Page 4 of 35 FirstFirst 123456789101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 513

Thread: Can Salvation be lost?

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,190
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think Christians can destroy their walk with God by turning away from obedience to Christ. It was the same thing under the Law when Hebrews decided not to obey the requirements of the Law. They then were defeated by their enemies and otherwise cursed.

    This is what "shipwreck" means. It doesn't decide someone's eternal fate. It only determines whether one's relationship with God is on good footing or not.

    As you know, when Israel repented of their failures under the Law they could be restored. Many, however, refused to participate in the restoration required under the Law.
    Paul use of the word "shipwreck" to explain that the individual is lost from faith. In most of his epistles, he always urged the sinner to repent, never did he label them as shipwrecked. So in my view, the one he referred to, as shipwrecked are those who are forever lost. Those who temporarily turned from God and repent later are not into this category.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Again, this can in the same way be applied to the Hebrews living under the Law. They could be the most obedient, most loving, most righteous imaginable. But if in the following year they fell in love with pagan women, and allowed them to entice them to worship other gods, tolerating their abominable practices, and began to engage in those pagan practices themselves, their prior righteousness would no longer keep them in God's good standing. None of their previous record of righteousness would prevent them from suffering the curses of disobedience under the Law.

    None of this has anything to do with our eternal fate, unless of course the decision to turn away from God's laws is simultaneously a turning away from God Himself. If you turn away from God Himself why would you ever turn back to Him again? If you *truly* do not like God there is nothing, honestly, to return to!
    Those who choose to limit Ezekiel 18:2 to ancient Israel living in the Law, fail to see how it endures even in the NT age. It has every to do with 'eternal fate'. Just like the apostles who believed and were saved, but at some point inexplicably turned from their faith and abandoned the work of God lost their salvation. I cannot make head or tail why some believe that once you believe in Christ, you have a get out of jail card to heaven irrespective of how you live your life?

    You used a term earlier "eternal salvation" and I responded that God who is ever a keeper of covenants, always keeps his own part of the bargain. But the same cannot be said about us mortals. Therefore, eternal salvation only remains eternal as long as the believer keeps his part of the bargain, ie remain in Christ! For example, a 20-year old who comes to faith might lose it say, 20, 30 years later if he reverts to worldliness.

    Jesus told one of the people who healed from infirmity, "go and sin no more". What do you reckon will happen to that fellow if he ignores that warning and reverts back to sin?

    I personally see this *once saved, always saved* doctrine as dangerous in the sense that it gives people the false hope that they can do and live as they pleased and God will turn a blind eye. A man who fears his home will be looted locks his door when going out because he's afraid of losing his goods. On the other hand, a man with nothing worth stealing/losing wouldn't care so much.

    It is the same with salvation, if you fear you may lose it, then the fear will spur you to guard it with all diligence by living to please him. Conversely, if you are convinced it can't be lost; well, sin is always enticing and attractive. Why not sneak out to a whorehouse now and then, gamble and do all things that God detests. And turn down your nose at the ungodly while you are at it, after all, you are better than they are - for the gate of heaven is ever opened for you.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    5,647
    Blog Entries
    35

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I personally see this *once saved, always saved* doctrine as dangerous in the sense that it gives people the false hope that they can do and live as they pleased and God will turn a blind eye. A man who fears his home will be looted locks his door when going out because he's afraid of losing his goods. On the other hand, a man with nothing worth stealing/losing wouldn't care so much.

    It is the same with salvation, if you fear you may lose it, then the fear will spur you to guard it with all diligence by living to please him. Conversely, if you are convinced it can't be lost; well, sin is always enticing and attractive. Why not sneak out to a whorehouse now and then, gamble and do all things that God detests. And turn down your nose at the ungodly while you are at it, after all, you are better than they are - for the gate of heaven is ever opened for you.
    Good word here. I agree.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,190
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Do they? What if the person wasn't saved in the first place?
    I have already made this argument in a previous post on this subject, see post #35. However, the context in which Paul made the statement refers to those who were previously believers but backslid.

    1 Tim 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

    1 Tim 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    Paul used apostles Hymenaeus and Alexander to encourage his protege, Timothy, to remain steadfast. Take a closer at v-19 "holding faith and a good conscience --which some have put away concerning faith, have made shipwreck". You can't put away *faith* (in Jesus) if you never had it, can you?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Agreed. However, while they speak of a falling away, the passages say nothing with regard to a loss of salvation. A man can't lose what he never had. The fruit of perseverance is salvation.
    We must then hope that they repented and made their way right with God after Paul's statement to regain their salvation, otherwise, if they died in that state, I don't see how they can make heaven, do you?

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,190
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Could it not be said that everyone that goes to hell has forsaken the right way? Does that necessarily mean they walked in it at some point before forsaking it? Could it mean that they were commanded to believe and forsook the command before ever keeping it? 2 Peter 2 could be talking about people who know the way of salvation, but suppress that truth (even if they have never submitted to it). In other words, they can forsake the gift offered without ever having tasted of it. Is that a reasonable use of the word "forsake"?

    Maybe Hebrews 6 is a better passage for your argument.
    Unfortunately no. This view is too speculative and subjective to be taken seriously. There are different classes of people in hell - those who NEVER believed (never saved) and those who believed (saved) but like those in the parable of the seed, received the word with gladness of heart, but it was later choked by the cares of this world, etc.

    And there's nothing is Peter's narrative that suggested they "were commanded to believe". Comand to believe will be in line with the Muslims who force one to believe or face the sword. It has no place in Christendom. Also, notice that Peter didn't say they were forced to (commanded to preach) rather, they preached false doctrine guided by their evil Christ forsaking reprobate minds on their own volition.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    5,647
    Blog Entries
    35

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I have already made this argument in a previous post on this subject, see post #35. However, the context in which Paul made the statement refers to those who were previously believers but backslid.

    1 Tim 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

    1 Tim 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    Paul used apostles Hymenaeus and Alexander to encourage his protege, Timothy, to remain steadfast. Take a closer at v-19 "holding faith and a good conscience --which some have put away concerning faith, have made shipwreck". You can't put away *faith* (in Jesus) if you never had it, can you?
    That's right. But you aren't asking about loosing faith; you are asking about losing salvation. I see these as different questions. Do you know what I mean?

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,190
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    That's right. But you aren't asking about loosing faith; you are asking about losing salvation. I see these as different questions. Do you know what I mean?
    Yes, I see what you mean. But will a loss of faith in Christ not lead to loss of salvation? In the situation where the believer didn't retrace his steps back to Jesus before they die?

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,190
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Let us take an example. Israel kill the Passover and are "SAVED" from the angel of death. They depart Egypt but are caught between the Red Sea and Pharaoh's vengeful army. The waters open, Israel passes through, and Pharaoh's army is destroyed. They are again "SAVED" (Ex.13:40) - but is it the same salvation? Then they went Mara and are "SAVED" by a Tree. And then manna is found in the cool of dawn and they are again "saved". Then they journey through the wilderness for 40 years and a great number stand on the banks of Jordan to cross into their INHERITANCE (Ex.15:17). But 600,000 men of war, including Moses, do not. In this short passage Israel are saved a number of times, but each time it was a different "salvation". Then, many did not get their inheritance, but this does not UNDO what else thy were saved from. They remained sons of Abraham. The promises were still valid for them. They survived the angel of death. They survived the Red Sea. They survived 40 years of a journey that would kill most normal men. And yet they fell short of their inheritance.

    1st Corinthians 10 and Hebrews 3 and 4 threaten the Christian with the same fate. They might have their sins removed, they might be born again, the might have divine life, they might be sons of God, but this has ONLY to do with the spirit of man. The soul is different. In 2nd Peter 1:4-11 we learn of receiving the divine life in verse 4, "... having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." But then verse 5 shows something that WE HAVE TO GET BY OUR OWN EFFORT. We have to ADD to our faith, BY DILIGENCE, to our characters, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly love and finally the love that characterizes God. Then verse 10 ADMONISHES US to DILIGENTLY to make our calling and election SURE! And verses 11 says that ONLY IF WE ADD ALL THOSE VIRTUES, AND DO ALL THIS, WE WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. It is this that stunned the disciples in Matthew 19:25!

    In Matthew 19:25's context it was a man who had wealth and who would HARDLY ENTER THE KINGDOM. This is not a matter of faith, and it is not even a matter of sin. It is that wealth is bad for the character. Riches are "deceitful" and prevent one entering the kingdom (Matt.13:22). They make you think that your character is better than it really is. But notice what language the disciples use; "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?" That is, ENTERING THE KINGDOM IS EQUAL TO BEING "SAVED"! The young man of Matthew 19 believed Who Jesus was. He had kept Moses' Law entirely. Jesus LOVED him. He had faith and works in accordance with God's Law. But these alone could not get him into the kingdom. He had to ADD poverty, and all that goes with it, to his character.

    I think it is clear from these scriptures, and many others, that a man must undergo a PROCESS of salvation. Otherwise we must discard the verse that says that our Lord can "save to the uttermost". It in itself IMPLIES a progression.
    The salvation we are discussing is the promised "eternal life" through faith in Christ which is only redeemed in the resurrection. It is not about being saved from the myriad of afflictions that befall the flesh, given your examples above. When an unbeliever comes to faith, he is assumed to have received salvation in Christ. The question, therefore, is whether, at any point in the life of that individual, he might lose that salvation as a result for example, of unrighteous lifestyle?

    And I think your interpretation of "uttermost" in the text is incorrect. I understand it to mean, completely.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,190
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Maybe Hebrews 6 is a better passage for your argument.
    Sorry, I forgot to address the above. And yes, Heb 6:4-6 is in line with my argument. Paul said in v-6 "If they fall away (backslide), to renew them again unto repentance....". This presents two scenarios - those who repent like David and those who never did until death came knocking...

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Chattanooga, TN
    Posts
    15,443

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Unfortunately no. This view is too speculative and subjective to be taken seriously. There are different classes of people in hell - those who NEVER believed (never saved) and those who believed (saved) but like those in the parable of the seed, received the word with gladness of heart, but it was later choked by the cares of this world, etc.
    OK. I am not convinced that to forsake means one must first own or embrace. But I see why some would believe as you suggest.

    And there's nothing is Peter's narrative that suggested they "were commanded to believe". Comand to believe will be in line with the Muslims who force one to believe or face the sword. It has no place in Christendom. Also, notice that Peter didn't say they were forced to (commanded to preach) rather, they preached false doctrine guided by their evil Christ forsaking reprobate minds on their own volition.
    The entire gospel is a command to believe. It is not so much as offer as it is a command. Jesus started out saying "Repent"; that's a command. Salvation is a gift. But it is not offered so much as it is commanded.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,190
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I think you and Paul have a different idea of "shipwreck," or perhaps I misunderstand Paul. If I understand Paul's metaphor correctly, he has pictured faith as a journey, beginning with an initial confession of faith and sailing toward the safe harbor of salvation. His warning for Timothy is that the course set for salvation must constantly be maintained or else the ship will run aground and be destroyed. Ultimately, a shipwrecked faith will not arrive at salvation. Does Paul say that explicitly? No, but I think the implication is there.
    You couldn't have put it better.

    The believer is sailing toward the promised salvation/eternal life. The safe harbour, at the successful end of the voyage, is the resurrection and rapture of the just when salvation is redeemed via immortality, etc.

    Paul said "I press toward the mark (the safe harbour) for the prize (redemption/fulfilment of salvation) of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" Phil 3:14

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,190
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    OK. I am not convinced that to forsake means one must first own or embrace. But I see why some would believe as you suggest.
    Let's look at it from another from another perspective. So I ask, can you forsake a woman you never married?

    Following this analogy, one must be covenanted (belief in Christ) to the wife in marriage so that when you walk out on her, you have contextually "forsaken" her, isn't it? But if you are not married to her (never believed in Christ) then you can never be accused of forsaking her whenever you leave.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kalahari
    Posts
    5,740

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You used a term earlier "eternal salvation" and I responded that God who is ever a keeper of covenants, always keeps his own part of the bargain. But the same cannot be said about us mortals. Therefore, eternal salvation only remains eternal as long as the believer keeps his part of the bargain, ie remain in Christ! For example, a 20-year old who comes to faith might lose it say, 20, 30 years later if he reverts to worldliness.
    First of all I cannot disagree more with your view point that a born again believer can loose his salvation. The Bible is clear that it is not possible, you are born of eternal seed with the Holy Spirit being the guarantor that what God had decided will come to pass. He chose you before you could choose Him.

    I think you must look at the covenants again. The old covenant had an obligation given to Israel to keep, but I do not see that obligation given in the new covenant. Therefore what is old is gone and the need for a new covenant, a covenant where God is the originator and finisher of the covenant. He will put the law into our hearts and He will be our teacher that He forgave our sins and are our God. That is the new covenant of grace and if you have to do something then it is not grace anymore, but then you have something to boast about.

    Jesus told one of the people who healed from infirmity, "go and sin no more". What do you reckon will happen to that fellow if he ignores that warning and reverts back to sin?
    The Lord discipline those He loves, so what will happen is that you will be disciplined by the Lord as a good Father do to His children. He do not abandoned them.

    I personally see this *once saved, always saved* doctrine as dangerous in the sense that it gives people the false hope that they can do and live as they pleased and God will turn a blind eye. A man who fears his home will be looted locks his door when going out because he's afraid of losing his goods. On the other hand, a man with nothing worth stealing/losing wouldn't care so much.

    It is the same with salvation, if you fear you may lose it, then the fear will spur you to guard it with all diligence by living to please him. Conversely, if you are convinced it can't be lost; well, sin is always enticing and attractive. Why not sneak out to a whorehouse now and then, gamble and do all things that God detests. And turn down your nose at the ungodly while you are at it, after all, you are better than they are - for the gate of heaven is ever opened for you.
    You see it as dangerous because in my opinion you do not really understand it. It is a straw man to say that OSAS believers will live as they please and God will turn a blind eye to it. See previously.

    We do not live in fear, but with a peace only Jesus can give. We are no longer under the dominion of sin, but under the grace of God. Sin have no bearing on our righteousness, because we are righteous in Christ. Sin have a bearing on our relationship and our sanctification, but not our relation of being a child of God or salvation. That is a lie out of the pit of hell.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    7,190
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    First of all I cannot disagree more with your view point that a born again believer can loose his salvation. The Bible is clear that it is not possible, you are born of eternal seed with the Holy Spirit being the guarantor that what God had decided will come to pass. He chose you before you could choose Him.

    I think you must look at the covenants again. The old covenant had an obligation given to Israel to keep, but I do not see that obligation given in the new covenant. Therefore what is old is gone and the need for a new covenant, a covenant where God is the originator and finisher of the covenant. He will put the law into our hearts and He will be our teacher that He forgave our sins and are our God. That is the new covenant of grace and if you have to do something then it is not grace anymore, but then you have something to boast about.
    I appreciate your comments, unfortunately, I am unable to accept them.

    The Lord discipline those He loves, so what will happen is that you will be disciplined by the Lord as a good Father do to His children. He do not abandoned them.
    Would you care to explain how God disciplines a backslid believer who never repented until death? Or are you going to spin me the yarn that a believer is incapable of backsliding?

    You see it as dangerous because in my opinion you do not really understand it. It is a straw man to say that OSAS believers will live as they please and God will turn a blind eye to it. See previously.

    We do not live in fear, but with a peace only Jesus can give. We are no longer under the dominion of sin, but under the grace of God. Sin have no bearing on our righteousness, because we are righteous in Christ. Sin have a bearing on our relationship and our sanctification, but not our relation of being a child of God or salvation. That is a lie out of the pit of hell.
    When Paul said, he keeps his body under subjection (devoid of all manner of defilement) lest after preaching to others, himself could be a castaway (1 Cor 9:27) what you do reckon he meant by "castaway"? A slap on the wrist from God, perhaps?

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kalahari
    Posts
    5,740

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I appreciate your comments, unfortunately, I am unable to accept them.
    I appreciate your honesty. This is the reason why we participate here, to learn and be edified.

    Would you care to explain how God disciplines a backslid believer who never repented until death? Or are you going to spin me the yarn that a believer is incapable of backsliding?
    How is up to the Lord. That He do is what Scripture teaches. Heb 12. I do not believe that a born again believer can fall from faith. The Holy Spirit and Christ are the guarantee of it.

    Joh 6:44* No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.*
    Eph 1:13 And you also became God's people when you heard the true message, the Good News that brought you salvation. You believed in Christ, and God put his stamp of ownership on you by giving you the Holy Spirit he had promised.
    Eph 1:14 The Spirit is the guarantee that we shall receive what God has promised his people, and this assures us that God will give complete freedom to those who are his. Let us praise his glory!
    *

    When Paul said, he keeps his body under subjection (devoid of all manner of defilement) lest after preaching to others, himself could be a castaway (1 Cor 9:27) what you do reckon he meant by "castaway"? A slap on the wrist from God, perhaps?
    No, he did not want to be rejected or disapproved of by men. His concern was that he did anything that could bring reproach on the Gospel he was bringing and teaching to men. He was striving to do his best so that his ministry would not be rejected by men. He was not afraid of losing his salvation, because he knew that it was in Christ by faith through grace secured. This fear was of not being able to preach and minister to people which was his duty.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Chattanooga, TN
    Posts
    15,443

    Re: Can Salvation be lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Would you care to explain how God disciplines a backslid believer who never repented until death? Or are you going to spin me the yarn that a believer is incapable of backsliding?
    I think backsliding is a term that is used too loosely. Look at Psalm 23. That guy said he almost slipped. Yet, he had the mind of a beast. He was bitter with God. And ultimately God had him restored. Not sure he ever "lost" his salvation. David, stayed away from the Lord for a long time, and in his repentance, didn't ask for salvation again, but rather, the restoration of the joy of salvation.

    I don't think scripture teaches one can "lose" their salvation. I think they can walk away from it, willfully, until the Lord grants them a divorce. But at that point, there's no coming back since it would require a 2nd crucifixion and that isn't going to happen.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. If Salvation Can Be Lost, How Would You Know?
    By Aviyah in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 176
    Last Post: Jan 27th 2019, 01:46 AM
  2. Urgent, Lost job, lost home, sold everything of value
    By faithfullyseeking in forum Prayer for the Persecuted Church
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: Nov 27th 2013, 06:47 PM
  3. Salvation lost after every one sin?
    By wrangler77 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Mar 13th 2009, 05:18 AM
  4. IMPORTANT Salvation Regeneration Doctrine Lost?
    By Anikaii in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: Jul 14th 2008, 10:30 PM
  5. Can salvation be lost?
    By swarr in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 130
    Last Post: Oct 29th 2007, 02:37 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •