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Thread: The Seals

  1. #1
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    The Seals

    Were the seals of the book opened in the first century?

    IMO, of course they were. We could not talk about them if they were not.

    These prophecies were not given to Jesus during his ministry. Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

    They were not given to the disciples as a whole. Acts 1:6-7 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    They may have been given to Paul. 2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    These prophecies were given specifically to John in the first century as found in Rev 1:1-2. In light of this, how can it be that everything after chapter 4 occurs after the church age?

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Were the seals of the book opened in the first century?

    IMO, of course they were. We could not talk about them if they were not.

    These prophecies were not given to Jesus during his ministry. Mark 13:32 [FONT="]But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the [/FONT]Son, but the Father.

    They were not given to the disciples as a whole. Acts 1:6-7 6 [FONT="]When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?[/FONT]7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    They may have been given to Paul. 2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    These prophecies were given specifically to John in the first century as found in Rev 1:1-2. In light of this, how can it be that everything after chapter 4 occurs after the church age?
    Yes they were and they line up with Matthew chapter 24 which happened in the first century

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Were the seals of the book opened in the first century?

    IMO, of course they were. We could not talk about them if they were not.

    These prophecies were not given to Jesus during his ministry. Mark 13:32 [FONT="]But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the [/FONT]Son, but the Father.

    They were not given to the disciples as a whole. Acts 1:6-7 6 [FONT="]When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?[/FONT]7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    They may have been given to Paul. 2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    These prophecies were given specifically to John in the first century as found in Rev 1:1-2. In light of this, how can it be that everything after chapter 4 occurs after the church age?
    I’m not sure how much of Revelation you think is past. I think most of it is and so I appreciate this post.

    It seems so crystal clear to me.

    John was writing to seven actual churches suffering real persecution. If I’m in Sardis, for example, Antipas has been killed. The saints of Smyrna are being persecuted and Jesus speaks of a sixth seal that won’t be fulfilled for over two millennia and people are going to argue about endless in an electronic forum about what that seal is in their time?

    “Jesus, why are you telling me about this sixth seal? My friends are dying. We are suffering and being persecuted. I don’t care a rat’s caboose about some sixth seal over 2,000 years from now long after I’m dead. How does this help me now?”

    This should be so obvious, IMO.

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Were the seals of the book opened in the first century?

    IMO, of course they were. We could not talk about them if they were not.

    These prophecies were not given to Jesus during his ministry. Mark 13:32 [FONT="]But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the [/FONT]Son, but the Father.

    They were not given to the disciples as a whole. Acts 1:6-7 6 [FONT="]When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?[/FONT]7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    They may have been given to Paul. 2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    These prophecies were given specifically to John in the first century as found in Rev 1:1-2. In light of this, how can it be that everything after chapter 4 occurs after the church age?
    John was told by Jesus what the Seals contained and what was in the Scroll.
    When Jesus ascended to heaven, He was found worthy to remove the Seals and He commenced to do that. Revelation 5 & 6:1

    We know the first five Seals were broken open by Jesus then, because we have experienced all the effects of those things since that time. But we await the Sixth and Seventh Seals to happen.

    Where do you get the idea that the Church age is over by Rev 4? That cannot be right, as we see Christians are present in Revelation 12:17.

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    I’m not sure how much of Revelation you think is past. I think most of it is and so I appreciate this post.

    It seems so crystal clear to me.

    John was writing to seven actual churches suffering real persecution. If I’m in Sardis, for example, Antipas has been killed. The saints of Smyrna are being persecuted and Jesus speaks of a sixth seal that won’t be fulfilled for over two millennia and people are going to argue about endless in an electronic forum about what that seal is in their time?

    “Jesus, why are you telling me about this sixth seal? My friends are dying. We are suffering and being persecuted. I don’t care a rat’s caboose about some sixth seal over 2,000 years from now long after I’m dead. How does this help me now?”

    This should be so obvious, IMO.
    Good post we always have to read the bible standing in the shoes of the people that it was written too

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Good post we always have to read the bible standing in the shoes of the people that it was written too
    So what's the Bible then? Just a history book, with homilies?

    No: God has given us Christians, now in the last days, the information needed for us to stand firm in our faith during all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
    That this information had very little, if any, application to the early Christians and to all those up until now, makes it all the more applicable to us, upon whom the end of the age has come.
    And to discount it, ignore it, spiritualize it or throw it into the bin of history, is serious error and may lead to loss for you.

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Were the seals of the book opened in the first century?

    IMO, of course they were. We could not talk about them if they were not.

    These prophecies were not given to Jesus during his ministry. Mark 13:32 [FONT="]But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the [/FONT]Son, but the Father.

    They were not given to the disciples as a whole. Acts 1:6-7 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    They may have been given to Paul. 2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    These prophecies were given specifically to John in the first century as found in Rev 1:1-2. In light of this, how can it be that everything after chapter 4 occurs after the church age?
    You're wrong. The things that happen after ch. 4 does *not* occur after the Church age. Of course, I'm Postrib. I have to believe that the seals were opened not just in the Early Church but directly in front of John! The seals were being opened at that time! They were prophecies of future events.

    So the events represented by the opening of these seals happened as they were being described. Obviously, Christ's Coming was described in several places, and that did not take place in John's time, nor in the Early Church. It certainly didn't happen in 70 AD!

    However, some of the things mentioned in the opening of the seals indicate that they were taking place even in John's time. The horse going out to conquer, peace being taken from the earth, martyrdom, plagues, wars--these all began to take place in the generation of Jesus, because Jesus said they would take place!

    The events taking place in the blowing of the 7 trumpets also depict events associated with the end of the age. We know that because at the 7th trumpet the Kingdom of Christ comes. So all 7 trumpets have to do with preparing for the coming of the Kingdom of Christ!

    I know that in order for Christ to come the powers of this earth have to be broken. And in this process of breaking them, God will allow havoc to reign on earth, with destruction all over the place. These things are happening throughout the age. But I believe they will obtain a greater intensity at the time of Armageddon, immediately before Christ comes.

    I don't know how anybody can know when these seals and when these trumpet events will happen precisely? Jesus said they would begin to happen in his own generation, and would continue until the day of his Coming.

    We know that the Antichrist will reign as an extension of the old Roman Empire at the end of the age, in a period of 3.5 years. And we know that the 7 vials will bring judgment down upon the Antichrist and his forces.

    So we do have a time frame. But I believe most of it applies in any era until the actual coming of the Lord. It's just that the reign of Antichrist himself has a special period at the end of the age, lasting 3.5 years and ending with Christ's actual Coming.

    However, throughout this present age we meet many antichrists--we don't need Antichrist himself to face Satan in this way. There is opposition from demons and also from people who follow the rebellion of Satan.

    And so, the book of Revelation is for NOW. Let's not just make it about future speculations. It is for today, as well as for tomorrow. The lessons of tomorrow are given so that we may apply them today!

  8. #8

    Re: The Seals

    Here's one small part of how I see the chronology (I don't have much time at the moment, to elaborate, but have in past posts):

    Matthew 22:7-8 says,

    "7 `And the king having heard, was wroth, and having sent forth his soldiers, he destroyed those murderers, and their city he set on fire;

    8 then saith he to his servants, The marriage-feast indeed is ready, and those called were not worthy,"

    So between verse 7's "burned up their city" [that's the 70ad events], and verse 8's "THEN SAITH HE unto His servants," John takes up his pen to "write" what he is given to write in the Revelation (the "THEN SAITH HE" parts), and verse 1 says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants THINGS WHICH MUST COME TO PASS IN QUICKNESS [noun]..." [see "servants of our God" in Rev7:3, for example (these are "future" 144,000 servants)];

    I am inclined to agree with those who say that The Revelation was written in 95ad, or thereabouts; that is, AFTER the events of 70ad. This means that the Seals are not being opened upon Jesus' resurrection/ascension in 32ad, they are not being opened in the events of 70ad, nor are they being opened [actually] while John is penning this, in 95ad (or thereabouts).

    Additionally, I believe the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" [1Th5:2-3] is what Paul is equating with the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" time period, which he says in 2Th2 is NOT "present" at the time of that writing. The INITIAL birth PANG [singular] of course correlates with "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" which Jesus referred to (and described briefly) in Matt24:4-8 (and Luke 21 says "before all these [things, namely 'the beginning of birth pangs [plural],']" before those occur, the 70ad events needed to occur. This is another reason why "the beginning of birth PANGS" commences yet future [future to 70ad events, and future to 95ad writings], which I believe correlate with the Seals of Rev6 (the first one would be the "whose coming" [2Th2:9] of the man of sin, "IN HIS TIME," yet future to us).

    That's all I have time for at the moment.

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Here's one small part of how I see the chronology (I don't have much time at the moment, to elaborate, but have in past posts):

    Matthew 22:7-8 says,

    "7 `And the king having heard, was wroth, and having sent forth his soldiers, he destroyed those murderers, and their city he set on fire;

    8 then saith he to his servants, The marriage-feast indeed is ready, and those called were not worthy,"

    So between verse 7's "burned up their city" [that's the 70ad events], and verse 8's "THEN SAITH HE unto His servants," John takes up his pen to "write" what he is given to write in the Revelation (the "THEN SAITH HE" parts), and verse 1 says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants THINGS WHICH MUST COME TO PASS IN QUICKNESS [noun]..." [see "servants of our God" in Rev7:3, for example (these are "future" 144,000 servants)];

    I am inclined to agree with those who say that The Revelation was written in 95ad, or thereabouts; that is, AFTER the events of 70ad. This means that the Seals are not being opened upon Jesus' resurrection/ascension in 32ad, they are not being opened in the events of 70ad, nor are they being opened [actually] while John is penning this, in 95ad (or thereabouts).

    Additionally, I believe the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" [1Th5:2-3] is what Paul is equating with the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" time period, which he says in 2Th2 is NOT "present" at the time of that writing. The INITIAL birth PANG [singular] of course correlates with "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" which Jesus referred to (and described briefly) in Matt24:4-8 (and Luke 21 says "before all these [things, namely 'the beginning of birth pangs [plural],']" before those occur, the 70ad events needed to occur. This is another reason why "the beginning of birth PANGS" commences yet future [future to 70ad events, and future to 95ad writings], which I believe correlate with the Seals of Rev6 (the first one would be the "whose coming" [2Th2:9] of the man of sin, "IN HIS TIME," yet future to us).

    That's all I have time for at the moment.
    I respect this argument, brother, because it's rational and it's honest. I don't agree with you, as you know, because I believe the birth pains actually was the 70 AD event, and not something that followed.

    The "birth pains" in the Olivet Discourse were somewhat different from the "birth pains" Paul was referring to, but they were similar. That's because the birth pains of 70 AD were meant to typify the way Christians are to view their own time throughout the NT age, as something immediately preliminary to the 2nd Coming.

    For the Jews, there was a pre-eschatological judgment in the generation of Jesus, because the Jews of that generation largely rejected Jesus. So there were the birth pains of the Kingdom, the judgment event of 70 AD, which precedes the return of Christ. And this beginning of birth pains was followed by an age-long Jewish Diaspora.

    In the same way this applies to Christians throughout the age who live in other nations. They have their own "birth pains," the judgment of their own nation, which also precedes the coming of the Lord. That's just how I see it, though you'll likely not agree.

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    So what's the Bible then? Just a history book, with homilies?

    No: God has given us Christians, now in the last days, the information needed for us to stand firm in our faith during all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
    That this information had very little, if any, application to the early Christians and to all those up until now, makes it all the more applicable to us, upon whom the end of the age has come.
    And to discount it, ignore it, spiritualize it or throw it into the bin of history, is serious error and may lead to loss for you.
    Although the bible is for us not all of it was written to us

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Although the bible is for us not all of it was written to us
    All the unfulfilled prophesies surely are! It is quite certain that the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's wrath, as described in over 100 prophesies - has not occurred yet.

    Re; Labor Pangs:
    Romans 8:19-23 The created universe is waiting with eager expectation for God’s sons to be revealed. It was His choice to subject all things to mortality and decay, with the eventual goal of His people entering into the glorious liberty of immortality and a renewed creation. Up to the present as we know, the whole of creation, in all its parts, groans as if in the pangs of childbirth. What is more, we also, to whom the Spirit is given as first-fruits of the harvest to come, are inwardly groaning in anticipation of our adoption as children of God and our liberation from mortality.
    Isaiah 42:13-15 The Lord has kept silence and restrained Himself for all this age, allowing this world to go its own way. But as the appointed time approaches, He is like a woman in labour, prepared and ready to take action. The Lord will go forth as a warrior, roused to a fury in the heat of battle. He will shout His battle cry and will triumph over His enemies. The land will be laid to waste, all the plants and trees will burn and the streams and lakes will become dry. Isaiah 63:4, Habakkuk 2:3, Jeremiah 4:23-28
    Matthew 24:3-8 Lord; tell us the signs of the end of this age. Jesus replied: Take care that no-one misleads you, for many false Messiahs and teachers will come and many will be fooled by them. The time is coming when you will hear of wars and rumours of wars, for there will be an increase of wars, earthquakes, diseases and famines. All these things are the birth pangs of the new age. Jeremiah 15:2

    As Jesus prophesied, there will be wars, earthquakes, diseases and famines at the end of this age. He likened these things to ‘birth pangs’. When we consider normal childbirth, the labor pangs are separated by periods of relative calm. So if there have been times when clusters of those four disasters have occurred, we can ascertain that time must be very short for this age. Here are the facts:
    1/ In 1914-19, World War 1 occurred. There were 7 earthquakes of over 8 magnitude. Smallpox and typhus killed millions, but Spanish flu killed at least 50 million in 1918/19. There were terrible famines in Europe and Russia.
    2/ During 1939-45 there was World War 2 and 8 earthquakes of over 8 magnitude. Typhus again killed millions, in North Africa, in Iran and Europe. Anne Frank died of typhus. A terrible famine in China killed at least 45 million.
    3/ The data suggests that the third ‘birth pang’, commenced in Nov. 11, 2001. Wars and rumors of wars are rife. It is considered that the global war on terrorism is a world war. There have been more than 14 earthquakes of 8 and two over 9 magnitude. Diseases such as cancer and AIDs were of epidemic proportions. Crop failures due to unusual weather and wars result in famines in Asia, Russia and Africa.
    4/ The fourth and final ‘birth pang’, will be the Great Tribulation, so vividly described in Revelation, but ending with the Return of Jesus and the birth of the Millennial era.

    But the last, most shocking and devastating event of this third birth pang, will be the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. This will be the many prophesied ‘fire from heaven’ that describes a huge Coronal Mass Ejection sunstrike, will affect the whole world, killing probably billions. This will enable two things; the establishment of a One World Government and the re-settling of the Lord’s people into all of the holy Land. The time gap of the Seventh Seal, Revelation 8:1, [1/2 hour in Heaven = 20 years on earth] from this CME until the Great Tribulation is prophesied as a time of peace and prosperity. After the G.T. Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign.

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    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Were the seals of the book opened in the first century?

    IMO, of course they were. We could not talk about them if they were not.

    These prophecies were not given to Jesus during his ministry. Mark 13:32 [FONT="]But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the [/FONT]Son, but the Father.

    They were not given to the disciples as a whole. Acts 1:6-7 6 [FONT="]When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?[/FONT]7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    They may have been given to Paul. 2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    These prophecies were given specifically to John in the first century as found in Rev 1:1-2. In light of this, how can it be that everything after chapter 4 occurs after the church age?
    Men find two things (among others) abhorrent;
    1. The first is that they are so insignificant. They hate the thought that they struggle and sweat for a mere 70 years and then disappear with hardly a thought of the their grandchildren who are just one generation removed. So his tendency, when faced with prophecy, is to try and weave it into their insignificant lifetimes to give it some meaning
    2. The second is that he is a sinner, fallen, utterly depraved and is limited by the darkness of his mind. He generally refuses the light (Jn.1:5). So while he goes to and fro trying to make something of the matter of prophecy, he refuses the real message of what is written before him.

    And so, when men approach the Book of Revelation, they go for any, and every, attempt to place the events in, our around their puny lives, and forget the grand picture that is set before them. The Book of "Revelation" gets its name from its theme. The "REVEALING" of our Lord Jesus from heaven to complete the Councils of God on this earth. The word "Apokalypsis" in the Greek means "the Revealing", or "the unveiling". That means, any attempt to put the events of this Book into disassociation with the Revealing, from heaven, of Jesus, is vain.

    Added to this, the Book unveils the total fallenness of men, their evil, and the coming WRATH of God when anon, His patience is exhausted. Let us take the 7 Churches. All through Acts of the Apostles and the various letters, the Holy Spirit has pointed out problems in the Church and then predicted that Christians, just like Israel, will shun admonishment and apostate themselves. So we find by 95 AD, when John wrote Revelation, that of 7 representative Churches, FIVE are completely fallen and are castigated by the Lord with fiery eyes and feet of brass. The sixth is not castigated but admonished that they are on the brink of apostasy, and only one is commended, but with a warning attached. So what does the average Christian do when he reads these records? He looks to other details, applies them to himself and WALKS AWAY FROM THE MAIN MESSAGE THAT IF THE CHURCH WAS IN THIS CONDITION BY 95 AD, WHAT IS THE PRESENT CONDITION OF THE CHURCH?

    Then, thinking that he, the small man, has ever experienced the full wrath of a God Who has reached His full weight of anger, likes to put the whole ugly affair of the Seals IN THE PAST. Just like Israel who inquired of Jeremiah, but had no intention of addressing the Words of God, the contemporary Christian ignores that the God's WRATH is still ahead of him for his sins and indifference to God's Words. He points to this earthquake and that war and says "see, the Great Tribulation is past"! But when told that God's Words say that, "... nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places", but that, "All these are the beginning of sorrows" (Matt.24:7-8), he shuffles his feet, clucks his tongue and points out what a slaughter the First World War produced, and says; "the Seals are past". Some even have the view that that MINOR battle at Jerusalem in 70 AD, and the subsequent slaughter/suicide of a few thousand Jews at Masada, is "Jacob's Trouble". He pointedly ignores that Jacob's Trouble is time when the WHOLE earth becomes unlivable, and men all over cry for death, and that if it was not shortened by God to 42 months, NO FLESH would survive.

    But let it be repeated; THE EVENTS OF REVELATION, AND PARTICULARLY THE SEALS, ARE CONNECTED WITH THE "REVEALING" OF JESUS FROM HEAVEN AT THE END OF THIS AGE. ALL LIES IN THE FUTURE! And the grand message is NOT what happened in our lifetimes, or the past, but OUR SPIRITUAL CONDITION AND WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT. If this approach is taken, then the Book of Revelation applies to, and is effectual to, every Christian who ever lived in any century.

  13. #13

    Re: The Seals

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Were the seals of the book opened in the first century?

    IMO, of course they were. We could not talk about them if they were not.

    These prophecies were not given to Jesus during his ministry. Mark 13:32 [FONT="]But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the [/FONT]Son, but the Father.

    They were not given to the disciples as a whole. Acts 1:6-7 6 [FONT="]When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?[/FONT]7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    They may have been given to Paul. 2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    These prophecies were given specifically to John in the first century as found in Rev 1:1-2. In light of this, how can it be that everything after chapter 4 occurs after the church age?
    In the Book of Revelation, the sequence by which things and works occur [L](or are given)[/I] is not based upon calendar periods of time. The sequence is based upon spiritual and/or godliness levels that saints attain.

    Individual saints or churches have prophecies of Book of Revelation fulfilled in themselves depending on their levels in Christ and in God.

    For some, all seals have been opened. For some others, only a few have been opened so that they may be judged and sealed by God.

    To seal is to establish a thing or work. God does not loose any seal He gives or makes manifest.

    What / Why Are Seals in Rev 5, 6 & 7?

    They are established things and works by the devil that saints added to the Church must be rid of. No saint can unseal (unestablish) those things and works of the devil. Only the Lamb can.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: The Seals

    3 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    When on earth has anyone heard this?

    None of the seals have been opened yet, none!!

    The main misunderstanding is thinking the four beasts are four past kings or kingdoms.

    The four beasts Lion , Bear, Leopard, Beast are part of the same kingdom not four past kingdoms. These beasts rise up together as representing the future beast kingdom of Satan on earth..

    The first four seals are the Lion, Bear, Leopard, Beast (First beast) The 5th seal is the second beast.

    Note God has four beasts in his kingdom, do they represent 4 past different kingdoms? NO. They are part of the kingdom of God.

    Think counterfeit!!!

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    Re: The Seals

    Very great and well thought out answers. Thank you everyone. I am now embarrassed because the question in my mind was trivial when compared to these answers.

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