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Thread: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

  1. #16
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    We are far from the heading of the thread now, but ... my two cents worth ...

    I'm not a US citizen either, but randyk is correct. The US constitution is specific because from ancient times men have forced other men to be their slaves because they could not defend themselves. I see you are from London, England. How then did Cromwell and the Roundheads defeat Charles for claiming deity? Rolling pins? How then then did the young America shrug off the British colonial yoke? Not with pots and pans I dare say. And what was England's dilemma when Hitler was just across the Channel? The average Brit had to arm him/herself with pitchforks. And there are mass killings in England. The weapon of choice - fertilizers and such with nails in the explosive devise.
    How to take history out of context. In Cromwell's time it was those who were armed who fought against others who were armed. Cromwell then raised an army utilising ideas which hadn't been done before with his "model" army.
    Which nation was the most powerful in the world, with the biggest army and navy? It was Britain's. The average Brit didn't pick up a pitchfork - perhaps you have watched Dad's Army too many times?
    How many people are killed in Britain as part of "mass killings"? The latest weapon of choice is a vehicle. The french had a guy steal a truck and kill about 80 people (if memory serves correctly). They shot at him with pistols and didn't stop him. It needed someone in the right location to be able to shoot him.

    In Switzerland, every male has to do military service. He remains active, depending on rank, till into his 50's. During all this time he has his military issue rifle AND ammunition at home. In addition, the private ownership of weapons is not restricted. Switzerland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. What think ye?
    Actually in Switzerland people don't carry the guns around with themselves. They took this stance more for external threats than any internal threat. the internal is actually dealt with by allowing people far greater say in what happens. IOW an increase of democracy, not an increase in gun ownership is the cause.
    they also have a problem with suicide and domestic abuse.

    Then, since only law-abiding citizens (or "subjects" in the case of Great Britain), will keep any gun laws. Thus, the gun-laws will result in only criminals having weapons. This is born out by statistics in the US. The most heavily armed societies (like Texas) have the least shootouts. Why? Because every criminal knows that the next guy is probably armed. Co-inhabiting with an armed man or woman breeds courtesy.
    Again incorrect. For though there are a few criminals with guns, it is extremely rare - simply because there aren't any guns available. The US has a problem that there are far more guns than people.

    Finally, there is a spiritual connection to all this. The prevailing world philosophy is "Gnosticism". Gnosticism teaches that man is essentially good and that his environment makes him sin, and that the solution is Knowledge (which, of course is only given to the "illumined few"). This, of course, is to blame man's inherent evil on God. But the Bible teaches that the environment is good, but that man, in his excesses, does evil. So the question that each one must settle in his/her mind, is:
    Do guns kill people or do people kill people? Maybe Cain can answer that.
    If the person doesn't have a gun then they can't kill with it and will resort to something else. the easier you make it possible for someone to have a dangerous weapon, and the more it is glorified then the more violent crime involved.

  2. #17
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    How to take history out of context. In Cromwell's time it was those who were armed who fought against others who were armed. Cromwell then raised an army utilising ideas which hadn't been done before with his "model" army.
    Which nation was the most powerful in the world, with the biggest army and navy? It was Britain's. The average Brit didn't pick up a pitchfork - perhaps you have watched Dad's Army too many times?
    How many people are killed in Britain as part of "mass killings"? The latest weapon of choice is a vehicle. The french had a guy steal a truck and kill about 80 people (if memory serves correctly). They shot at him with pistols and didn't stop him. It needed someone in the right location to be able to shoot him.


    Actually in Switzerland people don't carry the guns around with themselves. They took this stance more for external threats than any internal threat. the internal is actually dealt with by allowing people far greater say in what happens. IOW an increase of democracy, not an increase in gun ownership is the cause.
    they also have a problem with suicide and domestic abuse.


    Again incorrect. For though there are a few criminals with guns, it is extremely rare - simply because there aren't any guns available. The US has a problem that there are far more guns than people.


    If the person doesn't have a gun then they can't kill with it and will resort to something else. the easier you make it possible for someone to have a dangerous weapon, and the more it is glorified then the more violent crime involved.
    Instead of rebutting you point for point I will refer you to man's logic. The single greatest mass murder in one day in the USA was carried out using two jet airliners. Since then, not one voice has been raised to ban airliners. Again, the death toll by guns in the USA is about 33,600 per annum. But many of these deaths are justifiable as police shootings and self defense. The death toll by cars, none of which are legal, is about 33,000 in 5.5 million collisions per annum. Where are the voices for the banning of cars?

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Protective Angel View Post
    Do any believe that 2 Thess 2:3-12 has been fulfilled ??


    3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
    4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
    5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
    6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
    7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
    8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
    9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
    10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
    12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
    Yes...


    Jude
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    How to take history out of context. In Cromwell's time it was those who were armed who fought against others who were armed. Cromwell then raised an army utilising ideas which hadn't been done before with his "model" army.
    Which nation was the most powerful in the world, with the biggest army and navy? It was Britain's. The average Brit didn't pick up a pitchfork - perhaps you have watched Dad's Army too many times?
    How many people are killed in Britain as part of "mass killings"? The latest weapon of choice is a vehicle. The french had a guy steal a truck and kill about 80 people (if memory serves correctly). They shot at him with pistols and didn't stop him. It needed someone in the right location to be able to shoot him.


    Actually in Switzerland people don't carry the guns around with themselves. They took this stance more for external threats than any internal threat. the internal is actually dealt with by allowing people far greater say in what happens. IOW an increase of democracy, not an increase in gun ownership is the cause.
    they also have a problem with suicide and domestic abuse.


    Again incorrect. For though there are a few criminals with guns, it is extremely rare - simply because there aren't any guns available. The US has a problem that there are far more guns than people.


    If the person doesn't have a gun then they can't kill with it and will resort to something else. the easier you make it possible for someone to have a dangerous weapon, and the more it is glorified then the more violent crime involved.
    London has overtaken New York City for number of murders for the first time in over 200 years under the mayoralty of Labour’s Sadiq Khan.

    Britain’s multicultural capital edged ahead of the American city — once so notorious for its high crime rates that it was chosen as the setting for Charles Bronson’s Death Wish –– in February, The Times reports.

    London saw 15 killings to New York’s 14 over the course of the month, and appears to have outstripped ‘Gotham’ yet again in March, with 22 killings to 21.

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018..._medium=social


    Jude
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



  5. #20
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Instead of rebutting you point for point I will refer you to man's logic. The single greatest mass murder in one day in the USA was carried out using two jet airliners. Since then, not one voice has been raised to ban airliners. Again, the death toll by guns in the USA is about 33,600 per annum. But many of these deaths are justifiable as police shootings and self defense. The death toll by cars, none of which are legal, is about 33,000 in 5.5 million collisions per annum. Where are the voices for the banning of cars?
    Is the purpose of a car or an airplane to kill something? Its raison d'etre is to transport people.
    How many people have been deliberately murdered by car and airplane? This you will find is a far smaller statistic than those of guns.
    How many people have died falling off ladders? Yet we don't ban ladders either.
    Most of the 33,600 deaths in the US are NOT justifiable. Do the police really shoot to kill 20,000 people a year? Are the rest ALL killed in self-defense? IOW would otherwise that many people have been killed?
    Your logic is simply faulty. You have a reality which is horrific, and which is NOT easily solved. However if you take steps, one at a time, maybe in 30 years you might have sorted it.
    Ask yourself why New York's crime rate has come down, yet they don't have the same law as in Texas.
    In a 2012 ruling, a federal appeals court upheld New York's law requiring gun owners who seek a concealed weapon permit to prove a special need for protection
    (admittedly from Wikipedia, but I believe it is correct).
    Assault guns are also banned in New York.

  6. #21
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    London has overtaken New York City for number of murders for the first time in over 200 years under the mayoralty of Labour’s Sadiq Khan.

    Britain’s multicultural capital edged ahead of the American city — once so notorious for its high crime rates that it was chosen as the setting for Charles Bronson’s Death Wish –– in February, The Times reports.
    London saw 15 killings to New York’s 14 over the course of the month, and appears to have outstripped ‘Gotham’ yet again in March, with 22 killings to 21.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018..._medium=social
    Jude
    Yep. For the year New York is still more, but there is a problem in London at the moment.

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Protective Angel View Post
    Do any believe that 2 Thess 2:3-12 has been fulfilled ??


    3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
    4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
    5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
    6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
    7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
    8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
    9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
    10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
    12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
    2 Thess 2 has NOT been fulfilled yet, because, the outcome of its fulfilment is the appearing of the Man of Sin.

  8. #23
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Protective Angel View Post
    Seems like delusion abroad. Man and women changing gender. They say it's OK if your 4 year boy wants to be a girl. Men marrying men. Even gay pastors. Really!! Delusion is on the world.
    The delusion started immediately Satan realised he lost when Jesus rose from the grave. It will continue along with it, apostasy, and culminate on the coming of the Antichrist.

  9. #24
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    London has overtaken New York City for number of murders for the first time in over 200 years under the mayoralty of Labour’s Sadiq Khan.

    Britain’s multicultural capital edged ahead of the American city — once so notorious for its high crime rates that it was chosen as the setting for Charles Bronson’s Death Wish –– in February, The Times reports.

    London saw 15 killings to New York’s 14 over the course of the month, and appears to have outstripped ‘Gotham’ yet again in March, with 22 killings to 21.

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018..._medium=socialJude
    I am a Christian born and raised in London. Our mayor Sadiq Khan, is a Muslim. But is he responsible for the spike in murders across the city? Well, some might argue that as mayor, the buck stops with him and they would be right. But for me, the problem transcends the mayor; it is the systematic failure of successive govt. policies that have maligned the young people, especially minorities. Not long ago, tuition fees were exponentially increased and since Brexit, the benefits for youth unemployment or provisions to enable those unable to go to uni to learn a trade has been cut to the bone.

    And the worse-off of these government stringent measures are invariably blacks and other minority groups. I've not read the link, but if the account is truthful, you'll find that the increase in mortality down to black on black knife violence. Most of these poor youths, unable to afford university fees or learn a trade, revert to crime, etc.

  10. #25
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Is the purpose of a car or an airplane to kill something? Its raison d'etre is to transport people.
    How many people have been deliberately murdered by car and airplane? This you will find is a far smaller statistic than those of guns.
    How many people have died falling off ladders? Yet we don't ban ladders either.
    Most of the 33,600 deaths in the US are NOT justifiable. Do the police really shoot to kill 20,000 people a year? Are the rest ALL killed in self-defense? IOW would otherwise that many people have been killed?
    Your logic is simply faulty. You have a reality which is horrific, and which is NOT easily solved. However if you take steps, one at a time, maybe in 30 years you might have sorted it.
    Ask yourself why New York's crime rate has come down, yet they don't have the same law as in Texas.
    In a 2012 ruling, a federal appeals court upheld New York's law requiring gun owners who seek a concealed weapon permit to prove a special need for protection
    (admittedly from Wikipedia, but I believe it is correct).
    Assault guns are also banned in New York.
    So, am I to understand that that because another weapon is used, it is to be allowed because it was not designed for murder. But a gun, which is designed for defense, as guaranteed by the Constitution, so that men might defend themselves, their children, their property and their rights to oppose a despotic government, is not allowed. What say you then of EVERY NATIONS ARMED FORCES? Your logic is thus. The USA shall relinquish all her weapons of war, and in thus doing so, Mexico and Russia and the Taliban will automatically not kill Americans for their Land, Fort Knox, their houses, wifes and their cars?

    C'mon bro (sister). What was the first thing the Philistines did when they subjugated Israel in 1st Samuel 13:19-22? Weapons control!

    19 "Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:
    20 But all the Israelites went down to the Philistines, to sharpen every man his share, and his coulter, and his axe, and his mattock.
    21 Yet they had a file for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the goads.
    22 So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: ... ."

    But who had weapons, and who delivered Israel, and who was the Lord with?

    "... but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found."

    But these you deny.

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So, am I to understand that that because another weapon is used, it is to be allowed because it was not designed for murder. But a gun, which is designed for defense, as guaranteed by the Constitution, so that men might defend themselves, their children, their property and their rights to oppose a despotic government, is not allowed. What say you then of EVERY NATIONS ARMED FORCES? Your logic is thus. The USA shall relinquish all her weapons of war, and in thus doing so, Mexico and Russia and the Taliban will automatically not kill Americans for their Land, Fort Knox, their houses, wifes and their cars?

    C'mon bro (sister). What was the first thing the Philistines did when they subjugated Israel in 1st Samuel 13:19-22? Weapons control!
    19 "Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:
    20 But all the Israelites went down to the Philistines, to sharpen every man his share, and his coulter, and his axe, and his mattock.
    21 Yet they had a file for the mattocks, and for the coulters, and for the forks, and for the axes, and to sharpen the goads.
    22 So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: ... ."

    But who had weapons, and who delivered Israel, and who was the Lord with?
    "... but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found."

    But these you deny.
    I would add to that the wisdom of the King of Judah, King Asa.

    2 Chron 14.2 Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God.3 He removed the foreign altars and the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles.4 He commanded Judah to seek the Lord, the God of their ancestors, and to obey his laws and commands.5 He removed the high places and incense altars in every town in Judah, and the kingdom was at peace under him.6 He built up the fortified cities of Judah, since the land was at peace. No one was at war with him during those years, for the Lord gave him rest.7 “Let us build up these towns,” he said to Judah, “and put walls around them, with towers, gates and bars. The land is still ours, because we have sought the Lord our God; we sought him and he has given us rest on every side.” So they built and prospered.

    Now you might say, this weapons buildup provoked other nations. But that's not what the record indicates. Adventurous neighbors came up against them for purely selfish gain and covetous lusts. And God honored the military buildup, coupled with prayer.

    Now this applies as a national military defense, but does it apply in matters of domestic security and neighborhood defenses? Should the people be armed, to ensure that the government does not use the military to impose its will? I do think that's what the founders of the US Constitution had in mind. And countries that disarm their people find it easier, I think, to impose government control over the people, reducing individual liberties.

  12. #27
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am a Christian born and raised in London. Our mayor Sadiq Khan, is a Muslim. But is he responsible for the spike in murders across the city? Well, some might argue that as mayor, the buck stops with him and they would be right. But for me, the problem transcends the mayor; it is the systematic failure of successive govt. policies that have maligned the young people, especially minorities. Not long ago, tuition fees were exponentially increased and since Brexit, the benefits for youth unemployment or provisions to enable those unable to go to uni to learn a trade has been cut to the bone.

    And the worse-off of these government stringent measures are invariably blacks and other minority groups. I've not read the link, but if the account is truthful, you'll find that the increase in mortality down to black on black knife violence. Most of these poor youths, unable to afford university fees or learn a trade, revert to crime, etc.
    I think dan, in posting #8 unwittingly sidetracked the thread and a few of us followed the new path about the right to weapons for self defense. In my posting #11, last paragraph, I wrote the following;

    Walls, posting #11, last paragraph:
    Finally, there is a spiritual connection to all this. The prevailing world philosophy is "Gnosticism". Gnosticism teaches that man is essentially good and that his environment makes him sin, and that the solution is Knowledge (which, of course is only given to the "illumined few"). This, of course, is to blame man's inherent evil on God. But the Bible teaches that the environment is good, but that man, in his excesses, does evil. So the question that each one must settle in his/her mind, is:
    Do guns kill people or do people kill people? Maybe Cain can answer that.
    I am pleased to see my earlier observation demonstrated here. Your posting attributes the evil in London to;
    • Whether the Mayor is adequate or not
    • Past governments with their policies
    • Maligning young people
    • Minorities
    • Tuition fees hike
    • Brexit
    • Socialist benefits, or lack of them
    • Government not privileging the minorities
    • The inability to afford higher education

    The Gnostic always blames his environment. The Bible attributes the evil to the depraved nature of men. How I look forward to the Millennium were the Lord's choice is "the rule of the rod of iron". Man's inherent depravity will be met head on with immediate and commensurate justice, and those who don't work will not eat - simple (2nd Thess.3:10-12).

  13. #28
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I would add to that the wisdom of the King of Judah, King Asa.

    2 Chron 14.[FONT="]2 Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]3 He removed the foreign altars and the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]4 He commanded Judah to seek the Lord, the God of their ancestors, and to obey his laws and commands.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]5 He removed the high places and incense altars in every town in Judah, and the kingdom was at peace under him.[/FONT][FONT="]6 He built up the fortified cities of Judah, since the land was at peace. No one was at war with him during those years, for the Lord gave him rest.[/FONT]7 “Let us build up these towns,” he said to Judah, “and put walls around them, with towers, gates and bars. The land is still ours, because we have sought the Lord our God; we sought him and he has given us rest on every side.” So they built and prospered.

    Now you might say, this weapons buildup provoked other nations. But that's not what the record indicates. Adventurous neighbors came up against them for purely selfish gain and covetous lusts. And God honored the military buildup, coupled with prayer.

    Now this applies as a national military defense, but does it apply in matters of domestic security and neighborhood defenses? Should the people be armed, to ensure that the government does not use the military to impose its will? I do think that's what the founders of the US Constitution had in mind. And countries that disarm their people find it easier, I think, to impose government control over the people, reducing individual liberties.
    Well said. If man had not fallen, we would not be discussing this. But man IS fallen and his natural tendency is to take what is others by force. The question is then, having established this tendency, shall the population at large be WEAKENED so that this THEFT is made easier. Or is it a fact that any man will think twice when he would take another man's things, but that man is heavily armed and trained? Bearing arms at national level - that is, having a military, bearing arms by the police, and bearing arms by the citizen to protect himself until the police come, should be the most sane solution to the depravity of other men. And it works, even at the divine level. Luke 14:31-32 is an analogy of something else, but its principle is to be applied and therefore correct.

    31 "Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
    32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace."


    The point made above is, is my adversary's armament equal or better to mine? If it is, peace is kept. But the despots would have the law-abiding citizen weak and vulnerable by taking their armaments.

  14. #29

    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Protective Angel View Post
    Do any believe that 2 Thess 2:3-12 has been fulfilled ??


    3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
    4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
    5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
    6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
    7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
    8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
    9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
    10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
    12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
    satan must come first,so my answer would be no.....

  15. #30

    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    What I believe Paul is saying to the Thessalonians is [essentially] that, "don't let any one deceive you into believing that the Day of the Lord [time period] IS PRESENT. [because] that Day will NOT be PRESENT if not shall have come The Departure FIRST... [one thing FIRST]... AND the man of sin be revealed" [once he is revealed, that time period WILL indeed BE PRESENT to unfold upon the earth over time].

    So they were either currently being deceived in this regard (in the matter of being convinced [wrongly] that that time period IS PRESENT), or else in danger of being deceived in this regard... which is separate to the deception that the man of sin brings when he IS revealed ("whose coming is after the working of Satan..."), as well as the issue of [those who will] "believe the lie/the false/the pseudei" (2Th2:10-12) which occurs also during that future time period.

    I assume you're asking about the first issue, the one that you have bolded in black above, which is the matter of their being deceived (or at least were at risk of being deceived) about the faulty idea that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT". It wasn't, and Paul explains why.

    Where did you get "departure"from?



    II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

    Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

    It's important in this final generation that we pay attention for this will happen during our life time. The subject again of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".

    II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

    Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. This is why he makes it plain and simple; Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him. This is because there was a confusing part in the first letter where false teachers had crept in and twisted Paul's words. The prime example of this today is the twisting of that first letter by the "rapture theorist", to form the trap that has been set for Christians in this final generation.

    Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is one of those tradition's of men [false doctrines] that can deceive you.

    II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

    Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

    The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

    What did Paul say again?

    Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?

    Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

    This beast "thou [John] sawest", was in the first earth age; and is not on this earth now, as it is written in Revelation 12:7. Satan is in heaven being our accuser, and will be cast out to this earth very shortly by Michael.

    "And shall ascend out of the bottomless pit; and go into perdition;" Who is he again? He is Satan the Antichrist. Satan is not a man born of woman, but a "supernatural arch angel". In Ezekiel 28 it is written that Satan [Lucifer] is the most beautiful of all God's created beings.

    In Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".

    Isaiah 14:13; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

    Satan is saying, I'm going to be God, and be above the sons [stars] of God. The "mount of the congregation" is on mount Zion; and that is "the side of the north" where Jesus Christ's temple will be.

    Isaiah 14:14; "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Satan is saying again, he is going to be God.

    Isaiah 14:15; "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit."

    Who is this that is going into the pit? Who is this son of perdition? It is Lucifer, who is Satan, the "son of perdition". The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ. Paul then is saying that the true Christ, Jesus Christ, will not return to earth until this "apostasy" takes place first.

    Isaiah 14:16; "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

    Following Jesus Christ's return to earth, and when the Antichrist [Satan] is safely in the pit; the world will wonder; how could Satan have shook all the kingdoms? They simply can't believe that they were deceived into believing this man to be God. Are you going to be one of those deceived into believing Satan is the Christ, or do you know the difference?

    Paul is saying to the Thessalonians that Jesus Christ will not come, or will their be a gathering of the saints until you see the Antichrist [son of perdition] first. It takes a lot of guts to take the word of a false preacher, over Paul, Jesus, John, Isaiah, and a whole host of other prophets and disciples. This "apostasy" [falling away] is caused by the "son of perdition", and you will see him live and in person, very shortly.

    II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

    The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

    Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator".

    "Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.

    Does the "rapture theory" still look inviting to you? If it does, friend, your in a heap of trouble. This is not me talking, but Paul; for he is warning you to be watching out for the Antichrist, for he is a copy of exactly what you expect of Christ. The Antichrist [Satan] will have supernatural powers, and he will come first, before our Lord Jesus Christ.

    We are given the exact time of the Antichrist's arrival upon the earth in Revelation 9:1. It is at the sounding of the FIFTH TRUMPET. The trumpets are sounded in order, and the fifth trumpet is prior to the seventh. It can't be that hard to understand. Satan will be God to all the people of the world, including all Christians who do NOT have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads], to know the truth. The fall is because they will not take the simplicity and understanding in which Christ taught.

    The whole purpose for Paul to write the II Thessalonians letter, was to warn that church, as well as the churches of today, of the errors in teaching that others were making of his first letter. Don't expect Christ's return to soon, for these things of II Thessalonians 2:1-4 must take place first.

    II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Paul is again reminding them.

    II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

    "And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"

    The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

    II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

    There is no mystery around when this will take place, for we will know his methods of operation [withholdeth], and the signs, the seasons, and the times of Satan's arrival to earth. If you are in the Word of God and not following these "one verse preachers", you will know when to expect the Antichrist. You will also know within hours of when to expect our Lord Jesus Christ's return. Satan's reign on earth is not seven years because God reduced that time to five months for the "elect's" sake, as Jesus told us in Matthew 24:22. Jesus also revealed that the time is shortened to five months, to John in Revelation 9:5, and 10.

    The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

    "Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

    Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

    It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

    Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

    Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

    Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

    This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

    Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

    II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

    "The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

    Then Christ will destroy Satan

    https://www.theseason.org/2thess/2thess2.htm

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