wat) hierdie dag die derde dag vandat hierdie dinge gebeur het, EINDIG”, nie, maar dit is <<Jesus (wat) die derde dag deurbring>>, ja, <celebrate>!!

    ONGELOOFLIK!

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