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Thread: Can Salvation be lost?

  1. #31
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    On the contrary, the shipwreck of faith is a clear indication that such a person is NOT destined for eternal life, having fallen away. Perseverance in the faith is a prerequisite to eternal life.
    Certainly, making shipwreck of your faith *can* lead to damnation. My point is that under the Law Israel did make shipwreck of their faith, much as Samson did by following Delilah. However, neither Samson nor all Israel was damned, simply because they temporarily made shipwreck of their faith. Israel was always given an opportunity to return, following their rebellion, assuming they wanted to return.

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Distantly. The saints in Thessaloniki had two problems.
    1. Because Paul taught what our Lord Jesus taught about His coming, that is, it would sudden and unexpected, the Christians at Thessaloniki were very perturbed when some of their brethren died and the rapture had not occurred. Paul corrects this in the First Epistle and teaches that the dead faithful will in no way suffer a disadvantage because of death.
    2. Some saints were duped by false teachers that the Great Tribulation had started and they were not "gathered" to their Lord Jesus. Paul corrects this in the Second Epistle. He sets forth some conditions in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that must first be fulfilled before the Great Tribulation starts.

    Thus, the "salvation" of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is the salvation from the Great Tribulation and the clutches of the Beast. It is a big "salvation" but not what we discuss here in this thread.
    In no way does Paul state that the Thessalonians thought the "Great Tribulation had started." Rather, it was the day of Christ's Coming that they thought had taken place, together with the assembling of God's People.

  3. #33
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Are you sure that is talking about salvation from sin? Or could it be her salvation concerning authority? Could it be that she will have authority in the home, through having children?
    Correct. The "salvation" spoken of here is not salvation from sin, but I want Pbminimum to fathom that there are many salvations, and that the Bible is not just one Chapter. The full salvation, or "salvation to the uttermost" is a magnificent and sublime work done by our Lord Jesus and is so revealed by this maginificent Book, the Bible.

  4. #34
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Correct. The "salvation" spoken of here is not salvation from sin, but I want Pbminimum to fathom that there are many salvations, and that the Bible is not just one Chapter. The full salvation, or "salvation to the uttermost" is a magnificent and sublime work done by our Lord Jesus and is so revealed by this maginificent Book, the Bible.
    Many salvations from eternal condemnation ? No. If this is going the way of the "many Gospels" thread I'm bowing out now.

  5. #35
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    I am seriously suggesting that people do not take things out of context. That whole chapter is about false prophets and false teachers who are excoriated by Peter. It has no bearing on what you stated above.

    1
    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
    3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
    4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
    5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
    6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
    7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
    8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed hisrighteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds,
    9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
    10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
    11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
    12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
    13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
    14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
    15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
    16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
    17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
    18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
    19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
    20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
    22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    It is regretful to note you continue to miss the point.

    My argument all along is to show that salvation can be lost and this is applicable to the teacher/prophet/pastor or the congression or sheep they lead! Peter is NOT arguing that these false teachers were NEVER saved because initially, they were. That's what you're missing - some reprobates were previously believers. And please don't give me the inane remark that their earlier belief wasn't genuine.

    I will borrow from the passages you provided to prove my case.

    2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
    2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

    Having "forsaken the right way and gone astray" clearly denotes backsliding from God. Because one who never believed (UNSAVED), could not have known the RIGHT WAY! And you can't forsake what never knew. This is further confirmed by the comparison to Balaam; God's appointed prophet who became a rogue prophet.

    So for all your admonition that I took things out of context, evidently, you're the one who took your eyes off the context.

  6. #36
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    On the contrary, they scream salvation.

    1. When a believer is made shipwreck on account of their backsliding from the true faith, they lose their salvation.
    Do they? What if the person wasn't saved in the first place?

    The passages cannot be clear enough.
    Agreed. However, while they speak of a falling away, the passages say nothing with regard to a loss of salvation. A man can't lose what he never had. The fruit of perseverance is salvation.

  7. #37
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I have read and re-read your post several times and still cannot fully understand it. So please correct me where I got you wrong.

    1. Your theory of "saved, but not saved to the uttermost" or, otherwise, "saved in part" is unscriptural. To my understanding, you are either saved or not, there's no grey line or anything in between. So please clarify?

    2. The rebirth CANNOT BE OVERTURNED
    Our sonship to God CANNOT BE OVERTURNED
    Our being partakers of the divine nature CANNOT BE OVERTURNED
    We CANNOT go to the Lake of Fire


    By the above, I presume you are arguing that "salvation cannot be lost?" If this is a true representation of your belief, then kindly explain this statement which I consider, an oxymoron?

    BUT WE CAN FORFEIT OUR INHERITANCE - THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN when it is set up on earth and Christ chooses His future kings. After the full salvation that God has bought at great price, and offered freely to the Christian, he/she can enjoy all that there is from God's side, BUT END UP A DISGRACE BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO "LOVE NOT THEIR SOUL-LIFE UNTO DEATH" (Rev.12:11 - lit. Gk.)!

    How can our rebirth, Sonship, being partakers of the divine nature be sustained and yet, we FORFEIT OUR INHERITANCE? How can one who has forfeited his inheritance in Christ still "enjoy all there is from God's side" but yet again, end up "a disgrace?
    Let us take an example. Israel kill the Passover and are "SAVED" from the angel of death. They depart Egypt but are caught between the Red Sea and Pharaoh's vengeful army. The waters open, Israel passes through, and Pharaoh's army is destroyed. They are again "SAVED" (Ex.13:40) - but is it the same salvation? Then they went Mara and are "SAVED" by a Tree. And then manna is found in the cool of dawn and they are again "saved". Then they journey through the wilderness for 40 years and a great number stand on the banks of Jordan to cross into their INHERITANCE (Ex.15:17). But 600,000 men of war, including Moses, do not. In this short passage Israel are saved a number of times, but each time it was a different "salvation". Then, many did not get their inheritance, but this does not UNDO what else thy were saved from. They remained sons of Abraham. The promises were still valid for them. They survived the angel of death. They survived the Red Sea. They survived 40 years of a journey that would kill most normal men. And yet they fell short of their inheritance.

    1st Corinthians 10 and Hebrews 3 and 4 threaten the Christian with the same fate. They might have their sins removed, they might be born again, the might have divine life, they might be sons of God, but this has ONLY to do with the spirit of man. The soul is different. In 2nd Peter 1:4-11 we learn of receiving the divine life in verse 4, "... having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." But then verse 5 shows something that WE HAVE TO GET BY OUR OWN EFFORT. We have to ADD to our faith, BY DILIGENCE, to our characters, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly love and finally the love that characterizes God. Then verse 10 ADMONISHES US to DILIGENTLY to make our calling and election SURE! And verses 11 says that ONLY IF WE ADD ALL THOSE VIRTUES, AND DO ALL THIS, WE WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. It is this that stunned the disciples in Matthew 19:25!

    In Matthew 19:25's context it was a man who had wealth and who would HARDLY ENTER THE KINGDOM. This is not a matter of faith, and it is not even a matter of sin. It is that wealth is bad for the character. Riches are "deceitful" and prevent one entering the kingdom (Matt.13:22). They make you think that your character is better than it really is. But notice what language the disciples use; "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?" That is, ENTERING THE KINGDOM IS EQUAL TO BEING "SAVED"! The young man of Matthew 19 believed Who Jesus was. He had kept Moses' Law entirely. Jesus LOVED him. He had faith and works in accordance with God's Law. But these alone could not get him into the kingdom. He had to ADD poverty, and all that goes with it, to his character.

    I think it is clear from these scriptures, and many others, that a man must undergo a PROCESS of salvation. Otherwise we must discard the verse that says that our Lord can "save to the uttermost". It in itself IMPLIES a progression.

  8. #38
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
    2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

    Having "forsaken the right way and gone astray" clearly denotes backsliding from God. Because one who never believed (UNSAVED), could not have known the RIGHT WAY! And you can't forsake what never knew. This is further confirmed by the comparison to Balaam; God's appointed prophet who became a rogue prophet.
    Could it not be said that everyone that goes to hell has forsaken the right way? Does that necessarily mean they walked in it at some point before forsaking it? Could it mean that they were commanded to believe and forsook the command before ever keeping it? 2 Peter 2 could be talking about people who know the way of salvation, but suppress that truth (even if they have never submitted to it). In other words, they can forsake the gift offered without ever having tasted of it. Is that a reasonable use of the word "forsake"?

    Maybe Hebrews 6 is a better passage for your argument.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  9. #39
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Many salvations from eternal condemnation ? No. If this is going the way of the "many Gospels" thread I'm bowing out now.
    OK. But before you go, show me please, any fault in my posting #7, for it is that which we discuss. And then give shortly your understand of "save to the uttermost". It was not I who said it. It was the Holy Spirit.

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Certainly, making shipwreck of your faith *can* lead to damnation. My point is that under the Law Israel did make shipwreck of their faith, much as Samson did by following Delilah. However, neither Samson nor all Israel was damned, simply because they temporarily made shipwreck of their faith. Israel was always given an opportunity to return, following their rebellion, assuming they wanted to return.
    I think you and Paul have a different idea of "shipwreck," or perhaps I misunderstand Paul. If I understand Paul's metaphor correctly, he has pictured faith as a journey, beginning with an initial confession of faith and sailing toward the safe harbor of salvation. His warning for Timothy is that the course set for salvation must constantly be maintained or else the ship will run aground and be destroyed. Ultimately, a shipwrecked faith will not arrive at salvation. Does Paul say that explicitly? No, but I think the implication is there.

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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by ST180 View Post
    Hi all,

    Very interesting reading all the posts this far.

    Please indulge my ignorance as I'm here to learn.

    Does 2 Thessalonians 2 have any pertinence in this discussion?
    I'm afraid not.

    In 2 Thess 2 Paul reassured the Thessalonian church who had presumably received false information that the Day of the Lord (the Second Coming) had already occurred. Subsequently, Paul outlined the events that of necessity must come to pass before the Day of the Lord would come.

  12. #42
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. But before you go, show me please, any fault in my posting #7, for it is that which we discuss. And then give shortly your understand of "save to the uttermost". It was not I who said it. It was the Holy Spirit.
    Are you implying there are many different gospels to avoid eternal damnation? Or that there are many other things we get saved from? I believe the latter, but PB seemed to think you were speaking of many gospels concerning avoiding damnation and your reply to him doesn't really address that concern.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  13. #43
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    1st Corinthians 10 and Hebrews 3 and 4 threaten the Christian with the same fate. They might have their sins removed, they might be born again, the might have divine life, they might be sons of God, but this has ONLY to do with the spirit of man. The soul is different. In 2nd Peter 1:4-11 we learn of receiving the divine life in verse 4, "... having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." But then verse 5 shows something that WE HAVE TO GET BY OUR OWN EFFORT. We have to ADD to our faith, BY DILIGENCE, to our characters, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly love and finally the love that characterizes God. Then verse 10 ADMONISHES US to DILIGENTLY to make our calling and election SURE! And verses 11 says that ONLY IF WE ADD ALL THOSE VIRTUES, AND DO ALL THIS, WE WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. It is this that stunned the disciples in Matthew 19:25!
    In Matthew 19:25's context it was a man who had wealth and who would HARDLY ENTER THE KINGDOM. This is not a matter of faith, and it is not even a matter of sin. It is that wealth is bad for the character. Riches are "deceitful" and prevent one entering the kingdom (Matt.13:22). They make you think that your character is better than it really is. But notice what language the disciples use; "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?" That is, ENTERING THE KINGDOM IS EQUAL TO BEING "SAVED"! The young man of Matthew 19 believed Who Jesus was. He had kept Moses' Law entirely. Jesus LOVED him. He had faith and works in accordance with God's Law. But these alone could not get him into the kingdom. He had to ADD poverty, and all that goes with it, to his character.

    I think it is clear from these scriptures, and many others, that a man must undergo a PROCESS of salvation. Otherwise we must discard the verse that says that our Lord can "save to the uttermost". It in itself IMPLIES a progression.
    This is clearly works based salvation. All of the things you are listing as a way unto salvation, are not achieved through our own effort. They are acts unto sanctification that are only done through the Holy Spirit. If one has no fruit of the Spirit , they never had the Spirit. Not vice-versa.

    Read John 3. Read 2 Cor. 5. Salvation happens when we are saved, is happening while we are living, and had happened when we get to glory. All are saved.

  14. #44
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Correct. The "salvation" spoken of here is not salvation from sin, but I want Pbminimum to fathom that there are many salvations, and that the Bible is not just one Chapter. The full salvation, or "salvation to the uttermost" is a magnificent and sublime work done by our Lord Jesus and is so revealed by this maginificent Book, the Bible.
    I don't think Paul is talking about a different kind of salvation. He is talking about being saved unto eternal life. What Paul is NOT saying is, "childbearing is the means by which women are saved." What Paul IS saying, "childbearing is the arena where a woman works out her salvation." In other words, God gave childbearing to women and not men. Childbearing is exclusive to women and because she is a woman, this is the place where she will be tested and grow in the faith.

    Why does Paul raise this issue? Apparently Paul has witnessed certain women, not all women, who chafe at the idea of being female. For these particular women, taking an otherwise male role in society is a way to repudiate being a woman, which in Paul's mind is a repudiation of God's creative wisdom. These particular women are raising their fist to heaven in order to say, "God, why did you make me a woman? I would rather be a man." Not all women in leadership roles have this perspective or attitude and I don't think Paul is speaking to them. He is speaking to women who aren't happy being women.

    Paul wishes to disabuse the church of the false notion that women, by virtue of their role as mothers, aren't able to serve the Lord, or more significantly, women who decide to stay home and be a mother aren't as holy as women who gain leadership roles in the church. Paul argues to the contrary. Women who decide to serve the Lord in the context and arena of being a mother are holy by virtue of the fact that being a mother is a God given role unique to her. Childbearing is an existential reality for a woman; and any woman who finds fulfillment in that arena can never be considered unholy. A woman who chafes at childbearing and repudiates her womanhood is unholy -- not holy.

  15. #45
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    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. But before you go, show me please, any fault in my posting #7, for it is that which we discuss. And then give shortly your understand of "save to the uttermost". It was not I who said it. It was the Holy Spirit.
    Look at the context of Hebrews 7 / 25. It was to the Hebrew Christians. Basically telling them that Christ alone was enough to completely and totally do away with sin. It wasn't so much about man, as it is about Christ's perfect sacrifice to completely and totally save.

    No more law. No more sacrifice. No more works. Christ alone unto salvation.

    Simple, but this is what it means.

    *edit* We are saved from many things...Our flesh, the enemy, the judgment, this world, etc. But we are saved one way. Faith in Christ alone.

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