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Thread: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

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    Post Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    “These nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt,” declares the Lord, “and will make it desolate forever. I will bring on that land all the things I have spoken against it, all that are written in this book and prophesied by Jeremiah against all the nations. They themselves will be enslaved by many nations and great kings; I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands.” (Jeremiah 25:11-14)
    A few years after the Assyrian Empire collapsed, an extraordinary prediction was made by the prophet Jeremiah. He said that the incoming empire of Babylon would last seventy years then it too would end. His word came true to the very year! Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians in October 539 BC, seventy years after the demise of Assyria in 608 BC. (Nineveh was lost in 612 BC but Assyria's last stand was the city of Harran four years later.)

    That is not all. A dual fulfilment aspect to the prophecy had Babylon's duration as described, but also had Jerusalem lying desolate for a concurrent 70 years. Now, the two predictions were offset from each other because Babylon's start was 608 BC, whereas the siege of Jerusalem started in December 589 BC. So, there are actually two counts of seventy, the second count lasting until 520 BC when Darius endorsed a decree to commence the rebuilding of the temple.
    His decree was made Oct/Nov 520 BC, and on December 18th, Haggai marked it as the end of Jerusalem's punishment.
    "The vine, the fig tree, the pomegranate, and the olive tree have yielded nothing, but from this day on I will bless you.” (Haggai 2:19)
    When we count from the beginning of the siege to Darius's decree, once again there are seventy years. Unfortunately, some commentators have added up sixty-nine years, describing the fulfilment as, “approximate.” It is unfortunate because “near enough” is not the way God works. Others have construed 69 solar years to mean 70 ‘prophetic’ years of 360 days, but alternative calendars are not needed either.

    Counting time in the Bible is inclusive. If the 1st year only consists of a few months before the next New Year, it is still deemed to be the 1st year. Likewise, the last year is a ‘year.’ In other words, part-years are always treated as full years when reckoned on the old Hebrew calendar, and this is demonstrated on numerous occasions throughout the Bible. Such is the case here and it is indeed seventy years.

    One of the reasons ‘Jeremiahs 70 years’ is not often quoted as an accurate example of predictive prophecy is because its details are spread over 4 or 5 different references and historical events. In the following diagram I have bought them together so that its extraordinary accuracy can be appreciated.

    Cyber

    Attachment 12370
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    I agree with Carl Olof Jonsson.

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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    Can't say I heard that name before. Where does he place the 70 years?

    Incidentally, my attachment seems to have fallen off the opening post, so here it is again. Notice how there were actually two counts of seventy.

    .


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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Shanks View Post
    I agree with Carl Olof Jonsson.
    I've not delved into quite that much detail, and never paid much mind to this idea of a "dual 70 year period." I just see the time of Babylon's reign over Jerusalem, and the time of Jerusalem's punishment, as being basically the same period of time. But it's all fascinating. Evidence for a God who controls and predicts history commands the need for our faith, particularly when history is being governed on the basis of righteous behavior.

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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    A few years after the Assyrian Empire collapsed, an extraordinary prediction was made by the prophet Jeremiah. He said that the incoming empire of Babylon would last seventy years then it too would end. His word came true to the very year! Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians in October 539 BC, seventy years after the demise of Assyria in 608 BC. (Nineveh was lost in 612 BC but Assyria's last stand was the city of Harran four years later.)

    That is not all. A dual fulfilment aspect to the prophecy had Babylon's duration as described, but also had Jerusalem lying desolate for a concurrent 70 years. Now, the two predictions were offset from each other because Babylon's start was 608 BC, whereas the siege of Jerusalem started in December 589 BC. So, there are actually two counts of seventy, the second count lasting until 520 BC when Darius endorsed a decree to commence the rebuilding of the temple.
    His decree was made Oct/Nov 520 BC, and on December 18th, Haggai marked it as the end of Jerusalem's punishment.


    When we count from the beginning of the siege to Darius's decree, once again there are seventy years. Unfortunately, some commentators have added up sixty-nine years, describing the fulfilment as, “approximate.” It is unfortunate because “near enough” is not the way God works. Others have construed 69 solar years to mean 70 ‘prophetic’ years of 360 days, but alternative calendars are not needed either.

    Counting time in the Bible is inclusive. If the 1st year only consists of a few months before the next New Year, it is still deemed to be the 1st year. Likewise, the last year is a ‘year.’ In other words, part-years are always treated as full years when reckoned on the old Hebrew calendar, and this is demonstrated on numerous occasions throughout the Bible. Such is the case here and it is indeed seventy years.

    One of the reasons ‘Jeremiahs 70 years’ is not often quoted as an accurate example of predictive prophecy is because its details are spread over 4 or 5 different references and historical events. In the following diagram I have bought them together so that its extraordinary accuracy can be appreciated.

    Cyber

    Attachment 12370
    It is good to understand how you get to your fulfillment.

    There is a problem though in your claim which makes Daniel out to be an idiot.
    You claim that the 70 years are over in 539 BC, however Daniel didn't believe it was over yet - but simply over SOON:
    Dan 9:1* In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans—*
    Dan 9:2* in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

    Now the simple question is which prophecy of Jeremiah was Daniel perceiving? Was there another prophecy about 70 years in Jeremiah?
    Jer 25:1* The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah, in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah (that was the first year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon)...
    Jer 25:8* “Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words,*
    Jer 25:9* behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.*
    Jer 25:10* Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp.*
    Jer 25:11* This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

    Now "these nations" is specifically including Judah - it is not a "dual" fulfillment but a specific one for Judah.
    When then did Nebuchadnezzar come against Judah the first time?

    Jehoiakim was king when Nebuchadnezzar first came. Nebuchadnezzar was King 3 years after Jehoiakim. As 2 Kings 12 states it was the 8th year of King Nebuchadnezzar's reign when Jehoiachin was deposed (after 3 months).
    So the question follows - when was Jehoiachin deposed?
    Well to confirm this we have 2 Kings 25:8 which tells us that Jerusalem was taken in King Nebuchadnezzar's reign.
    So if Jerusalem fell in 587 BC according to what you put above, (I think 586 BC), then this is King Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year, which would mean 2 Kings has King Neb starting his reign in 606 BC (I think 605 BC). This is crucial as Jeremiah 25 has King Nebuchadnezzar as King and being the one to start this 70 years.
    Moreover 19 years is the length of time from when Jehoiakim came under King Nebuchadnezzar's control Which is also what Daniel 1 states:
    Dan 1:1* In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it.*

    This is when Daniel was taken captive. So Daniel KNEW exactly when the 70 years began - and it was 605 BC.

    How then to reconcile 605 BC with 70 years?

    This again is where Daniel is helpful. You see according to Daniel even when Cyrus conquered Babylonia, there was still a king of Babylon (Darius the Mede) and no decree by Cyrus was made at that time. Instead Daniel served under Darius - hence Daniel's understanding that the 70 years were almost over, in 539 BC.
    I believe the decree was made in 536 BC - just as told to Daniel in prophecy by the angel in Daniel 9.
    Now the temple is not from when Jerusalem was besieged, but from when it was destroyed. This is for the restoration.
    Now it is true Haggai received His vision in the 2nd year of Darius, yet it was not at the moment that Haggai received the vision that this was true as on that day what they did was still defiled.
    Instead it speaks of the foundation of the temple, which was started in the 2nd month of the 2nd year but was completed in the 6th year of Darius (Ezra 6:15)
    The temple itself then was dedicated on the 3 day of the 1st month of 516 BC. This was after 70 years from the 7th day of the 5th month when it was destroyed (2 Kings 25:8)

    It is not to the EXACT day - scripture tells us when this is the case. However it was the correct year. 586 BC to 517 BC is 70 years, and the start of the next year 516 BC the temple was dedicated and the 70 years were over.

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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Shanks View Post
    I agree with Carl Olof Jonsson.
    Read his book online.
    He gets the 605 BC start date, but then destroys his own argument by making out it isn't an exact 70 years because 605 to 539 BC isn't 70 years.
    The problem is that 605 which is the year of the start (and cannot be prior to this as King Nebuchadnezzar is directly mentioned) to 539 is 66 years.
    He had thrown down the gauntlet to the JWs to explain how it could be later.
    Not being a JW I won't answer for them, but rather for myself as a Christian.
    I noted this in my answer to Cyberseeker.
    The answer is simply that though Cyrus had defeated Babylonia, Baylon was simply given a new King - Darius the Mede, but the ruling continued as it had before.
    Note in Daniel 6 Darius has 120 satrapies with 3 administrators ruling the Babylonian Kingdom, this then speaks of the lands which Babylon had ruled over, which Cyrus hadn't conquered except through conquering Babylon. So Babylon continued as the place of ruling over the nations which Nebuchadnezzar had conquered, including Judah.
    So the 70 years didn't end with Cyrus' conquest. It ended when Darius the Mede stopped being king (presumably at his death) when Cyrus then incorporated Babylonia into the rest of his empire. This then seems to have been 536 BC.

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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk
    I've not delved into quite that much detail, and never paid much mind to this idea of a "dual 70 year period." I just see the time of Babylon's reign over Jerusalem, and the time of Jerusalem's punishment, as being basically the same period of time.
    Most commentators conflate the two prophecies and then have problems finding the dates. As the chart shows, Jer. 25: 8-14 refers to Babylon. Babylon did indeed replace Assyria, then got supplanted by Persia 70 years later.

    However, the purpose of 70 years, in Judah’s case, was to rest the land from over-cultivation. (2 Chron. 36:21) The end of its long ‘rest’ is indicated by Haggai when he exclaims, "The vine, the fig tree, the pomegranate, and the olive tree have yielded nothing, but from this day on (520 BC) I will bless you.” (Haggai 2:19)

    Now, the start of Judah’s 70-year span was 589 BC when its inhabitants fled their lands before the invading armies of Babylon. Actually, the last unkept Sabbath year was immediately preceding the invasion (Jer. 34:8-14) so we deduce the 70 ‘catch-up’ years began after that.

    That is why I say, the two 70 year-spans are offset from each other. Judah’s 70 years were 589 BC to 520 BC. Please study the chart.
    "Your name and renown
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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    Nice chart.

    It would be good to have Bardiya (ie Smerdis, otherwise called Gaumata) in between Cambyses II and Darius I else we might not remember who the three kings are in Daniel 11:2.

    The final end of the Assyrian Empire might be the failure to recapture Harran from the Babylonians by the Assyrians, rather than the (earlier) fall of Harran.

    Carl Olof Jonsson:-

    A 27 page (page 90-117, (in the second edition)) analysis of the 70 years of Babylonian supremacy can be found in the remarkable book "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" by Carl Olof Jonsson. Jonsson had been a Jehovah's Witness but began his own research into the Word of God and history and presented his findings to the Watchtower, which lead to his eventual disfellowship and shunning by "The Guardians" of "The Truth". The obvious amount of research behind the book is phenomenal.

    From the point of view of Babylonian supremacy the period begins with the destruction of the Assyrian Empire and ends with Cyrus's army entering Babylon 539 BC. (His year for the end of the Assyrians is 609 BC.)

    The end of Assyria has a number of events – Ninevah destroyed 612 BC , then the new capital Harran captured either late 610 BC or early 609 BC. Finally an attempt is made by Ashur-uballit to recapture Harran with help from Pharaoh Necho, which fails. And this failure marks the beginning of Babylonian supremacy, (though not over Judaea because Egypt controls it until after the battle of Carchemish 605 BC. After this (still in 605 BC) Nebuchadnezzar lays siege to Jerusalem and is bought off with some treasures and some captives, which negotiation he may have instigated knowing he has to rush back to Babylon to make sure of his crown since his father has died).

    There is too much to summarise and I recommend you read the book.

    Good news!! ..... If you want to read it the book, “The Gentile Times Reconsidered” in its fourth edition, is free online here:
    https://www.watchtowerlies.com/linke...considered.pdf

    Turn to chapter 5 - The Seventy Years for Babylon. page 191 on the page, page 199 in the pdf. Enjoy.

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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Shanks

    There is too much to summarise and I recommend you read the book.
    Looks good. There must have been a lot of grumpy J.Dubs when he published that!

    Ill read more.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Most commentators conflate the two prophecies and then have problems finding the dates. As the chart shows, Jer. 25: 8-14 refers to Babylon. Babylon did indeed replace Assyria, then got supplanted by Persia 70 years later.

    However, the purpose of 70 years, in Judah’s case, was to rest the land from over-cultivation. (2 Chron. 36:21) The end of its long ‘rest’ is indicated by Haggai when he exclaims, "The vine, the fig tree, the pomegranate, and the olive tree have yielded nothing, but from this day on (520 BC) I will bless you.” (Haggai 2:19)

    Now, the start of Judah’s 70-year span was 589 BC when its inhabitants fled their lands before the invading armies of Babylon. Actually, the last unkept Sabbath year was immediately preceding the invasion (Jer. 34:8-14) so we deduce the 70 ‘catch-up’ years began after that.

    That is why I say, the two 70 year-spans are offset from each other. Judah’s 70 years were 589 BC to 520 BC. Please study the chart.
    Before I spend time studying the chart, let me ask you: Have you considered that there is *no prophecy* of 70 years for Babylon? The way it is worded, the 70 years apply to Israel's punishment, and not to Babylon's Reign.

    Babylon isn't being punished for 70 years--Israel is! That means, Babylon will be punished following the period of Israel's punishment. And the punishment period of 70 years applies to Israel, and not to Babylon. It is only said that Babylon is punished *after* the 70 years period of punishment for Israel. Or, am I wrong?

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    Re: Jeremiahs Prophecy concerning Babylon and the 70 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk
    Before I spend time studying the chart, let me ask you: Have you considered that there is *no prophecy* of 70 years for Babylon? The way it is worded, the 70 years apply to Israel's punishment, and not to Babylon's Reign.
    Jeremiah 25:12 says, “When the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt,” declares the Lord,” (Jer. 25:12) The end-date of this prediction came in 539 BC. Now, if we say that the Jewish punishment for ignoring their Sabbath years runs concurrently with the above mentioned 70, then we must find Judah, during the same period, desolated. It wasn't. And this is the mistake Jehovah's Witness make, gerrymandering their chronology to say that Jerusalem was burned in 607 BC.

    However, Jerusalem (and the outlying countryside) was not desolated until the 3rd invasion of Judah in 589 BC. That is why I say, there are 2 aspects to the prophecy of Jeremiah’s 70 years. They appear to me to be offset by 20 years.
    "Your name and renown
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