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Thread: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

  1. #16
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    At the GWT all are resurrected and judged both the believer and ungodly.
    Yes, that simple..... it can be clearly shown that there is one judgment to come..., and today is the day to get saved....or perish in his righteous judgment.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Yes, that simple..... it can be clearly shown that there is one judgment to come..., and today is the day to get saved....or perish in his righteous judgment.
    Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    1....And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God..and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    2....And the sea gave up the dead which were in it....and they were judged every man according to their works.

    3....and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them....and they were judged every man according to their works.


    Since you claim this is a matter of simplicity, why don't you go ahead and explain to us which group of the dead the following will be in at that judgment.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    So which group of the dead in Rev 20 will these who are still alive come forth from? 1, 2, or 3?

    BTW, you do realize one can't be both dead and alive at the same time, right?

  3. #18
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post

    BTW, you do realize one can't be both dead and alive at the same time, right?
    There is a twinkling of an eye separating the two.
    Fact of the matter is Jesus is coming to render to everyman....and his reward is also with him.

    The day/ moment , we receive our reward ( glorification ) is also the day / moment, the rejecters of the gospel are Eternally separated ( 2thess 1 )....and people are only eternally separated once the book of life is finally opened for all creation to see . The whole of creation waits in eager expectation for all the redeemed to be revealed.... and all see it at the GWT... the great and glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ...who is ready right now to righteously judge the living AND the dead.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    There is a twinkling of an eye separating the two.
    Fact of the matter is Jesus is coming to render to everyman....and his reward is also with him.

    The day/ moment , we receive our reward ( glorification ) is also the day / moment, the rejecters of the gospel are Eternally separated ( 2thess 1 )....and people are only eternally separated once the book of life is finally opened for all creation to see . The whole of creation waits in eager expectation for all the redeemed to be revealed.... and all see it at the GWT... the great and glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ...who is ready right now to righteously judge the living AND the dead.
    In this context I'm referring to physical, since it's obvious those in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are still physically alive when the Lord returns, therefore not physically dead instead. Obviously, everyone present at the great white throne judgment phyically died at some point. The only way those of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 can be at this judgment as well, they would also need to have had physically died at some point. Totally impossible if one believes the text in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Clearly they become immortal at this point, and for certain don't physically die instead.

    It's not a discrace for one to admit that their interpretation of something has been debunked. So why don't you just admit it then? Otherwise you might have to come up with something silly to try and save face. Such as these alive when Christ returns, Christ kills them, then resurrects them from the dead so that they too can be among the dead at the GWTJ.

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Clearly they become immortal at this point, and for certain don't physically die instead.
    They do die in that twinkling of an eye ( very briefly ) ....as it appointed for ALL men to die once then judgment. Do you remember reading this somewhere???

    It's not a discrace for one to admit that their interpretation of something has been debunked. So why don't you just admit it then? Otherwise you might have to come up with something silly to try and save face. Such as these alive when Christ returns, Christ kills them, then resurrects them from the dead so that they too can be among the dead at the GWTJ.

    Good grief.

    We are changed from mortal to immortal...redemption of the body. The old is dead , rejoice the new hath come.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    1....And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God..and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    2....And the sea gave up the dead which were in it....and they were judged every man according to their works.

    3....and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them....and they were judged every man according to their works.


    Since you claim this is a matter of simplicity, why don't you go ahead and explain to us which group of the dead the following will be in at that judgment.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    So which group of the dead in Rev 20 will these who are still alive come forth from? 1, 2, or 3?

    BTW, you do realize one can't be both dead and alive at the same time, right?
    When will you see that ALIVE is from the grave.........

    The dead resurrected become alive.

    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    The dead which rise are (become) those which are alive.....

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    They do die in that twinkling of an eye ( very briefly ) ....as it appointed for ALL men to die once then judgment. Do you remember reading this somewhere???




    Good grief.

    We are changed from mortal to immortal...redemption of the body. The old is dead , rejoice the new hath come.


    You're not grasping what I'm getting at, are you? Those at the GWTJ are only meaning the rest of the dead as per Rev 20:5...But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

    Those still alive when Christ returns could not possibly also be among the rest of the dead mentioned in Rev 20:5. To be part of that group requires one has to be physically dead first, thus not alive during the thousand years. Even per your take on this thousand years, clearly those alive when Christ returns would have been alive during the thousand years, and not dead instead. Rev 20 is as clear as clear can be, only the dead who had physically died are at that judgment, and not the living who have never died, as well, and certainly not anyone who has already put on immortality at the last trump..

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    When will you see that ALIVE is from the grave.........

    The dead resurrected become alive.

    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    The dead which rise are (become) those which are alive.....
    You never convinced me in the past with this illogical reasoning here, nor are you convincing me now. You apparently fail to grasp what 'first' means in that passage. Two groups in that passage, one group who has literally physically died, and that they rise first. The other group being those who have never died physically and are still alive when Christ returns. They meet the Lord in the air after the dead in Christ have risen first. And all of this obviously occurring before a great white throne judgment has even taken place.

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    They do die in that twinkling of an eye ( very briefly ) ....as it appointed for ALL men to die once then judgment. Do you remember reading this somewhere???



    In your opinion then, when they allegedly die in this twinkling of an eye, in this same twinkling of an eye the GWTJ then takes place? IOW just ignore any events in Rev 19 where Christ is seen confronting the beast and it's armies once He has returned, in favor of this twinkling of an eye explains everything.

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    Clearly meaning once Christ has physically returned. What does that make these at this point? The rest of the dead, obviously. And what does the text indicate about the rest of the dead? That they are not alive during the thousand years. If we place the thousand years in this age before Christ has returned, as Amils do, these in Revelation 19:21 would have been alive during the thousand years, which then contradicts Rev 20:5 of course.

  11. #26
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You're not grasping what I'm getting at, are you?

    You do not seem to understand my answer to you.

    I am saying that the living and the dead will be impacted simultaneously ...., supernaturally , by the only coming and appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Jesus will then separate his own from all nations, and we will be like him when we see him as he is....glorified in Body. The impact of the second coming of Christ has an devastating effect on those who refused the message of the gospel in this era of grace ,leading to salvation.... and they will all perish. Matt 25 :31 --
    .




    .
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    You do not seem to understand my answer to you.

    I am saying that the living and the dead will be impacted simultaneously ...., supernaturally , by the only coming and appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Jesus will then separate his own from all nations, and we will be like him when we see him as he is....glorified in Body. The impact of the second coming of Christ has an devastating effect on those who refused the message of the gospel in this era of grace ,leading to salvation.... and they will all perish. Matt 25 :31 --
    .




    .
    I don't necessarily have an issue with this I don't think. What I have an issue with is how the GWTJ could possibly include all of mankind, including those that had already put on immorality before this judgment has taken place. Why can't you give a direct answer to the question I provided earlier? You seem to be skirting around it instead.

    That question once again...

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post

    1....And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God..and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    2....And the sea gave up the dead which were in it....and they were judged every man according to their works.

    3....and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them....and they were judged every man according to their works.


    Since you claim this is a matter of simplicity, why don't you go ahead and explain to us which group of the dead the following will be in at that judgment.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    So which group of the dead in Rev 20 will these who are still alive come forth from? 1, 2, or 3?

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You never convinced me in the past with this illogical reasoning here, nor are you convincing me now. You apparently fail to grasp what 'first' means in that passage. Two groups in that passage, one group who has literally physically died, and that they rise first. The other group being those who have never died physically and are still alive when Christ returns. They meet the Lord in the air after the dead in Christ have risen first. And all of this obviously occurring before a great white throne judgment has even taken place.
    Two additional supports for my view.

    1. It is appointed that all men die thus no post rapture.
    2. The bible states that all who do not receive mark of the beast are killed by the beast. Thus there are no supposed alive believers on earth when Christ returns

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Daniel 12:13*But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


    So you take this to mean....But go thou thy way till the end OF THE THOUSAND YEARS be, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days AT THE END OF THE THOUSAND YEARS?

    I'm guessing Amils would actually agree with this. But at least it makes sense per their view, not that I'm agreeing with their view. I don't see it making sense with Premil though, if at the end of the days is not meaning the end of this age, but is meaning the end of the still to come future 1000 years instead.
    The end of days is directly connected in Dan 12 to those who are resurrected for judgement - notice some are resurrected to shame - verse 1 & 2 clarify this.
    So contextually it speaks of the last day.
    This is the same day Martha was thinking of in John 11:24.

    Further by what is someone resurrected prior to the GWToJ?
    The answer is those who are born again. Now was John the Baptist born again? If you answer no then neither was Daniel.
    John the Baptist was less than the least of those in the Kingdom of Heaven.
    As premil I have no issues with Daniel being resurrected on the last day, which is the Judgement Day.

  15. #30

    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    I see the phrase "the last day" to not be referring to a 24-hr day, but to the "sabbatismos" of Hebrews 4:8-9 [i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (when Jesus comes to judge [governance/ruling also] and to reign)], the 7th millennium [7th "day," or, the "third day" of Hosea 5:15-6:3's perspective]. Martha well knew of that resurrection, so did Job. [Job 19:25-27]

    And I'm convinced that the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens" is what we call the [promised and prophesied earthly] Millennial Kingdom [aka "the wedding feast/supper" also (on the earth)], Matt11:11 (re: John the Baptist, there); see also John 3:28-29: "the friend of the Bridegroom" isn't going to miss out on the "festivities".

    All who enter that time period [MK] are called "BLESSED": Rev19:9, Dan12:12; Matt25:31-34; Luk12:36,37,38,40,43; Matt24:44-46; Matt5:3,10; Rev16:15; [Mark 11:10]; etc.

    ["God BLESSED the seventh day, and sanctified it..."]

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