Page 11 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011
Results 151 to 161 of 161

Thread: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

  1. #151
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    8,117
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Revelation 13:10
    10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

    I might add that Nero killed himself with a sword. I also think that the patience of the saints was that the message of Revelation was telling the church that this all was going to happen but be patient because it will end and the church would prevail.
    Except Nero didn't kill Christians with the sword.
    He used wild beasts or crucified them.

  2. #152
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    3,768
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Except Nero didn't kill Christians with the sword.
    He used wild beasts or crucified them.
    You surprise me here I really mean this but I know you are much smarter than this.

    It isn't that literal it means that people who kill will be killed. Not every person who kills a person with a sword mentioned in this verse will die by the sword.

    I'm sure Nero did kill some Christians by the sword and we also know that he also burned Christians alive by hanging them from street lights to illuminate the streets around Rome. The point is that what you do will come back to you.

    I'm sure that you don't think that it is only the Christians that are beheaded are the only ones to come to life as mentioned in Revelation chapter 20. If one christian was beheaded at the same time that another Christian was burned to death would they both not come back to life and reign because they died for Christ?

  3. #153
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    7,512

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I have in the past but changed my view I use to believe that Revelation was all future.

    I also believe that the 10 horns are 10 demon kings over nations that give their authority to the beast to make his kingdom an empire (Daniel chapter 10 states that demons are kings and princes over nations) Remember that satan gives this beast his throne and great authority for a purpose and that beast destroys Babylon the great. Now if Babylon the great is just another evil object or world religion why would satan want to destroy it? Because it must mean something to God just like Israel does.
    These are not critical points for me personally. I don't see the 10 horns as demon spirits, but rather, as 10 kings, or 10 nations. Rome is the 4th empire, and it is to be inherited by 10 kingdoms, or 10 nations. Horns would refer to military power, and not to angels, although I'm not sure about that.

    I don't see much problem over whether Satan's kingdom is divided with itself. I have seen evil countries fight other evil countries, eg in the 2nd WW when evil Germany fought evil Russia. When countries vie for power, evil countries do not spare other countries simply because they also are evil!

    At any rate, I see Babylon as a symbolic, cryptic reference to the city of Rome. John could not openly divulge that he was speaking judgmentally about a country that currently held him a prisoner! Speaking of Rome as "Babylon" would refer his readers back to Dan 7, where Babylon is the 1st great power among four great powers, with the 4th great power being Rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox
    I think AE comes out of the 4th empire not the 3rd and he is not the antichrist but a antichrist. If he comes out of the 3rd empire then why is there no mention of what the 3rd beast does to Jerusalem or Gods people in Daniel 7 but it does with the 4th beast?
    I just don't see Dan 7 as speaking of AE at all! Rather, all four beasts are mentioned, with particular mention of the fourth beast, because this particular prophecy is eschatological, and has to do with the coming Kingdom of God.

    On the other hand, Dan 8 specifically addresses what we know to be the third empire. And it is out of this third empire that AE emerges. The 1st empire we know to be Babylon, because in an earlier vision, Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, we learn that Babylon has the "head of gold."

    So in Dan 7 the four beasts would be Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. But in Dan 8 we are told about Persia and Greece, and it is out of Greece, the 3rd empire, that AE emerges.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox
    Also why is the 4th beast in Daniel 7 only mentioned to have terrifying teeth and bronze claws but the beast in Revelation is described as resembling a leopard with feet of a bear and a mouth as a lion?
    The differences could be argued for commonality as much as it can be used to argue for different beasts. The 4th Beast of Dan 7 was in effect the accumulation of the previous 3 Beasts. And the beasts were described as lion, bear, and leopard. And the Beast in Rev 13 appears with the same 3 figures. It appears to be the 4th Beast, particularly with an eye to its obtaining 10 kings later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox
    Daniels 4th beast has a total of 11 horns but Revelations beast only has 10 horns but also has an extra 7 heads. They are quite different.
    Again, I don't find this difference to be overly significant. The fact the 11th horn is not there may be due to the fact this horn had already been identified in Rev 13. The "extra 7 heads" may not be "extra" at all, since the defeat of 3 of the 10 horns would result in 10 nations and 7 leaders. The other 3 leaders had been eliminated.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox
    Both of these beast also have a purpose and are used by God to judge Israel.

    I also believe that the almost fatal wound was the turmoil Rome suffered after Nero's death when it was ravaged by civil war and went through the year of 4 Caesars and almost was no more the Roman historian Taticus states that it was the worst time for Rome.
    Yes, I've entertained the idea that the 7 kings were 7 actual Roman Caesars after Julius Caesar, leading up to Nero. I don't hold that position now, although I think it's a perfectly legitimate hypothesis. The only thing that set me back on this is the consensus opinion that John wrote this *after* the Fall of Jerusalem, which would be *after* Nero's death. But I'm not sure how clear any of this is?

    I suppose my main point here is not whether I'm right or wrong on any of these things. The point is that there are possible alternative explanations to your complaints about a future scenario.

    I don't think Antiochus 4 can at any rate be an "antichrist," since Christ hadn't come yet. He was undoubtedly a prototype, or foreshadowing, of the Antichrist. But he wasn't even *an* antichrist! He was, I believe, the forerunner of the Roman desolation of 70 AD.

    And 70 AD was hardly THE Antichrist, since Jesus said that 70 AD was but the *beginning* of a long age of Jewish tribulation. The Antichrist comes, I believe, at the end of that long period of Tribulation, when Rome has been succeeded by a bloc of 10 nations, overseen by the Antichrist.

    As to when the Beast suffers a "fatal wound," I'm still open on that. It does seem to me, presently, that Rome was to be viewed exclusively as an ancient power or limited duration. And that was true. Rome fell in 476 AD.

    But we are told that later, Rome somehow assumes the form of 10 kings. That also seems to be coming true, since the tradition of the 4th Empire never went away, but has taken the form of European nations. We do not yet have a set of 10 specific nations, but obviously, that possible scenario would not be that far-fetched. In fact, it may even look likely?

  4. #154
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    8,117
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    You surprise me here I really mean this but I know you are much smarter than this.

    It isn't that literal it means that people who kill will be killed. Not every person who kills a person with a sword mentioned in this verse will die by the sword.

    I'm sure Nero did kill some Christians by the sword and we also know that he also burned Christians alive by hanging them from street lights to illuminate the streets around Rome. The point is that what you do will come back to you.

    I'm sure that you don't think that it is only the Christians that are beheaded are the only ones to come to life as mentioned in Revelation chapter 20. If one christian was beheaded at the same time that another Christian was burned to death would they both not come back to life and reign because they died for Christ?
    You were the one making the connection of Nero dying by the sword.
    Also is suicide the same as being killed?
    I see no connection myself and highlighted if you want to be literal it doesn't work.

  5. #155
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    5,041
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    See my post #142 & #146
    Nero is not the antichrist.

  6. #156

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    The Abomination of Desolation

    Matthew 24:15 KJV
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

    A desolation is an evil or imperfect spiritual work. It is the opposite of prosperity. A desolation is lesser than an abomination.

    An abomination is a manifested or established work of an idol. Abominations constitute the opposite of both the eternity and immortality of God. An abomination is greater than a desolation. Corruption of life and mortality are examples of abomination.

    When that which was earlier a desolation (an evil or imperfect spiritual work) standing in a holy place is made greater to become an abomination (a manifested or established work of an idol) standing in a holy place, then the abomination of desolation stands in a holy place.

    The phrase "abomination of desolation" simply means an abomination made from a desolation.

    The abomination of desolation does not come before the end, but comes after the end. Matthew 24:14 KJV tells us when the end comes:
    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  7. #157
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    4,817
    Blog Entries
    34

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    The Abomination of Desolation

    Matthew 24:15 KJV
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

    A desolation is an evil or imperfect spiritual work. It is the opposite of prosperity. A desolation is lesser than an abomination.

    An abomination is a manifested or established work of an idol. Abominations constitute the opposite of both the eternity and immortality of God. An abomination is greater than a desolation. Corruption of life and mortality are examples of abomination.

    When that which was earlier a desolation (an evil or imperfect spiritual work) standing in a holy place is made greater to become an abomination (a manifested or established work of an idol) standing in a holy place, then the abomination of desolation stands in a holy place.

    The phrase "abomination of desolation" simply means an abomination made from a desolation.

    The abomination of desolation does not come before the end, but comes after the end. Matthew 24:14 KJV tells us when the end comes:
    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    I think your point is well taken.

    But some of us are of the opinion that Matthew 24:4-14 records an overall summary of the future and that verse 15 starts over filling in more of the details. Do you see it this way also or do you see it another way? Perhaps Matthew 24 is meant to be chronological from start to finish?

  8. #158

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I think your point is well taken.

    But some of us are of the opinion that Matthew 24:4-14 records an overall summary of the future and that verse 15 starts over filling in more of the details. Do you see it this way also or do you see it another way? Perhaps Matthew 24 is meant to be chronological from start to finish?
    Thanks, CadyandZoe!

    Matthew 24 is entirely chronological.

    Verses 2-14 give a general warning about what happens in both the first to the last and in the beginning to the end generations in/of Christ.

    Specially:
    1. verses 2 to 5 warn about what generally happens in both the first and the last generation (that is the first of four ages) and in the beginning and the end generation (that is the second of four ages) in/of God.
    2. verses 6 and 7 specifically warn about wars and rumors of wars tha will happen during the first and the last generation
    3. verses 8 to 14 specifically warn about what happens from the beginning to the end.
    4. verses 15 to 28 specifically warn and give some details about the Great Tribulation (GT). Definitely, the GT happens after the end.
    5. verses 29 to 44 warn and give details about the sign of the appearing of the Son of man. that comes immediately after the GT.
    6. verses 45 to 51 give the reward (blessedness) inherited by a faithful servant who endures up to the appearing of the Son of man. Also given is the punishment for the servant who is not only evil, but abuses his fellowservants.


    Note that the generation of the Son of man, which is from the GT up to His appearing (verses 15 to 44) is the third of four generations of God. This is the generation that will not pass away until all these warnings and details are fulfilled.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  9. #159
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,478
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    The Abomination of Desolation

    Matthew 24:15 KJV
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

    A desolation is an evil or imperfect spiritual work. It is the opposite of prosperity. A desolation is lesser than an abomination.

    An abomination is a manifested or established work of an idol. Abominations constitute the opposite of both the eternity and immortality of God. An abomination is greater than a desolation. Corruption of life and mortality are examples of abomination.

    When that which was earlier a desolation (an evil or imperfect spiritual work) standing in a holy place is made greater to become an abomination (a manifested or established work of an idol) standing in a holy place, then the abomination of desolation stands in a holy place.

    The phrase "abomination of desolation" simply means an abomination made from a desolation.

    The abomination of desolation does not come before the end, but comes after the end. Matthew 24:14 KJV tells us when the end comes:
    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    I understand the spirit and context of Matt 24:14 to say "once the gospel has reached all people and nations, then the end will come quickly." And I see the gospel's finished preaching recorded in Revelation through a heavenly means:

    Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Then the fulfillment of the end right after:

    Revelation 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

    And that represents the wrath of God being poured out. And all this happens right after the 7th Trumpet is blown, which fulfills:

    Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    And that represents THE END of the age, followed by Armageddon and then the Millennium Here:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

  10. #160

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I understand the spirit and context of Matt 24:14 to say "once the gospel has reached all people and nations, then the end will come quickly." And I see the gospel's finished preaching recorded in Revelation through a heavenly means:

    Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Then the fulfillment of the end right after:

    Revelation 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

    And that represents the wrath of God being poured out. And all this happens right after the 7th Trumpet is blown, which fulfills:

    Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    And that represents THE END of the age, followed by Armageddon and then the Millennium Here:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    The gospel of the kingdom is different from the everlasting gospel. While the former focuses on God the Son as the Eternal and Great King, the later focuses on the God the Father as the Everlasting and Most High.

    Also, the generation of the former is known as the Day while that of the later is known as the Hour. It is very important to note how both generations are tagged.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  11. #161
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,478
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: the Great Tribulation and the AoD

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    The gospel of the kingdom is different from the everlasting gospel. While the former focuses on God the Son as the Eternal and Great King, the later focuses on the God the Father as the Everlasting and Most High.

    Also, the generation of the former is known as the Day while that of the later is known as the Hour. It is very important to note how both generations are tagged.

    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


    "THIS Gospel" is about Jesus Christ and His Kingdom, AND what He taught... Which is that "God the Father is the Everlasting and Most High." Jesus always includes the Father in all that is His.

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    However, I concede that "THIS Gospel" of Matt 24 is more specific to the Gospel laid out in Matt 24, being that Jesus is coming on the Clouds of Heaven to Gather His Elect after the Abomination of Desolation, and the signs in the Heavens and the Earth.

    I still hold to the end coming and announced in Revelation 14:6-7 BECAUSE IT IS STILL "AFTER-(and then)" the coming of Christ which is part of "THAT GOSPEL". The main part of "that gospel" in Matt 24 INCLUDES the gathering of the Elect, so then the allowance of the END to happen is now an option, where it was not before. So then it comes after the 7th Seal"

    Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Your light on the "day" and the "hour" are interesting, but I would need to dig deeper to confirm or reject that. My first thought is that this is that Matt 24:36 and 50 have nothing to do with what you are trying to point out here, if you are eluding to that...

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Discussion Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and the Wrath of God
    By seeker_truth in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: May 21st 2018, 06:26 AM
  2. The great tribulation. Only one? Or more than one?
    By divaD in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 183
    Last Post: Feb 14th 2017, 10:31 PM
  3. The Great Tribulation. It isn't about the AC.
    By Tony P in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: Aug 3rd 2016, 05:33 AM
  4. The Great Tribulation
    By jeffweeder in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: Dec 10th 2009, 07:04 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •