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Thread: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

  1. #16

    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I would like to see that because I've had a great interest in the Olivet Discourse for many years. I've found that in my own life I've been unable to understand certain prophecies, largely because I didn't have enough information, and sometimes because I lacked experience in the matter being discussed.
    I will be posting a chiastic treatmemt on the Olivet discourse in about a week on http://svetasv.com .. I woll post a new thread here at that time.

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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Quote Originally Posted by svetasv View Post
    I answer those questions in the paper linked. http://www.svetasv.com/aa/1002_Daniel_70_weeks.html
    Please see section titled "5.4.2 The meaning of the word "covenant" ". if you dont have time to read the entire paper.

    Here is an excerpt:
    We contend that the "covenant" is an agreement between God and Titus, probably through a number of intermediaries, to completely eliminate the Judahite people and destroy the city of Jerusalem within 7 years. During those 7 years, all divine protection for the Israelites would be suspended. Protection would be reinstated at the end of that time for the sake of "elect" - those who believed in Jesus and fled as he warned them in the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:22).
    Had a look and it is much simpler how I have put it, and also in line with what is actually written and in the way stated. God did not make a covenant with Titus to destroy the Jews for 7 years. So this is totally wrong.

    The simple way to read it is
    From - to is 7 weeks
    From - to is 62 weeks
    From - to is 1 week

    This then fits with what we are told in other scripture and doesn't rely on obfuscation, but rather a grasp of the prophecies which are relevant.
    We are told in Dan 9 that the key prophecies are those of Jeremiah. Once you get that the first 7 weeks relate to the Word of God going forth - and not the decree of man, then it becomes quite simple.
    In Hebrew the word for "word" and "decree" are separate words.

    So the first 7 weeks are about from God's Word for restoration, to the anointed one who sets them free and then being restored to the land is 7 weeks - which we know is correct from history and from scripture. Isaiah 44 & 45 and Ezra 1 confirm this.
    This then helps us with the rest.

    The next 62 weeks, which are stated as 62 weeks, and NOT 69 weeks which many seem to count, are from the completion of the city walls and its people consecrated afresh to God, to the coming of the anointed one. Again we discover that scripture and history confirms this. Luke 2 states the timing of the anointed one, who is anointed from birth. We know the basic date of the consecration of walls from Nehemiah.

    This then leaves the final week, which has its start with the covenant of the many and ends like the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks with the coming of an anointed one and the completion of the 70 weeks.

    What we don't have is the count of years between the 7 weeks and 62 weeks, and this is due to it being a requirement for the Jews (in particular) to respond. The same is true of the gap between the 62 weeks and the 1 week. Again it is waiting for the Jews to say "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord".
    People who understood Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezra, Nehemiah and Daniel KNEW basically when the 62 weeks started and so knew when the anointed one was due to come.
    When we see the start of the 1 week then we will know when it will end with the return of the King.

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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, ....

    to finish the transgression,
    to make an end of sin,
    to make atonement for iniquity,
    to bring in everlasting righteousness,
    to seal up vision and prophecy
    and to anoint the most holy place.


    Blood has already been shed to accommodate all these points.
    These had all been fulfilled -- made true -- by Jesus Christ who under Pontius Pilate was killed, was buried and was RAISED from the dead, from death, and from the grave, once for all : "His Name in being rested up again, The Most Holy Place." Isaiah 57:15.

    "And the People sang, LONG LIVE THE KING! And the City was peaceful ... after they had killed Athaliah."

    Satan and his hosts are, defeated, the abomination of desolation is, conquered and vanquished, by Jesus Christ about 2000 earth-years ago.

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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    randyk said: "... The "70 Weeks" makes sense as it is, and likely assumes an interpretation already recognized in history. Otherwise, one can say that God gave a prophecy that nobody really understood. And God isn't like that. Or, one might say, God waited for someone like Joseph Smith to give it proper meaning, and the result would be attention given to a cult leader. I don't think God would do that either.

    If we begin at 457 BC and work "contiguously" from there we will have a time-honored interpretation that makes sense in the "normal way.""

    Yes, this is correct, since there is not a single time prophecy which is not contiguous in its being fulfilled. There is not a single time prophecy in scripture which has a 'gap'. This is demonstrated here:

    All (every single one of the) time prophecies in scripture are indeed 'contiguous', and not a single one not so.
    [1] Genesis prophecy (Genesis 1-2; Isaiah 46:9-10; Matthew 13:35) of six days and the 7th of rest - being "a day with the LORD is as a thousand years" (2 Peter 3:8; Psalms 90:4), and 1000 years as a watch in the night (4 watches at night, leading into day, Jesus is the Sun of Righteousness, after 4,000 years of the darkness of sin, He came to deliver from sin), thus 6,000 years and the 7,000th (final 1,000) of earth's battle with sin is over (Revelation 20:1-7) - see http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...82112145612890

    There are numerous typological aspects as well of this.
    [2] Noah's prophecy of "an hundred and twenty years" years for the flood, coming at the death of Methuselah, unto the very "day" - 120 years (Genesis 6:3, 7:11,13)
    [3] Joseph's "seven years of great plenty" (Genesis 41:29) and "seven years of famine" (Genesis 41:27) - which were 14 years together back to back, consecutive (Genesis 41:17-36,47,53-54)
    [4] Moses' prophecy of wandering the desert in relation to spying the land of Canaan - 40 days = 40 years; (Numbers 14:34)
    [5] David's prophecy of "three days" of pestilence - 3 days exactly (2 Samuel 24:13-25; 1 Chronicles 21:12-30)
    [6] Isaiah's prophecy unto Hezekiah "add unto thy days fifteen years" - and Hezekiah died after that time of exactly 15 years (2 Kings 20:6,21)
    [7] Isaiah's prophecy unto Moab, "three years" - fulfilled (Isaiah 16:14)
    [8] Isaiah's prophecy unto Kedar "within a year" - fulfilled (Isaiah 21:16)
    [9] Isaiah's prophecy unto Tyre - 70 years; (Isaiah 23:15,17).
    [10] Jeremiah's prophecy of the captivity - 70 years; (2 Chronicles 36:21; Jeremiah 25:11,12, 29:10; Daniel 9:2)
    [11] Jeremiah's prophecy of the death of Hananiah "this year" - fulfilled (Jeremiah 28:16-17)
    [12] Ezekiel's prophecy of the sins of Israel and Judah in the siege [Israel] "three hundred ninety days", and [Judah] "forty days" - 390 days = 390 years, and 40 days = 40 years, for a grand total of 430 days = 430 years (Ezekiel 4:4-8)
    [13] Daniel's prophecy of "a time and times and the dividing of time" (Daniel 7:25), "a time, times, and an half" (Daniel 12:7) which combined with Revelation's prophecy of "forty and two months" (Revelation 11:2), "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Revelation 11:3), "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Revelation 12:6), "a time, and times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14), "forty and two months" (Revelation 13:5), also known as "the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24), "the Gentiles" (Revelation 11:2) - which are all the same timeframe of 1,260 years, which is a subsection of 2,300 of Daniel 8:13,14,26; Revelation 9:15, 10:6, 14:6-7.
    [14] Daniel's prophecy of the "two thousand and three hundred days" - 2,300 years encompassing the whole of the time from the start in the Persian-Median Kingdom, through Grecia, into Roman Kingdom, and it's divisions, the uprising of the little horn to power, its deadly wound, and the entering in of Christ Jesus into the Most Holy Place with the Father and the opening of the books in Heaven - Daniel 8:13,14,26; Revelation 9:15, 10:6, 14:6-7.
    [15] Daniel's prophecy of the "seventy weeks" (Daniel 9:24) which is subdivided into "seven weeks" (Daniel 9:25a) and "threescore" (Daniel 9:25b) "and two weeks" (Daniel 9:25c), of which the final "one week" (70th; Daniel 9:27) is again subdivided into two parts, "in the midst of the week" (Daniel 9:27), being exactly 3 1/2 and 3 1/2 days of the final week - 490 years, being subdivided into 49 years, 434 years = 483 years with 7 years left, half of the 7 final years being fulfilled and confirmed by Jesus from Baptism (Messiah the Prince) unto Crucifixion ("cut off"), which is 3 1/2 years from AD 27 to AD 31 ("causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease", which was "after threescore" "and two weeks" (Daniel 9:26), which has no 'gaps'), and the final portion of the final week, being confirmed by the apostles/disciples in Jesus' stead (John 20:21; Hebrews 2:3, etc) unto the toning of Stephen, in AD 34. This 70 weeks is merely a portion ("determined" (Daniel 9:24), for Jesus is the "certain" saint (the wonderful numberer; Daniel 8:13, which sections, "determines" (Acts 17:26) the times unto man from the greater time (Genesis) allotted) see also Daniel 8:1,15,16,17,19, 27, 9:21,22, "vision", "understand", "Gabriel", "at the first", etc) of the greater time prophecy of 2,300 (Daniel 8:13,14,26; Revelation 9:15, 10:6, 14:6-7).
    [16] Daniel's prophecy of the "a thousand two hundred and ninety days" - being 1,290 years, ending the same time as the 1,260 (Daniel 12:11)
    [17] Daniel's prophecy of "the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" - being 1,335 years, beginning the same time as the 1,290, and ending the same time as the 2,300 (Daniel 12:11; Revelation 14:13, "blessed")
    [18] Jonah's "forty days" - Ninevah was given this exact time to repent or perish (Jonah 3:4)
    [19] Jesus' prophecy of "three days" - in three days Jesus was resurrected (Matthew 16:21; Luke 18:33, 24:7,21; John 2:19-20, etc), no 'gaps' (inspite of all those erroneous Wednesday/Thursday crucifictionists convoluted ideas)
    [20] Jesus' prophecy of his final days of ministry, "I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected (finished, completed)" and "to day, and to morrow, and the day following" - which refers to his last 3 days of workings of miracles among the people before being taken captive - (Luke 13:32-33).
    [21] Jesus prophecy of "this generation" - within 40 years exactly Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed (Matthew 23:36; Luke 11:50,51)
    [22] Revelation's prophecy of the "ten days" - 10 years (Revelation 2:10)
    [23] Revelation's prophecy of the "five months", "those days" - Pentecost to Trumpets (Revelation 9:5,6,10; (type) Luke 1:24; (type) Genesis 7:24, 8:3; Leviticus 23:15-25)
    [24] Revelation's prophecy of the "an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year" - the exact date of the day of Atonement, with the golden Altar in the Most Holy Place; (Revelation 9:13-15)
    [25] Revelation's prophecy of the "three days and a half" - 3 1/2 years (Revelation 11:9,11)
    [26] Revelation's prophecy of the "thousand years" (Revelation 20:1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - is literally a thousand years (Daniel 7:22; Isaiah 24:22; as it is the final "day" of the cosmic Week, foretold in Genesis; 2 Peter 3:8; Psalms 90:4; Isaiah 46:9-10; Matthew 13:35, etc)
    Also those time prophecies, even when divided into smaller portions, are always 'contiguous':
    [1] Joseph's "seven years of great plenty" (Genesis 41:29) and "seven years of famine" (Genesis 41:27) - which were 14 years together back to back, consecutive with no 'gaps' (Genesis 41:17-36,47,53-54)
    [2] Jeremiah's prophecy of captivity (2 Chronicles 36:21), in which it says "threescore and ten" years. There is no 'gap' between the "threescore" and the "ten" years.
    [3] Ezekiel's prophecy of the sins of Israel and Judah, though given in two portions, [Israel] 390 & [Judah] 40, are a total of 430 years. There is no 'gap' between the "three hundred and ninety" and "forty" years.
    [4] Daniel's prophecy of the "seventy weeks" (Daniel 9:24) which is subdivided into "seven weeks" (Daniel 9:25a) and "threescore" (Daniel 9:25b) "and two weeks" (Daniel 9:25c) (which has no 'gaps' between "threescore" and "two"), of which the final "one week" (70th; Daniel 9:27) is again subdivided into two parts, "in the midst of the week" (Daniel 9:27), being exactly 3 1/2 and 3 1/2 days of the final week - 490 years, being subdivided into 49 years, 434 years = 483 years with 7 years left, half of the 7 final years being fulfilled and confirmed by Jesus from Baptism (Messiah the Prince) unto Crucifixion ("cut off"), which is 3 1/2 years from AD 27 to AD 31 ("causing the sacrfice and oblation to cease", which was "after threescore" "and two weeks" (Daniel 9:26), which has no 'gaps'), and the final portion of the final week, being confirmed by the apostles/disciples in Jesus' stead (John 20:21; Hebrews 2:3, etc) unto the toning of Stephen, in AD 34. This 70 weeks is merely a portion ("determined" (Daniel 9:24), for Jesus is the "certain" saint (the wonderful numberer; Daniel 8:13, which sections, "determines" (Acts 17:26) the times unto man from the greater time (Genesis) allotted) see also Daniel 8:1,15,16,17,19, 27, 9:21,22, "vision", "understand", "Gabriel", "at the first", etc) of the greater time prophecy of 2,300 (Daniel 8:13,14,26; Revelation 9:15, 10:6, 14:6-7). And for those which erronesouly teach that the 7 final years (of the 70 weeks) take place at the end of time ('separated' from the first 69 weeks by over 2 millenia (2,000 years)), they generally accept 'no gaps', even though the final week of the 70 weeks is divided into two, with "in the midst of the week".
    They are inconsistent across the board in Daniel 9.

    [bonus] Even the "years" foretold in the days of Elijah, was exactly 3 years and six months, which went from the two times of rains, early (3 years) and latter (6 months): 1 Kings 17:1 "these years"; 1 Kings 18;1, "third year"; Luke 4:25 "three years and six months"; James 5:17 "space of three years and six months".

    Also, as for the date to begin "from the going forth of the commandment [Ezra 6:14, "the commandment of God" ] unto ...", this is also prophetically certain and historically verified in numerous ways:

    There are several ways to correlate data, first we can use the scriptural ages, given from Genesis, in the genealogies, ages of kings, etc, and combine with known dates in history, such as the 7th year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir, being in the Fall of 457 BC (by astronomical sources, Ptolemy's Canon, Elephantine Papyri, - Artaxerxes I of Persia - Wikipedia

    And according to multiple sources:

    VAT 5047 (No. -453 in ADT I), dated to year 11 of Artaxerxes I (454/453 BCE). - Chronology Persia

    LBAT 1419 (No. 4 in ADT V), with one entry dated to year 21 of Xerxes (465/464 BCE). - Chronology Persia

    LBAT 1387+1388+1486 (No. 56 in ADT V), mainly dated to the reign of Artaxerxes I. - Chronology Persia

    Saros Tablets - LBART *1419; Accession of Artaxerxes I, pages 80-81, citing, J. N. Strassmaier in reports in ZA, VII [1892], 200, 201; VIII [1893], 106) - https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/.../1968-1-05.pdf

    The Chronology of Ezra 7 (1953), Siegfried H. Horn, Ph.D; Lynn H. Wood, Ph.D, page 28-30 (Conclusion) - http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Fur...HE CHRONOLOGY OF EZRA 7 (Siegried H Horn).pdf

    Elephantine Papyri - Siegfried H. Horn and Lynn H. Wood, "The Fifth-Century Jewish Calendar at Elephantine," JNES 13 (1954):14-16 - http://adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io...th_Century_Jewish_Calendar_at_ Elephantine.pdf

    Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary, by J. D. Douglas, Merrill C. Tenney, section, "Nehemiah, book of", page 1008, par. 3 (Left-hand Column) - Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary

    Aramaic Ritual Texts from Persepolis, Volume 91, University of Chicago Press, 1970 pages 143-144 - Aramaic Ritual Texts from Persepolis

    Ancient Israel: Its History and Meaning, by Heber Cyrus Snell, page 203 - Ancient Israel

    Babylonian Chronology: 626 B.C. - A.D. 75, Part 75, by Richard A. Parker, & Waldo H. Dubberstein, page 32, Table for Artaxerxes I, 7th year, far right columns, for 1-3 months of reign (fall) - Babylonian Chronology

    The Apocrypha of the Old Testament, Revised Standard version, by Bruce Manning Metzger (1965), Oxford University Press, page 16 - The Apocrypha of the Old Testament, Revised Standard version

    An Epitome of General Ecclesiastical History: From the Earliest Period of Antiquity to the Present Time, by Rev. John Marsh A.M. (1828) & Adam Clarke; Chapter 6, page 75 - An Epitome of General Ecclesiastical History

    We also know that John the Baptist began his ministry in AD 26 (which places Jesus ministry begun in AD 27):

    ...to determining when the reign of Tiberius Caesar started.[38] The traditional approach is … that the reign of Tiberius started when he became co-regent in 11AD, placing the start of the ministry of John the Baptist around 26 AD. ...” - Wikipedia; "Baptism of Jesus" - Baptism of Jesus - Wikipedia

    "...John the Baptist was born about 5 BC, and now about 26 A.D. about the age of 30 he appears in the wilderness of Judea. ..." Bible-History; John the Baptist - John the Baptist Appears - Story of The New Testament (Bible History Online)

    Which perfectly correlates to the 2,300 and 70 Weeks of Daniel's 8 & 9.

    Take the astronomically certain 457 BC (fall) of Ezra 6:14, 7:1-28; Daniel 8 & 9, and move forward 69 weeks (Daniel 9:27; Luke 3:23), and one comes directly to AD 27 (6 months pior in AD 26 for John the Baptist and 30 years prior, Luke 3:23, come to about 4 BC for birth of Jesus, and 6 months before that, is John the Baptist), the 'anointing' of Jesus at His Baptism in the Jordan (Luke 3:21-22, 4:1,14-19), then 3 1/2 day/years later (Ezekiel 4:6 (contemporary with Daniel); Numbers 14:34, etc) and one comes to the crucifixion of Jesus in AD 31 (Hebrews 10:26), and 3 1/2 years later the stoning of Stephen in AD 34 (Acts 7:51-60), as per Hebrews 2:3, etc:

    Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

  5. #20
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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyGospelShoes View Post
    We also know that John the Baptist began his ministry in AD 26 (which places Jesus ministry begun in AD 27):
    [/FONT]
    ...to determining when the reign of Tiberius Caesar started.[38] The traditional approach is … that the reign of Tiberius started when he became co-regent in 11AD, placing the start of the ministry of John the Baptist around 26 AD. ...” - Wikipedia; "Baptism of Jesus" - Baptism of Jesus - Wikipedia

    "...John the Baptist was born about 5 BC, and now about 26 A.D. about the age of 30 he appears in the wilderness of Judea. ..." Bible-History; John the Baptist - John the Baptist Appears - Story of The New Testament (Bible History Online)

    Which perfectly correlates to the 2,300 and 70 Weeks of Daniel's 8 & 9.

    Take the astronomically certain 457 BC (fall) of Ezra 6:14, 7:1-28; Daniel 8 & 9, and move forward 69 weeks (Daniel 9:27; Luke 3:23), and one comes directly to AD 27 (6 months pior in AD 26 for John the Baptist and 30 years prior, Luke 3:23, come to about 4 BC for birth of Jesus, and 6 months before that, is John the Baptist), the 'anointing' of Jesus at His Baptism in the Jordan (Luke 3:21-22, 4:1,14-19), then 3 1/2 day/years later (Ezekiel 4:6 (contemporary with Daniel); Numbers 14:34, etc) and one comes to the crucifixion of Jesus in AD 31 (Hebrews 10:26), and 3 1/2 years later the stoning of Stephen in AD 34 (Acts 7:51-60), as per Hebrews 2:3, etc:

    Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:[/SIZE]
    The problem with this view is that one has to assume the stoning of Stephen was a massive conclusive spiritual event that is an end of an era for Israel (even though the NT hardly ever mentions it)
    In addition can you date the stoning of Stephen to late AD34?
    In addition v24 is clear it will take 490 years to conclude some great events, it is very clumsy to see that concluded by year 486.5 instead of year 490.


    For these reasons I see the stoning of Stephen as a speculative and unconvincing fulfillment of the 490 year period.

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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    DurbanDude said, "The problem with this view is that one has to assume the stoning of Stephen was a massive conclusive spiritual event that is an end of an era for Israel (even though the NT hardly ever mentions it) ..."

    My reply, scripture says:

    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Heb_10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
    Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

    It is not merely "spiritual", but even given in actual events by Jesus Himself.

    [1] Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon Jesus begins His 3 1/2 years.
    [2] Works miracles, etc
    [3] persecuted
    [4] face glows, soldiers fall back
    [5] arrested
    [6] brought before Sanhedrin
    [7] "cut off" (cut out of the congregation by Sanhedrin at Trial)
    [8] martyred outside

    This pattern is followed in the lives of the Apostles/disciples, from Pentecost, thus we come to Stephen:

    [1] Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon them, begins the latter 3 1/2 years.
    [2] work miracles, etc
    [3] persectued
    [4] arrested
    [5] brought before sanhedrin
    [6] face glows (as an angel), sanhedrin amazed
    [7] "cut off" (cut out of the congregation by Sanhedrin at Trial)
    [8] martyred outside

    Yes, if you read Acts carefully, you can see the time passing. There are also other parallels, such as between Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus and Gamaliel interfering. Disputings with Christ and with Stephen. False witnesses with Christ and with Stephen.

    The Sanhedrin was the chief law in the land. The rejected the Head, but had not yet the body in full, and when they rejected Stephen, the body also was rejected, and they brought upon themselves their own destruction.

    Jesus was seen "standing" in Acts 7. This was their end. See also parallels in Daniel 12:1 and Luke 13:25. When Jesus stands, it is the close of their allotted time, which was 490 years, even as Jesus told Peter in Matthew 18:22.

  7. #22

    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    The 490 years are continuous. If it were not the Bible lied to you. It says 490 years and it means 490 years. 490 years had been decreed for your people, (the Jews), and your holy city, (Jerusalem).
    To finish transgression and sins (Romans 6:22)

    To make atonement for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:17-19)

    To seal up vision and prophecy (Romans 16:25-26 NASB)

    and to anoint the most holy. (Luke 17:20-21 NASB)

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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyGospelShoes View Post
    DurbanDude said, "The problem with this view is that one has to assume the stoning of Stephen was a massive conclusive spiritual event that is an end of an era for Israel (even though the NT hardly ever mentions it) ..."

    My reply, scripture says:

    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Heb_10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
    Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

    It is not merely "spiritual", but even given in actual events by Jesus Himself.

    [1] Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon Jesus begins His 3 1/2 years.
    [2] Works miracles, etc
    [3] persecuted
    [4] face glows, soldiers fall back
    [5] arrested
    [6] brought before Sanhedrin
    [7] "cut off" (cut out of the congregation by Sanhedrin at Trial)
    [8] martyred outside

    This pattern is followed in the lives of the Apostles/disciples, from Pentecost, thus we come to Stephen:

    [1] Baptism of the Holy Spirit upon them, begins the latter 3 1/2 years.
    [2] work miracles, etc
    [3] persectued
    [4] arrested
    [5] brought before sanhedrin
    [6] face glows (as an angel), sanhedrin amazed
    [7] "cut off" (cut out of the congregation by Sanhedrin at Trial)
    [8] martyred outside

    Yes, if you read Acts carefully, you can see the time passing. There are also other parallels, such as between Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus and Gamaliel interfering. Disputings with Christ and with Stephen. False witnesses with Christ and with Stephen.

    The Sanhedrin was the chief law in the land. The rejected the Head, but had not yet the body in full, and when they rejected Stephen, the body also was rejected, and they brought upon themselves their own destruction.

    Jesus was seen "standing" in Acts 7. This was their end. See also parallels in Daniel 12:1 and Luke 13:25. When Jesus stands, it is the close of their allotted time, which was 490 years, even as Jesus told Peter in Matthew 18:22.
    I dont agree with you that when Jesus is seen standing then it's an end of an Era. Jesus is often standing or sitting or riding a horse or donkey. It's a very shaky viewpoint that places an end of an Era then, just because Jesus stands. Stephen's stoning is just one of many NT events that contributed towards the spread of the gospel. Please show me how that particular event occurred in late 34 AD. And please show me how that particular event was so great it caused this to occur at year 490:

    holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place

  9. #24

    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Let's try to make this as easy as we can. Since I have begun the count with the only certain date, the date the sanctuary was destroyed, and worked backward, the uncertain dates become assumed, but still match the prophecy.

    416 BC (assumed) Nehemiah’s "word" in his second term, between 431 to 401 BC, to restore the religious faith and temple practices.
    367 BC (assumed) The end of the seven weeks. No reason for this division is given.
    66 The end of the thirty-two weeks. "Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself." Josephus reports an army in the clouds over Jerusalem. The Jewish Revolt begins.
    67 the last seven begins with the meeting of Roman allies to squelch the Jewish Revolt
    70 The sanctuary is destroyed and the offerings and sacrifices are ended forever. The abomination that causes desolation.
    74 the final Jewish resistance ends at Masada. The last seven is complete.

    This is not to be confused with the earlier Antiochus IV desecration of the temple in 167 BC in which the sanctuary was cleansed.

  10. #25
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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    DurbanDude said, "I dont agree with you ..."

    My reply, Then you have not agreed with the scripture, not with me.

    Do a study on "stand up", "arise", "lift up", in connection with God standing, as already given you, Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25. It is the finality of mercy's probation, and the stepping in of judgment.

    Psa_3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
    Psa_7:6 Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.
    Psa_9:19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
    Psa_10:12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
    Psa_12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
    Psa_17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
    Psa_44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
    Psa_44:26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies' sake.
    Psa_68:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David. Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
    Psa_74:22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.
    Psa_82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
    Psa_102:13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
    Psa_132:8 Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.

    Psa_94:2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.

    Amo_9:1 I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

    Act_7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    Act_7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

  11. #26
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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    DurbanDude said: "... holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place"

    My reply:

    Everlasting righteousness began with Jesus.

    Jesus/Michael stood up in AD 34 [Acts 7:55-56 KJB], the end of the 70 weeks, in Daniel 9, and thus the close of the probation of the Jews as a nation, the sanhedrin, having rejected the Head and the body. He will so stand again [Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25; Revelation 22:11 KJB, etc]

    AD 27 + 3 1/2 = AD 31; crucifixion. The first of the final week of the 70 weeks, as Jesus told Peter [Matthew 18:22 KJB]

    AD 31 + 3 1/2 = AD 34; Stephen martyred. End of the 70 weeks, as we see in Hebrews 2:3 KJB

    Parallels [the short version, two rainbows]:

    Jesus in AD 27 Anointed with the Holy Ghost, ministry 3 1/2 years, miracles, taken captive AD 31, rejected by the sanhedrin, condemned to death, dies outside the city

    Disciples/Apostles in AD 31 anointed with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, ministry 3 1/2 years, miracles, Stephen is taken captive AD 34, rejected by the sanhedrin, condemned to death, dies outside of the city.

    Daniel 9:27 KJB - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Hebrews 10:12 KJB - But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    Hebrews 10:26 KJB - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


    Hebrews 2:3 KJB - How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    Romans 15:8 KJB - Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:


    Through Christ Jesus, it is the end of sin, He brought in everlasting righteousness, reconciliation, etc.

    Matthew 1:21 KJB - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Hebrews 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    2 Corinthians 5:18 KJB - And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

    2 Corinthians 5:19 KJB - To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Hebrews 2:17 KJB - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.​

    Victory began with Jesus, and He went forth conquering and to conquer (Revelation 6:2) - undefeatable.

  12. #27
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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Bryan Pergola said: "This is not to be confused with the earlier Antiochus IV desecration of the temple in 167 BC in which the sanctuary was cleansed."

    My reply: I am not saying by this reply that you are saying that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is antichrist, but since the name was brought up, I thought I would eliminate that route that others might attempt.

    Looking at Antiochus IV Epiphanes [Epimanes, the mad one], and the failure of this person to fulfil the prophecies of Daniel 8's 'little horn':
    "... He was not deficient in capacity or vigour of mind to make a figure in war; but [31] such perversity and indiscretion prevailed in his whole conduct and behaviour, that they soon changed the surname which they had given him, and instead of Epiphanes, called him Epimanes, or madman; for many were the acts of folly ar madness which he committed. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    "... Wherefore to many he appeared not to know what he was doing; some said that he acted from a silly sportive temper; others, that he was evidently mad. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XX [20] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    There are some who attempt, from the apocryphal books of Maccabees, to demonstrate that Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfills the prophcies of Daniel 8's 'little horn', but now let us examine that source and see for ourselves that the claim cannot be defeneded.

    For instance in, we see that Epiphanes had 'ben a pledge at Rome' [1 Maccabees 1:11, Bishop's Bible 1568] [ie Hostage in youth at Rome, against his Father Antiochus III].

    "... About this time, Antiochus, son to Antiochus the Great, who had been for a long time a hostage at Rome, came into possession of the kingdom of Syria, on the death of his brother Seleucus. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    It only gets worse from here on out... as even according to history he [Antiochus IV] did not wax “exceeding great” by any standards, in Egypt [South], Jerusalem [Pleasant Land] or East [Medo-Persia], as his Father Antiochus III had, etc.

    A lone Roman ambassador [Gaius Popillius Laenas from the Roman Senate] and some guards put him to flight in Egypt [ca. 168 BC], rescuing Egypt completely out of his hands:

    "... XI. In the mean time, Antiochus, after a fruitless attempt against the walls of Alexandria, had retired; and being now master of all the rest of Egypt, he left, at Memphis, the elder Ptolemy, whose settlement on the throne was the pretended object of his armament, though, in reality, he meant to attack him, as soon as he should have vanquished his competitors; and, then, he led back his army into Syria. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XI [11] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    "... XII. When the time fixed for the suspension of hostilities, was elapsed, Antiochus ordered the commanders of his fleet to sail up the mouth of the Nile to Pelusium, while he himself entered Egypt, through the deserts of Arabia. He was amicably received by the people about Memphis, as he was, afterwards, by the rest of the Egyptians; some being led by inclination, others by fear; and he proceeded thus, by short marches, down to Alexandria. He had just crossed the river at Eleusine, four miles from that city, when he was met by [249] the Roman ambassadors. At their coming, he saluted them, and held out his right hand to Popillius; but Popillius putting into his hand a written tablet, desired him first to peruse that. On reading it, he said, that he would call his friends together, and consult what was to be done; on which Popillius, with that roughness which generally marked his character, drew a line round the King, with a wand which he held in his hand, and said, “Before you go out of that circle, give such an answer as I may report to the senate.” Astonished at such a peremptory injunction, the King hesitated for some time; but, at last, replied, “I will do as the senate directs.” Popillius then thought proper to stretch out his right hand to him; as to a friend and ally. Antiochus having retired out of Egypt, on a day prefixed, the ambassadors employed their influence in establishing concord among the royal family, on a more firm basis than it had yet acquired; and then sailed to Cyprus, from whence they sent home the ships of Antiochus, and which had fought and defeated an Egyptian fleet. This embassy attracted a great share of respect from all nations; having manifestly rescued Egypt out of the hands of the Syrian, when he had it within his grasp, and restored to the race of Ptolemy, the kingdom of their forefathers. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XII [12] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    Even the Jews [Judas Maccabees, etal. according to the apocryphal books of [1-4] Maccabees] threw him [his armies] out of Jerusalem, in the Maccabean revolt. And nowhere could it be said that he waxed exceeding great in the east [Media-Persian, area], dying there in great heaviness [sorrow/sadness] and dishonour [1 Maccabees 6:3-6, Bishop's Bible 1568]:

    1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

    1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

    1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,

    1 Maccabees 6:6 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And how that Lysias went foorth first with a great power, and was dryuen away of the Iewes, how that they had wonne the victory, and gotten great goodes out of the hoastes that perished,​

    Further more:

    1 Maccabees 6:8 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So it chaunced, that when the king heard these wordes, he was afrayde, & greeued very sore: Wherefore he layde him downe vpon his bed, and fell sicke for very sorowe, and all because it had not happened as he had deuised.

    1 Maccabees 6:9 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And there continued he long: for his griefe was euer more and more, so that he sawe he must needes dye.

    1 Maccabees 6:10 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore he sent for all his friendes, & saide vnto them: The sleepe is gone fro myne eyes for the very sorowe and vexation of heart that I haue.

    2 Maccabees 9:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - At the same time came Antiochus againe with dishonour out of Persia.

    2 Maccabees 9:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For when he came to Persepolis, and vndertoke to robbe the temple, and to subdue the citie, the people ranne together and defended them selues, insomuch that he and his were faine to flee with shame: and so after that flight it happened that Antiochus came againe with dishonour.​

    and, by his own words, as given in 1 Maccabees, he dies, a miserable failure, in a “straunge lande” of the “east”, or just outside of Persia [and apparently, whose body, did Phillip bring down into Egypt, 2 Maccabees 9:29 Bishop's Bible 1568]:

    1 Maccabees 6:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - I know that these troubles are come vpon me for the same cause: and behold, I must dye with great sorowe in a straunge lande.

    1 Maccabees 6:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So the king Antiochus died there, in the hundred fourtie and nine yere.

    2 Maccabees 9:28 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Thus that murtherer and blasphemer of God was sore smitten: and like as he had intreated other men, so he died a miserable death in a straunge countrey vpon a mountayne.​

    Apparently, in 2 Maccabees, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, has a repentant heart, desires to repair all of the wrongs, rebuild the temple and become a Jew himself, and preach to the world, and sends a 'letter' as such [though dies miserably still], which is also not in harmony with the scriptural account of the “little horn”, which never repents:

    2 Maccabees 9:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - This wicked person prayed also vnto the Lorde, who nowe woulde haue no mercie vpon him:

    2 Maccabees 9:14 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as for the citie that he came vnto so hastyly, to bring it downe to the ground, and to make it a graue for dead men, now he desireth to deliuer it free:

    2 Maccabees 9:15 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as touching the Iewes, whom he had iudged not worthy to be buried, but woulde haue cast them out with their children, for to be deuoured of the foules and wilde beastes, [saying that he woulde haue destroyed both olde and young:] now he promysed to make them like the citezins of Athens:

    2 Maccabees 9:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And where as he had spoyled the holy temple afore, nowe he maketh promyse to garnishe it with great giftes, to encrease the holy ornamentes, and of his owne rentes to beare the costes & charges belonging to the offringes:

    2 Maccabees 9:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Yea and that he would also become a Iewe hym selfe, to go through euery place of the worlde that was inhabyted, and to preache the power of God.

    2 Maccabees 9:18 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But when his paynes would not ceasse, (for the ryghteous iudgement of God was come vpon hym) out of a very dispayre he wrote vnto the Iewes a letter of intercession, conteyning these words:

    2 Maccabees 9:19 Bishop's Bible 1568 - The king and prince Antiochus, wisheth vnto the vertuous citezins of the Iewes much health and good prosperitie.

    2 Maccabees 9:20 Bishop's Bible 1568 - If ye and your children fare well, and if all thinges go after your minde, we geue great thankes.

    2 Maccabees 9:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - In my sicknesse also do I remember you louyngly: for as I came out of Persia, & was taken with sore disease, I thought it necessary to care for the common wealth:

    2 Maccabees 9:22 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Neither dispaire I in my selfe, but haue a good hope to escape this sickenesse.

    2 Maccabees 9:23 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But considering that my father led an hoast somtime in the higher places, and shewed who should raigne after him,

    2 Maccabees 9:24 Bishop's Bible 1568 - That if there happened any controuersie, or any hard thing were declared, they in the lande might knowe their chiefe Lorde, that there should be no insurrection.

    2 Maccabees 9:25 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Againe, when I ponder with my selfe, how that al the mightie men and neighbours rounde about are laying wayte, & loke but for oportunitie to do harme: I haue ordeined that my sonne Antiochus shall raigne after me, whom I oft commended to many of you, when I was in the higher kingdomes, & haue written vnto him as it foloweth hereafter.

    2 Maccabees 9:26 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore I pray you and require you to remember the benefites that I haue done vnto you generally and in especiall, and that euery man wil be faythfull to me and my sonne.

    2 Maccabees 9:27 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For I hope that he shalbe of sober and louing behauour, and if he folowe my deuice, he shalbe indifferent vnto you.​


    Furthermore, many who [incorrectly] proclaim that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a fulfillment of Daniel 8:9's “little horn” seem, also, to not closely consider the context or the exact order of events described therein with actual historical accounts. For instance, we read [KJB; bold red brackets added]

    Daniel 8:9 KJB - And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward [1st] the south, and [2nd] toward the east, and [3rd] toward the pleasant [land].​


    The scripture [KJB] is perfectly given in “order” [1 Corinthians 15:23; Colossians 2:5 KJB], in its proper “courses” [Judges 5:20; 1 Kings 5:14; 2 Chronicles 31:2, 8:14 KJB]. There are numerous Biblical [KJB] examples that may be given upon request.

    Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not wax “exceeding great”, by any known historically comparable standards, in any direction [in the south/Egypt, any territory he might have gained was immediately given up to Rome for fear of their entering into Battle against him, in Judaea, there were some temporary victories, but short-lived if at all, and ultimately humiliated by being utterly defeated by a band of rebellious Jews, and he ends up dying alone in great sadness in the east [at least in one book of Maccabees]], let alone do so in the proper course and order in which the “little horn” would do in [1] the south, [2] the east and [3] the pleasant land as the scripture [KJB] gives in Daniel 8:9. Instead, we read, even from the apocryphal [non-scriptural] source [Maccabees, as elsewhere], that he [Antiochus IV Epiphanes] attempted to gain territory in the [1] south, [2] pleasant land, [3] east, not being the order given in scripture [KJB]. For instance:

    [1] south [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

    1 Maccabees 1:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So when Antiochus began to be mightie in his kingdome, he went about to obtayne the lande of Egypt also, that he might haue the dominion of two realmes.​

    [2] pleasant land [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

    1 Maccabees 1:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he turned againe in the hundred fourtie and three yere, and went toward Israel,​

    [3] east [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

    1 Maccabees 3:31 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherfore he was heauy in his minde, and thought to go into Persides for to take tributes of the lande, and so to gather much money.​

    1 Maccabees 6:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Now when king Antiochus trauailed thorough ye hie countries, he heard that Elymas in Persia was a noble and plenteous citie in siluer and golde,

    1 Maccabees 6:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And that there was in it a very rich temple, where as were clothes, coate armours, and shieldes of golde, which Alexander the sonne of Philip king of Macedonia that raigned first in Grecia had left behinde him.

    1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

    1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

    1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,​

    Thus, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, fails in fulfilling the prophecy [Daniel 8:9 KJB] in its specific and plainly given order [one may also consider 2 Maccabees 5:2,5,11, 9:1-28], as well as any claim to “exceeding great”, in any direction, or by any standards.

    Looking further, in Daniel 8:23 KJB, we read of further identification, which cannot possibly be fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes IV:

    Daniel 8:23 KJB And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.​


    For [1], Antiochus IV Epiphanes, was not in the “latter time”, but in the very early midst of it, being about the 7th King [175-164 BC], among many more [unto Antiochus XIII Asiaticus, 69-64 BC, some 100 years later], see “The House of Seleucus” image:




    And [2], the “transgressors” [of the covenant and Law of God] are the Jews, in the days of Jesus, in the time of the Romans, for He said [KJB]:

    Matthew 23:32 KJB - Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.​


    Their [nation of Israel] cup of iniquity was not yet full during the era of Greece, but it was soon to be in the era of Rome [and their Temple and city to be destroyed], for their 490 years [Daniel 9, 70 weeks] was almost up [and that generation [AD 31], within 40 years later, would see it, AD 70], some sooner than others [like the Highpriests, etc]. Paul speaks about this further:

    1 Thessalonians 2:16 KJB - Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.​


    And [3], the “king of fierce countenance” is a fulfillment of the “Iron” [Daniel 2:33,40, 7:7,19,23 KJB], Roman Empire [whose standard was the 'eagle', and came from afar, from the west, and besieged them in all their lands], as it is given in scripture [KJB] itself:

    Deuteronomy 28:48 KJB - Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

    Deuteronomy 28:49 KJB - The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

    Deuteronomy 28:50 KJB - A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

    Deuteronomy 28:51 KJB - And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

    Deuteronomy 28:52 KJB - And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

    Deuteronomy 28:53 KJB - And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:​


    Also [4], the “understanding dark sentences” deals with the second major phase of the Roman element [as per Daniel 8:10 KJB], that of Papal Rome, for it means, according to scripture [KJB], to speak and understand parables, proverbs, ie religious/spiritual matters:

    Psalms 49:4 KJB - I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

    Psalms 78:2 KJB - I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

    Proverbs 1:6 KJB - To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

    Ezekiel 17:2 KJB - Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

    Matthew 13:34 KJB - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

    Mark 4:13 KJB - And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

    Mark 4:34 KJB - But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.​


    See also “mystery” and “mysteries” in Matthew 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10; Romans 11:25, 16:25; 1 Corinthians 2:7, 4:1, 13:2, 14:2, 15:51; Ephesians 1:9, 3:3,4,9, 5:32, 6:19; Colossians 1:26,27, 2:2, 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Timothy 3:9,16; Revelation 1:20, 10:7, 17:5,7.

    See also “riddle” in Numbers 12:8; Judges 14:12-19.

    See also “hard questions” in 1 Kings 10:1; 2 Chronicles 9:1.

    See also “...take up a parable … a taunting proverb...” Habakkuk 2:6;p.

    To speak in proverbs is to speak in symbols,

    John 16:29 KJB - His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.​


    Thus, as it is written,

    Proverbs 25:2 KJB - [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.​


    We are those “kings”.

    Just looking at the discrepancies of Maccabees, the apocryphal [non-Scriptural KJB] materials in regards Antiochus IV Epiphanes:

    "... The Three Deaths of Antiochus Epiphanes in three locations in as many ways:

    1) First death - Antiochus’ first death is found in 1 Maccabees 6:1-16. According to this report he is in Persia and dies while in his own bed due to grief over military losses.

    a) Location: Persia - 6:5
    b) Place: in bed - 6:8
    c) Cause: dies from a broken spirit due to military
    reversals - 6:8, 9
    d) People involved: friends - 6:10, Philip - 6:14
    e) Dies: 6:16
    f) Text: 1 Mac. 6:14 - 16​

    14 Then called he for Philip, one of his friends, whom he made ruler over his realm.

    15 And gave him the crown, and his robe, and his signet, to the end he should bring up his son Antiochus, and nourish him up for the kingdom.

    16 So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.​


    2) His second death - The “second” death of Antiochus is found in 2 Maccabees 1:14-17. In this passage he is also in Persia, but is in the temple of a false goddess Nanea during his wedding ceremony. He is supposedly assassinated by the priests of the goddess who drop huge stones down on him from above and then cut his body in pieces.

    a) Location: Persia - 1:13
    b) Place: the temple of the goddess Nanea during his
    wedding - 1:13 - 15
    c) Cause: crushed to death by stones hurled down from
    the ceiling and then dismembered - 1:16
    d) People involved: Antiochus' attendants & the priests
    of Nanea who kill him - 1:15
    e) Dies: 1:16
    f) Text: 2 Mac. 1:14 - 16​

    14 For Antiochus, as though he would marry her, came into the place, and his friends that were with him, to receive money in the name of a dowery.

    15 Which when the priests of Nanea had set forth, and he was entered with a small company into the compass of the temple, they shut the temple as soon as Antiochus was come in:

    16 and opening a privy door of the roof, they threw stones like thunderbolts, and struck down the captain, hewed them in pieces, smote off their heads, and cast them to those that were without.​


    3) His third death - The amazingly durable Antiochus dies his third and final time in 2 Maccabees 9:1-29. This time he is on his way to Jerusalem to wage war on the Jews. According to the text, God curses him and he is eaten by worms. Before he dies he repents of his evil intentions and writes a letter of peace to the Jews.

    a) Location: the road to Jerusalem - 9:3 - 7
    b) Place: on a mountain road - 9:8, 28
    c) Cause:

    1. God's curse on him - 9:5
    2. He falls from his chariot - 9:7
    3. worms eat him & his skin rots off - 9:9, 10

    d) People involved: his chariot driver, his army - 9:4, 9
    e) Dies: 9:28
    f) In this account he repents and becomes a Jew and
    then writes a letter of peace to the Jews.
    g) Text: 2 Mac. 9:28

    28 Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he entreated other men, so died in a miserable death in a strange country in the mountains. ..." - Sam Gipp's 24 Hour Seminar Notes, pages 78-80, reformatted.

    We haven't even gotten to 3 and 4 Maccabees yet, but I will leave those for now, and return to Daniel 8 & 11's history as time allows ...

    Looking at the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Kings, and Antiochus IV Epiphanes in connection to the 2,300 day/years of Daniel 8:13-14,26:

    Seleucus/Antiochus [King of the North [for a time], that is to the North of Jerusalem – Babylon [Syria]]


    [1] Seleucus I Nicator [Victor] 358 – 281 BC

    [2] Antiochus I Soter [Saviour] 281 – 261 BC [born 286 BC]

    [3] Antiochus II Theos [God] 261 – 246 BC

    [4] Seleucus II Callinicus [Beautiful Victor] 246 – 225 BC

    [5] Seleucus III Soter Ceraunus [Saviour/Thunder] 225 – 223 BC [born 243 BC]

    [6] Antiochus III The Great 222 – 187 BC [born 241 BC]​

    ...

    Ptolemy [King of the South [for a time], that is to the South of Jerusalem - Egypt]

    [1] Ptolemy I Soter I 323 – 282 BC

    [2] Ptolemy II Philadelphus 282 – 246 BC

    [3] Ptolemy III Euergetes 246 – 222 BC

    [4] Ptolemy IV Philopator 222 – 205/4 BC

    [5] Ptolemy V Epiphanes 205/4 – 180 BC

    [6] Ptolemy VI Philometor 180 – 145 BC ...”​

    Now let's eliminate the claim that the 2,300 days are mere days, rather than the many years that they are, in their proper context, as some like to rely upon commentaries of men [Jeremiah 17:5 KJB], rather than on the scripture [KJB] itself.

    Furthermore, we can compare what Antiochus IV Epiphanes [Greek king] did in the approximate 3 years [167 BC – 164 BC] in Judaea, with the specific amount of time given in the 2,300 “days” [Daniel 8:14 KJB], for the “vision” of the “evening and morning” [Daniel 8:26 KJB], [if we bypass the fact that the “vision” of the “daily” begins in the Persian empire, when the Temple itself was restored to full use] and see clearly it does not fit at all, for 2,300 [physical days] is 6 years and somewhat over 4 months [140 days]

    [some erroneously say it rather equeals equals 6 years, three months and 18 days seems to be based upon the commentary of John Gill [Calvinistic] at Daniel 8:14, and his non-scriptural two conclusions [“... from the fifteenth day of the month Cisleu, in the year 145 of the Selucidae ...” and/or “... others begin from the defection of the people from the pure religion by Menelaus, Anno 141 …”, and thus which will peeople who cite John Calvin as authority in this subscribe to specifically, so we may test it historically?], yet scripturally [KJB] and especially in prophecy, a month is 30 days, and a year 360 days, [both demonstrable upon request]].

    30 days = 1 month, 12 months [360 days] = 1 year:

    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    ---------------
    2160 days = 6 years

    2300 – 2160 = 140 days left

    30 days = 1 month
    30 days = 1 month
    30 days = 1 month
    30 days = 1 month
    ----------------------
    120 days = 4 months

    140 – 120 = 20 days left.​


    Thus even when taken to be normal days as incorrectly supposed, physically, 6 years, 4 months and 20 days, according to the scriptural 30 day month and 360 day year. Yet Daniel 8 is prophecy, yes?, and would therefore not go by the standard solar year of 365.25 of today, but would indeed follow the day for a year principle found through scripture [Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6 KJB, see connection in Daniel 9, the prayer]?

    https://secretsunsealed.org/content/PDF_downloads/20-Reasons-To-Apply-The-Year-Day-Principle.pdf

    Others cite the commentary of “Albert Barnes” as authority, who himself says in his notes [Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, Daniel 8:14], cites Josephus, the turncoat to the Jews, who never accepted Jesus Christ that history is aware of:

    “... The time mentioned by Josephus is three years exactly from the time when “their Divine worship was fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use,” until the time when the lamps were lighted again, and the worship restored, for he says that the one event happened precisely three years after the other, on the same day of the month - Ant. b. xii. ch. vii. Section 6. In his Jewish Wars, however, b. i. ch. i. Section 1, he says that Antiochus “spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months.” ...”​


    Where is the supposed 6 years +, even by a source they cite [like Albert Barnes, etc]? For instance:

    “... The 2,300-day prophecy witnessed an amazing fulfillment during the terrifying reign of Antiochus. According to the Jewish calendar, the 2300 days works out to be six years, three months, and 18 days. This is the time period in which Antiochus took the daily sacrifices away, and at the end of the 2300 days, was eventually defeated. ...”​


    Such persons say “2300” but, even given their own timing [borrowed from John Gill or even Barnes] , “... six years, three months, and 18 days ...” does not fit specifically with any given historical timeframe in regards Antiochus IV Epiphanes, in any given historical source [and John Gill's commentary doesn't help either, as he speculates without evidence in the last portion of the time, and does not use scripture to explain the scripture at this point, and does not follow the scriptural 30 day months, 360 day years].

    Any may look for themselves, and I will be awaiting for such a source to be given in demonstration, and to see the work shown in the time.

    Finally the word “eventually”, in that statement, is very telling also, for it is clear that they presently have a sliding time scale/events and not a precise one. The 2,300 evening/mornings (days) of Daniel 8:13-14,26; etc are 2,300 years as the context declares, and also as many popular commentary (for those that are into those things).

  13. #28

    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Antiochus IV desecrated the temple in Jerusalem in 167 BC, by setting up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings, as told in I Maccabees 1:54-55: “Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt-offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets.” New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)

    This abomination triggered the Maccabean Revolt by Judas Maccabeus and the Hasmoneans. They were eventually victorious and cleansed the temple. “Early in the morning on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, which is the month of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-eighth year, they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt-offering that they had built.” (I Mac. 4:52-53, NRSVA).

    The 148th year subtract the 145th year makes something around 3 years.

    This victory and cleansing of the temple is still commemorated by Jews today by the annual Festival of Hanukkah.

    The “evenings and mornings” mentioned in Daniel are an obvious reference to the twice daily sacrifices in the temple. So the 2,300 daily sacrifices actually represented 1,150 days—not 2,300 days—and certainly not the 2,300 years.

    The number of days between Chislev 15, 145 and Chislev 25, 148 is about three days off the 1,150 days (if memory serves), but in those early times a day was inserted in the calendar at irregular intervals at the command of the High Priest to correct the calendar drift, so it is at least possible that the three days were inserted in those three plus years to make exactly 1,150 days.

  14. #29
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    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyGospelShoes View Post
    DurbanDude said, "I dont agree with you ..."

    My reply, Then you have not agreed with the scripture, not with me.

    Do a study on "stand up", "arise", "lift up", in connection with God standing, as already given you, Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25. It is the finality of mercy's probation, and the stepping in of judgment.

    Psa_3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
    Psa_7:6 Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.
    Psa_9:19 Arise, O LORD; let not man prevail: let the heathen be judged in thy sight.
    Psa_10:12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.
    Psa_12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
    Psa_17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:
    Psa_44:23 Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever.
    Psa_44:26 Arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercies' sake.
    Psa_68:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David. Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
    Psa_74:22 Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily.
    Psa_82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
    Psa_102:13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
    Psa_132:8 Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength.

    Psa_94:2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud.

    Amo_9:1 I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

    Act_7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    Act_7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    Sure the phrase "let God arise" denotes God's intervention.

    But that wording gives a completely different impression than Acts 7:56 " I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

    To conclude that the stoning of Stephen is the end of the great 490 year period just because Jesus was seen standing, not sitting is a flimsy basis.


    Have you any evidence that this actually occurred in the autumn of 34 AD?

    The ending /conclusion to the 490 year period is future because there is no evidence of an historical event in 34 AD which is a fitting conclusion to the Jewish 490 year timeline.
    Last edited by DurbanDude; Sep 27th 2019 at 06:21 AM.

  15. #30

    Re: A new chiastic method of deciphering the 70 weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    Antiochus IV desecrated the temple in Jerusalem in 167 BC, by setting up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings, as told in I Maccabees 1:54-55: “Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt-offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets.” New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)

    This abomination triggered the Maccabean Revolt by Judas Maccabeus and the Hasmoneans. They were eventually victorious and cleansed the temple. “Early in the morning on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, which is the month of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-eighth year, they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt-offering that they had built.” (I Mac. 4:52-53, NRSVA).

    The 148th year subtract the 145th year makes something around 3 years.

    This victory and cleansing of the temple is still commemorated by Jews today by the annual Festival of Hanukkah.

    The “evenings and mornings” mentioned in Daniel are an obvious reference to the twice daily sacrifices in the temple. So the 2,300 daily sacrifices actually represented 1,150 days—not 2,300 days—and certainly not the 2,300 years.

    The number of days between Chislev 15, 145 and Chislev 25, 148 is about three days off the 1,150 days (if memory serves), but in those early times a day was inserted in the calendar at irregular intervals at the command of the High Priest to correct the calendar drift, so it is at least possible that the three days were inserted in those three plus years to make exactly 1,150 days.
    A correction to the above. The three years and ten days that the sacrifices halted is exactly 60 days short of 1,150. As with the Jewish calendar in those days, an extra month is inserted to correct calendar drift. In the three years it is possible to account for two months or 60 days being inserted at irregular times to bring the count to exactly 1,150 days.

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