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Thread: Can Salvation be lost?

  1. #16

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Are you seriously suggesting that those apostles who followed Jesus and Paul and later abandoned them were NOT initially saved?
    I am seriously suggesting that people do not take things out of context. That whole chapter is about false prophets and false teachers who are excoriated by Peter. It has no bearing on what you stated above.

    1
    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
    3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
    4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
    6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
    8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed hisrighteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds,
    9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
    10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
    11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
    12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
    13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
    14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
    15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
    16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
    17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
    18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
    19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
    20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
    22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


  2. #17
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I started this OP to challenge our views on the concept of salvation. opinions expressed so far, have been interesting. I will cite a couple of passages and if you will be kind enough to explain how they *fit* your belief that "eternal salvation" cannot be lost, I will appreciate it so much.

    1. 1 Tim 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
    1 Tim 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    What is the faith good conscience believers are enjoined to uphold? I would argue they are the precepts of Christ wherein lies our salvation. And what happens when a believer "puts this away" (turn their back on this)? Paul said, "they are made shipwreck". What is your understanding of *shipwreck* here?
    I think Christians can destroy their walk with God by turning away from obedience to Christ. It was the same thing under the Law when Hebrews decided not to obey the requirements of the Law. They then were defeated by their enemies and otherwise cursed.

    This is what "shipwreck" means. It doesn't decide someone's eternal fate. It only determines whether one's relationship with God is on good footing or not.

    As you know, when Israel repented of their failures under the Law they could be restored. Many, however, refused to participate in the restoration required under the Law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    2. Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

    When the righteous, the believer with salvation backslides into sin as do the wicked, his righteousness shall not be remembered anymore. In his sin shall die. Once again, please explain how the above lines up with your understanding that "eternal salvation cannot be lost"?
    Again, this can in the same way be applied to the Hebrews living under the Law. They could be the most obedient, most loving, most righteous imaginable. But if in the following year they fell in love with pagan women, and allowed them to entice them to worship other gods, tolerating their abominable practices, and began to engage in those pagan practices themselves, their prior righteousness would no longer keep them in God's good standing. None of their previous record of righteousness would prevent them from suffering the curses of disobedience under the Law.

    None of this has anything to do with our eternal fate, unless of course the decision to turn away from God's laws is simultaneously a turning away from God Himself. If you turn away from God Himself why would you ever turn back to Him again? If you *truly* do not like God there is nothing, honestly, to return to!

  3. #18
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Your explanation of how a man can be saved "in part" is confusing to me. For example, What part of the man is saved ? What happens to the part that isn't ? This doctrine is dividing man into spiritual pieces. Do you also believe in many Gospels ?
    OK. Let's go slowly. Start with the first statement of mine that you don't agree with, and we'll deal with it more comprehensively. But before we do that may I ask one question? Do you believe that "salvation" means going to heaven when you die? If so, I understand fully your reservations. Then, the problem lies not in what I have said, (because my statements were all documented with scripture), but with a foundation that cannot support the mounds of scripture that point to man being made of the earth, to be nourished by the earth for ruling the earth.
    Last edited by Walls; Aug 22nd 2017 at 08:00 AM. Reason: Added thought

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua1 View Post
    Take 2 Peter 2:20ff:

    (ESV)For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

    The first state was a lost state-- not saved, because they were defiled by the world. But the second state is even worse than the first, because they now know the way of righteousness and have turned away from it (verse 21).

    See, maybe people want to believe you can't be lost once you're saved so you can do what you want and believe that "Oh, I can never be lost! I can do whatever I want!"

    It's rather not an issue of opinion, but of sound doctrine. You shouldn't make it into a matter of opinion.
    Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never mentioned as being sheep.

    Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strong's #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strong's #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

    Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

    Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

    *Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

    Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I started this OP to challenge our views on the concept of salvation. opinions expressed so far, have been interesting. I will cite a couple of passages and if you will be kind enough to explain how they *fit* your belief that "eternal salvation" cannot be lost, I will appreciate it so much.

    1. 1 Tim 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
    1 Tim 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    What is the faith good conscience believers are enjoined to uphold? I would argue they are the precepts of Christ wherein lies our salvation. And what happens when a believer "puts this away" (turn their back on this)? Paul said, "they are made shipwreck". What is your understanding of *shipwreck* here?

    2. Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

    When the righteous, the believer with salvation backslides into sin as do the wicked, his righteousness shall not be remembered anymore. In his sin shall die. Once again, please explain how the above lines up with your understanding that "eternal salvation cannot be lost"?
    The passages you chose lack information about salvation.

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think Christians can destroy their walk with God by turning away from obedience to Christ. It was the same thing under the Law when Hebrews decided not to obey the requirements of the Law. They then were defeated by their enemies and otherwise cursed.

    This is what "shipwreck" means. It doesn't decide someone's eternal fate. It only determines whether one's relationship with God is on good footing or not.
    On the contrary, the shipwreck of faith is a clear indication that such a person is NOT destined for eternal life, having fallen away. Perseverance in the faith is a prerequisite to eternal life.

  7. #22
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Let's go slowly. Start with the first statement of mine that you don't agree with, and we'll deal with it more comprehensively. But before we do that may I ask one question? Do you believe that "salvation" means going to heaven when you die? If so, I understand fully your reservations. Then, the problem lies not in what I have said, (because my statements were all documented with scripture), but with a foundation that cannot support the mounds of scripture that point to man being made of the earth, to be nourished by the earth for ruling the earth.
    When someone repents and believes in the Lord Jesus, and are filled with the Holy Spirit, from what I read in scripture, we are as saved as we will ever be. Some say "being saved" then when we finally reach Glory " are saved ". Whatever the point is you're making concerning the sanctification process, when someone is saved ( reception of the Holy Spirit ) they are as saved as they will ever be ( i.e. "uttermost").

    My point is, if someone is genuinely saved, then they are saved. And, we can't get any MORE saved. Simple I know, but true.

  8. #23

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Hi all,

    Very interesting reading all the posts this far.

    Please indulge my ignorance as I'm here to learn.

    Does 2 Thessalonians 2 have any pertinence in this discussion?

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ST180 View Post
    Hi all,

    Very interesting reading all the posts this far.

    Please indulge my ignorance as I'm here to learn.

    Does 2 Thessalonians 2 have any pertinence in this discussion?
    I think so. Most often when discussion of this passage is centered on the end times, the focus falls on Paul's indication of an apostasy, understood by most folks as a "falling away" from the faith. But when the discussion turns to the subject of salvation, we need to turn our attention to verse 13.

    2Thessalonians 2:
    13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

    So while remains true that some believers will fall away from the faith, those whom God is saving will be sanctified by the Spirit.

  10. #25
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    When someone repents and believes in the Lord Jesus, and are filled with the Holy Spirit, from what I read in scripture, we are as saved as we will ever be. Some say "being saved" then when we finally reach Glory " are saved ". Whatever the point is you're making concerning the sanctification process, when someone is saved ( reception of the Holy Spirit ) they are as saved as they will ever be ( i.e. "uttermost").

    My point is, if someone is genuinely saved, then they are saved. And, we can't get any MORE saved. Simple I know, but true.
    OK. Here is the test.

    (1) In 1st Timothy 2:14-15 it reads;
    14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."


    In this scripture the woman;
    1. must be saved by works and not faith
    2. has a source of salvation that the man has not

    What is your understanding of this?

    (2) In Romans 8:23 it reads; "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

    In this scripture, if we are as saved as we ever will be, why do we
    • "wait"?
    • wait for "adoption" when in verse 15 of the same Chapter we "have" received the Spirit of Adoption (past tense)?

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ST180 View Post
    Hi all,

    Very interesting reading all the posts this far.

    Please indulge my ignorance as I'm here to learn.

    Does 2 Thessalonians 2 have any pertinence in this discussion?
    Distantly. The saints in Thessaloniki had two problems.
    1. Because Paul taught what our Lord Jesus taught about His coming, that is, it would sudden and unexpected, the Christians at Thessaloniki were very perturbed when some of their brethren died and the rapture had not occurred. Paul corrects this in the First Epistle and teaches that the dead faithful will in no way suffer a disadvantage because of death.
    2. Some saints were duped by false teachers that the Great Tribulation had started and they were not "gathered" to their Lord Jesus. Paul corrects this in the Second Epistle. He sets forth some conditions in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that must first be fulfilled before the Great Tribulation starts.

    Thus, the "salvation" of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is the salvation from the Great Tribulation and the clutches of the Beast. It is a big "salvation" but not what we discuss here in this thread.

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. Here is the test.

    (1) In 1st Timothy 2:14-15 it reads;
    14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."


    In this scripture the woman;
    1. must be saved by works and not faith
    2. has a source of salvation that the man has not
    Are you sure that is talking about salvation from sin? Or could it be her salvation concerning authority? Could it be that she will have authority in the home, through having children?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    The passages you chose lack information about salvation.
    On the contrary, they scream salvation.

    1. When a believer is made shipwreck on account of their backsliding from the true faith, they lose their salvation.
    2. A righteous man (one in Christ who has salvation) who backslide and reverts to those beggarly transgressions he was purchased from with the blood if he dies in that condition, he goes to hell (he's lost his salvation).

    The passages cannot be clear enough.

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    When God made man He made him for four reasons. They are;
    1. To be in the image and likeness of God so that whatever he did or said would reflect God
    2. To be the new ruler of this earth with its sea and sky after the previous ruler, Satan, failed and rebelled against the great King, Jehovah
    3. To be a "help meet" for the Man Jesus. "Help meet" means "a companion up to the standard of"
    4. To fence about, and bring to order, a place where a Holy God would not be defiled when He met with His creature, man

    In God's recovery of His plan with man, recovery to all four points is called "salvation to the uttermost" (Heb.7:25). The word uttermost, even without added information implies that a man can be saved IN PART. That is, he can be restored in one or more points above, and be called "saved", but if he misses one or more of them he can be called "saved" by not "saved to the uttermost."

    God's full salvation, in a very short summary, is;
    • Man's sin and sins must be judicially put away by a viable Substitute - Jesus the Man by the shedding of blood
    • The spirit of man must undergo an additional, and new, and heavenly, and spiritual birth via the Holy Spirit (Jn.3:3-6)
    • The soul of man, so corrupted by the desires of a fallen flesh, must undergo a transforming work by the Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.3:18; Rom.12:2)
    • The body of man must be resurrected by the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:23)
    • The man must become a co-king of the earth, sea and sky with Christ when He sets up His heavenly Kingdom on earth (Matt.19:23-26)

    The whole process is summarized in 1st Peter 1:2-9. There we have;
    verse 2 - the blood of Jesus
    verse 3 - we are "begotten" - through a rebirth via God (Jn.1:12)
    verse 3 - resurrection via Jesus Who has "become" the "life-giving Spirit" (1st Cor.15:45)
    verse 4 - for an inheritance - the earth (Rom.4:13)
    verse 5 - God's keeping power during the journey
    verse 6 - a journey with trials
    verse 7 - trials that purify and temper your soul
    verse 9 - "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

    And it is in the matter of the transformation, or "salvation" of the soul, that all the warnings to Christians go out. The rebirth is a matter of FAITH (Jn.1:12). The resurrection of the body is guaranteed (1st Cor.15:22) - ours with "celestial glory" (1st Cor.15:40-42). BUT WHAT OF THE TRANSFORMATION OF THE SOUL FROM A SELF-SERVING AND CORRUPT PART TO A GOD-SERVING AND GOD-REFLECTING PART?

    It is the transformation of the soul that needs the man's cooperation and effort with God's power, that can be missed. In Philippians 2:12-13, we have the TWO-PART EFFORT for the "salvation of the soul" - man's and God's. It reads;
    12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."


    It is this part of salvation that a Christian can miss. And it is this part of salvation that makes a Christian eligible and qualified to be a co-king with Christ in the Millennium. All the warning that go out to a Christian concern the "GAINING" or "LOSS" of the Kingdom of Heaven. That is, when Christ returns and judges us, He will either find us good and faithful (nothing to do with faith), or He will find us "workers of iniquity", "wicked" and "slothful". These last are all natural fruit of an un-transformed SOUL and disqualify a man or woman from being "saved to the uttermost". It was this "salvation" that our Lord Jesus alluded to in Matthew 19:23-26 - that of ENTERING THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN when it is set up on earth after Christ's return.

    • The rebirth CANNOT BE OVERTURNED
    • Our sonship to God CANNOT BE OVERTURNED
    • Our being partakers of the divine nature CANNOT BE OVERTURNED
    • We CANNOT go to the Lake of Fire
    • BUT WE CAN FORFEIT OUR INHERITANCE - THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN when it is set up on earth and Christ chooses His future kings. After the full salvation that God has bought at great price, and offered freely to the Christian, he/she can enjoy all that there is from God's side, BUT END UP A DISGRACE BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO "LOVE NOT THEIR SOUL-LIFE UNTO DEATH" (Rev.12:11 - lit. Gk.)!
    I have read and re-read your post several times and still cannot fully understand it. So please correct me where I got you wrong.

    1. Your theory of "saved, but not saved to the uttermost" or, otherwise, "saved in part" is unscriptural. To my understanding, you are either saved or not, there's no grey line or anything in between. So please clarify?

    2. The rebirth CANNOT BE OVERTURNED
    Our sonship to God CANNOT BE OVERTURNED
    Our being partakers of the divine nature CANNOT BE OVERTURNED
    We CANNOT go to the Lake of Fire


    By the above, I presume you are arguing that "salvation cannot be lost?" If this is a true representation of your belief, then kindly explain this statement which I consider, an oxymoron?

    BUT WE CAN FORFEIT OUR INHERITANCE - THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN when it is set up on earth and Christ chooses His future kings. After the full salvation that God has bought at great price, and offered freely to the Christian, he/she can enjoy all that there is from God's side, BUT END UP A DISGRACE BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO "LOVE NOT THEIR SOUL-LIFE UNTO DEATH" (Rev.12:11 - lit. Gk.)!

    How can our rebirth, Sonship, being partakers of the divine nature be sustained and yet, we FORFEIT OUR INHERITANCE? How can one who has forfeited his inheritance in Christ still "enjoy all there is from God's side" but yet again, end up "a disgrace?

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Excellent well thought out post. But wanted to throw something out there for your consideration. Remember the woman with the issue of blood? Everything she touched was made unclean. And anyone that touched the things she touched such as her clothing or bed covers became unclean.

    Yet, when she touched Jesus, He was not defiled nor made unclean. Rather, she was made clean!

    Grace to you

    Mark
    Following your analogy, are you saying that if the woman backslid along the way and didn't repent until she died, she would still make heaven because she touched Jesus?

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