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Thread: Did Israel possess their land?

  1. #76
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    "One shepherd" meaning "one king" and not two. Because at the time, remember, there was two kingdoms, Judah and Israel, and two kings or "shepherds".

    Nothing in Judaism leads one to believe that the messiah will be anything but a human being. An exemplary human being, on the level with Moses. But only a person, not an immortal being or a god.
    Do you then see living and dying continuing for forever? Because it seems to me, if procreation is continuing on forever through the Messiah's line, and whoever else, well this planet is only so big, and if people aren't also dying throughout eternity, it will be a matter of no time before this planet is over populated beyond reason. Interestingly enough, for those of us who see the Messiah being Jesus, all of those things are solved. Only one Messiah, thus only one shepherd. And the fact that Jesus said this...

    Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    Angels in heaven don't procreate, yet they apparently live forever. Problem solved if Jesus is the promised Messiah. There won't be procreation occurring throughout eternity, thus no reason anyone needs to die throughout eternity in order to keep the population on the earth at reasonable numbers.

  2. #77
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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Do you then see living and dying continuing for forever? Because it seems to me, if procreation is continuing on forever through the Messiah's line, and whoever else, well this planet is only so big, and if people aren't also dying throughout eternity, it will be a matter of no time before this planet is over populated beyond reason. Interestingly enough, for those of us who see the Messiah being Jesus, all of those things are solved. Only one Messiah, thus only one shepherd. And the fact that Jesus said this...

    Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    Angels in heaven don't procreate, yet they apparently live forever. Problem solved if Jesus is the promised Messiah. There won't be procreation occurring throughout eternity, thus no reason anyone needs to die throughout eternity in order to keep the population on the earth at reasonable numbers.
    Another way for the problem to be solved is for man to leave earth and go to the other planets in this universe which God has made.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Another way for the problem to be solved is for man to leave earth and go to the other planets in this universe which God has made.
    That would solve the problem. Yet if Jesus is in the NJ forever, and that the NJ is on the earth forever, and that where He is there we shall be also, how could that be possible if some move to entirely different planets altogether?

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    That would solve the problem. Yet if Jesus is in the NJ forever, and that the NJ is on the earth forever, and that where He is there we shall be also, how could that be possible if some move to entirely different planets altogether?
    That then depends on how you understand "where He is, we will be also."
    If it is a purely physical meaning, then we won't all fit in the same room or even necessarily be with a couple of miles of where He is.
    If however it has a spiritual meaning of being in relationship with him, on the same page, as we might say, then this is not such an issue.
    How are we to rule the nations if we only are with Him? Do we remain physically absent from them?
    I see scripture when brought into practical realities shows what is a literal meaning and what is relational.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Do you then see living and dying continuing for forever? Because it seems to me, if procreation is continuing on forever through the Messiah's line, and whoever else, well this planet is only so big, and if people aren't also dying throughout eternity, it will be a matter of no time before this planet is over populated beyond reason.
    There will be the messianic era, followed at some point in time by the resurrection of the dead and the world to come.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    There will be the messianic era, followed at some point in time by the resurrection of the dead and the world to come.
    Any reason why the resurrection of the dead can't occur at the beginning of the messianic era, rather than after it? The reason I ask, and I realize you couldn't care less about Premil vs Amil, but that this seems to support Amil rather than Premil. Premils basically believe the resurrection of the dead precedes the messianic era and also follows it. IOW, 2 resurrections of the dead. The first resurrection is for those that have done good. The 2nd resurrection is for those that have done evil. Amils believe we are currently in the messianic era, and when the Messiah returns, the resurrection of the dead takes place, including all the dead, those that did good, and those that did evil. All of that aside since I assume you are uninterested, I'm still curious if there are any valid Biblical reasons why the resurrection of the dead can't also occur at the beginning of the messianic era?

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Any reason why the resurrection of the dead can't occur at the beginning of the messianic era, rather than after it?
    The messianic prophecies describe many things but resurrection of the dead really isn't one of them. It mostly seems to be the Jewish exiles gathered, world peace, universal knowledge of God.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    The Abrahamic Covenant had 3 clauses:

    1. I will give all these lands,
    2. I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven
    3. In your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed


    They were all fulfilled over a process of time. Land promise fulfilled 1000 BC.

    The third one (families of earth blessed) was the most important one. Fulfilled 34 AD.

    Is God obliged to expand Israel's territory to the Euphrates River again - even though he has done it before? I don't think so. Its already been fulfilled. There is only one reason that I can think of why God has regathered Israel back, and that is to give them another chance to accept Jesus, Messiah.
    I agree with you that the technical boundaries given at one time should not have to apply for all time and eternity. Circumstances change. The important element has to do with the people and their land. There has to be descendants from all of the tribes. And there must be sufficient land in that area to contain descendants of all those tribes, and sufficient to constitute a self-sufficient nation.

    So this has to be undoubtedly larger than the current State of Israel. The so-called Occupied Territories is an encroachment on national security for the Jewish People. And threats and challenges on all sides put natural resources at jeopardy.

    So, land extending to the Euphrates may have been fulfilled in perhaps Solomon's time, or some other time. But a place in Canaan is understood to be traditional Israel. And to represent all the tribes it must be more than just the old Kingdom of Judah or the old Kingdom of Israel. It must contain land sufficient to contain both of these old kingdoms.

    I think it's impossible to have tribal designations. I think their naming only serves the purpose to show the extent to which this land must cover, and must determine that the Jewish People contain *all* of these tribes' descendants. That is, being called the "Jewish People" we can assume all the tribes are contained in them.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    "One shepherd" meaning "one king" and not two. Because at the time, remember, there was two kingdoms, Judah and Israel, and two kings or "shepherds".

    Nothing in Judaism leads one to believe that the messiah will be anything but a human being. An exemplary human being, on the level with Moses. But only a person, not an immortal being or a god.
    This is related to this verse and I wondered if you would give me your opinion of whom is being spoken of:

    Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Fenris, who would you say is "the figure of him that was to come"?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Any reason why the resurrection of the dead can't occur at the beginning of the messianic era, rather than after it? The reason I ask, and I realize you couldn't care less about Premil vs Amil, but that this seems to support Amil rather than Premil. Premils basically believe the resurrection of the dead precedes the messianic era and also follows it. IOW, 2 resurrections of the dead. The first resurrection is for those that have done good. The 2nd resurrection is for those that have done evil. Amils believe we are currently in the messianic era, and when the Messiah returns, the resurrection of the dead takes place, including all the dead, those that did good, and those that did evil. All of that aside since I assume you are uninterested, I'm still curious if there are any valid Biblical reasons why the resurrection of the dead can't also occur at the beginning of the messianic era?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    The messianic prophecies describe many things but resurrection of the dead really isn't one of them. It mostly seems to be the Jewish exiles gathered, world peace, universal knowledge of God.
    For those of us who believe the New Testament, the matter of resurrection is not complicated, but it needs care and accuracy. I will comment on it anon, but first to Fenris' statement. Daniel 12:1-2 predicts;

    1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."


    Without an exhaustive commentary it is still clear that after the Great Tribulation, or "Jacob's Trouble", that certain of Daniel's People - Israel, will be delivered. These must be the Remnant who turn back to the Law as a prerequisite to God restoring Israel (Deut.30:1-5). The days of this Jacob's Trouble are shortened for the "elect's sake" so that they can survive. These then are the LIVING Jews at the time of the end of the age. Then verse 2 addresses the millions of Jews who have lived and died from Isaac onward. THREE things are evident from verse 2;
    1. "Many" is not the same as "ALL". Not ALL Jews are reusrrected after the Great Tribulation. I judge that those Israelites through the centuries, who refused circumcision and are to be "cut off" from their people" (Gen.17:14), will not be resurrected for the Messianic age. Thus, it is only "Many" and not "ALL"
    2. The resurrection that takes place after Jacob's Trouble will encompass the righteous Israelites. Those who kept the Law. They are given "Life" as a reward
    3. In this resurrection the evil Israelites of the centuries will be resurrected too, but will remain objects of failure and contempt in Israel for ever. I mean people like Korah, Saul and Solomon etc. They are a shame to their standing as God's people and suffer terrible loss. Nevertheless, they are resurrected too at this time.

    The New Testament is more forthcoming about resurrection. In 1st Corinthians 15, the Chapter on resurrection, it says in verse 22 that ALL men will eventually be resurrected. This is in accordance with both verse 26 that says "death will be destroyed", verse 54 that says "Death is swallowed up in victory", and Revelation 21:4 that says that on the New (or Renewed) Earth, there will be no more death. Verse 23 then sets forth a SEQUENCE of resurrection of ALL men:
    1. First Christ as the "Forerunner", the Preeminent One and the "Firstborn from the dead"
    2. Then, "those that are His at His coming". Since the members of the Church are His the Church will be resurrected, and since He is the rightful Owner and King of Israel, the "Many" of Daniel 12:2 will be resurrected then. The time period that lapses in this sequence is 2,000 years.
    3. Verse 24 starts with "THEN". This shows what is next in the sequence. But a TIME PERIOD is also alluded to. The rest of the dead will be raised when our Lord Jesus delivers up the kingdom to God, the Father. And that only happens, "... when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." Now, the rule during the Messianic age, or the Millennium, is that of "the rod of iron". This shows (1) that there will be evil and rebelliousness that needs to be subdued throughout the 1,000 years. (2) Then, Satan is let loose at the end of the 1,000 years and exercises "rule" over an army from Gog and Magog. This army and its leaders are summarily put down under Christ's Kingship and this happens at the end of the Millennium. So in TIME another 1,000 years passes. (3) Then, the last "power" that needs to be "put down" is DEATH. This must mean that the last dead men, or as scripture names them "the REST of the dead" will be resurrected. This happens at the end of the Millennium, or 1,000 years later.

    Now considering these three resurrections IN TIME it is clear from each of them that BOTH the good and the bad in each case are resurrected together.
    1. In Daniel 12:2 the good and evil of Israel are resurrected
    2. In the Parables of the Kingdom, the Church members are divided according to diligent and faithful servants and slothful and sinful servants
    3. At the White Throne the "rest of the dead" are judged according to works and some are found worthy of the Book of Life

    That is, the day of resurrection for each man, whatever his affiliation, decides his future. Now, ONLY ONE RESURRECTION AND JUDGEMENT HAS CONSEQUENCES RELATED TO CO-KINGSHIP WITH CHRIST - that of the Church. Israel forfeit the Kingdom (Matt.21:43) and the nations will be the SUBJECTS who will be ruled. So the resurrection and judgement of the nation of Israel and the nations has no consequences as to WHO WILL RULE WITH CHRIST. But the resurrection and the judgement of the Church IS CRUCIAL FOR DEFINING WHO WILL RULE WITH CHRIST. The resurrection of the Church will produce the good Christians and the bad. The Bible thus gives the resurrection of the Church a DIVISION. Paul speaks of a "Special resurrection" in Philippians 3:11 - THAT HAS TO BE ATTAINED TO (that is, it is to be gained by EFFORT), and Revelation 20 says that those who rule with Christ and partake of the "FIRST RESURRECTION" are martyrs (v.4-5). In both cases, the "special resurrection" is a REWARD for beinga diligent and faithful Christian as opposed to slothful, worldly and selfish Christians.

    Now, all that remains is to DEFINE the "FIRST RESURRECTION". The Greek word "protos" can mean two things;
    1. It can mean the FIRST in TIME like Matthew 17:27. "... cast an hook, and take up the fish that FIRST cometh up; ... ", that is, the FIRST IN TIME
    2. It can mean the FIRST IN IMPORTANCE like Matthew 20:27. "And whosoever will be CHIEF among you, let him be your servant".

    And it at once becomes apparent that it CANNOT be "First in TIME". If we take TIME then there are many resurrections that PREDATE those killed by the Beast at the end of the age. Elijah raised one, Elisha raised one, one was raised by touching Elish'a bones, Christ raised three during His ministry, Christ Himself was raised and a multitude on the same day as Christ. Then Peter raised the dead and so did Paul. So it is obvious that IN TIME, the resurrection at the end of this age CANNOT be that of "FIRST IN TIME". This leaves only ONE OPTION. It is a resurrection that is "FIRST IN IMPORTANCE". And in both Philippians 3:11 and Revelation 20:4-5, those resurrected in this "FIRST IN IMPORTANCE" had to GAIN IT. It is the resurrection that DECIDES who will rule with Christ.

    To summarize;
    • There are multiple resurrections starting with the Elijah's time
    • Every man who ever lives will be resurrected to destroy and defeat death
    • The ORDER of resurrection is Christ first - then 2,000 years pass, then the Church and Israel are resurrected - then 1,000 years pass and the "rest of the dead" are raised
    • In each contingent, the good and bad of that contingent are raised together and judged
    • The Church was appointed to be co-kings of the earth with Christ. Their judgement is the most crucial for God's plan. Those Christians found to have been self-denying, obedient, persecuted, martyred, who suffer tribulation and who had an intimate walk with Jesus, will be rewarded by being co-kings of the earth with Jesus. Their resurrection is DESIGNATED the "FIRST (in importance) RESURRECTION".

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    This is related to this verse and I wondered if you would give me your opinion of whom is being spoken of:

    Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Fenris, who would you say is "the figure of him that was to come"?
    No offense meant, but this is amusing. Why are you asking me my opinion on an NT verse? I don't consider it canon.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    No offense meant, but this is amusing. Why are you asking me my opinion on an NT verse? I don't consider it canon.
    Because of your knowledge of the OT. The writer is a Jew who converted but he was still raised Jewish and educated in the OT etc. In your opinion, whom is the figure of him that was to come the NT verse was speaking of?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Because of your knowledge of the OT. The writer is a Jew who converted but he was still raised Jewish and educated in the OT etc. In your opinion, whom is the figure of him that was to come the NT verse was speaking of?
    I'm trying to give the verse proper context by reading all of Romans 5. But I'm really having problems processing the whole chapter.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I'm trying to give the verse proper context by reading all of Romans 5. But I'm really having problems processing the whole chapter.
    Well Paul is speaking of a forerunner of the Messiah and two names are mentioned. As a Jew, who would you say the OT supports as being a forerunner of the Messiah, Adam or Moses? And if there are any supporting verses please share if possible. Thanks!
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Did Israel possess their land?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.


    Like I have pointed out numerous times in the past, one can't cherrypick in this verse. If this part.... wherein your fathers have dwelt...is meaning literal land in a geographic location on the earth, then so must this part...And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant...mean this same literal land where their father's have dwelt. The text above says this as well....and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever


    What we should be asking ourselves at this point is this. The land where their father's have dwelt, is the rest of that verse being fulfilled, as we speak? Such as?....And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant.... and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever

    So are they then? Are they currently dwelling their forever right now, in this same land where their fathers dwelt? And if the land promise was fulfilled in 1000 BC, that should mean they have been dwelling there nonstop since. One problem with that theory is this, not that there are not other problems wrong with that theory. The text says...and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. If Christ is meant here, well He wasn't even born yet in 1000 BC.


    If and until you can debunk what I just submitted here, it looks like to me, what I submitted here clearly debunks some of what you submitted.

    I think its impossible for these forever promises to be fulfilled on this OHOE.
    Its not going to be forever as this OHOE passes away.

    They are fulfilled on a NHNE yes?
    Our inheritance was prepared from the foundation of the world, when God created the heaven and earth very good, and then prepared a place where God walked and lived with Man called Eden.

    So we look for a NHNE and the NJ were God will tabernacle with us forever.
    This is what Peter is waiting for and looking forward to...,


    2Pet 3
    11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
    14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
    17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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