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Thread: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

  1. #31
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by n2thelight View Post
    Where did you get "departure"from?
    There is a debate here about whether the "apostasia" refers to a departure of the Church from the earth before the Tribulation, or about the Apostasy led by Antichrist upon the earth. I believe it is the latter. To insert a Pretrib Rapture in these verses makes no sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by n2thelight
    II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

    Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

    It's important in this final generation that we pay attention for this will happen during our life time. The subject again of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".
    Yes, it's about the traditional gathering of the Church to Christ at his 2nd Coming, at the end of the age. This is how Jesus depicted his Coming, as taking place *after the Tribulation.*

    Quote Originally Posted by n2thelight
    II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

    Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. This is why he makes it plain and simple; Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him. This is because there was a confusing part in the first letter where false teachers had crept in and twisted Paul's words. The prime example of this today is the twisting of that first letter by the "rapture theorist", to form the trap that has been set for Christians in this final generation.
    I agree. The trap is the confusion created by Pretrib Rapture thinking that distracts our attention away from satanic deceptions that currently exist. Instead of expecting a Pretrib Rapture "at any moment," it is our job to preach the gospel, and to watch against satanic deceptions that would lead men astray.

    This is, I believe, what Paul was concerned with, that we recognize Antichrist and Satan are deceivers. Just as Antichrist will, in the future, deceive men, so Satan is presently deceiving men, including Christians. He is cleverly distracting men away from the dangers that presently exist, so as to catch them off guard and derail them.

    Quote Originally Posted by n2thelight
    Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is one of those tradition's of men [false doctrines] that can deceive you.

    II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

    Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

    The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].
    Antichrist is called "the son of perdition" because Dan 7 depicts him as *destroyed* at the coming of the Kingdom of Christ. I'll leave it at that. We agree.

  2. #32
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think dan, in posting #8 unwittingly sidetracked the thread and a few of us followed the new path about the right to weapons for self defense. In my posting #11, last paragraph, I wrote the following;



    I am pleased to see my earlier observation demonstrated here. Your posting attributes the evil in London to;
    • Whether the Mayor is adequate or not
    • Past governments with their policies
    • Maligning young people
    • Minorities
    • Tuition fees hike
    • Brexit
    • Socialist benefits, or lack of them
    • Government not privileging the minorities
    • The inability to afford higher education

    The Gnostic always blames his environment. The Bible attributes the evil to the depraved nature of men. How I look forward to the Millennium were the Lord's choice is "the rule of the rod of iron". Man's inherent depravity will be met head on with immediate and commensurate justice, and those who don't work will not eat - simple (2nd Thess.3:10-12).
    Thank you Walls for setting the record straight.

    I personally don't share the Gnostic view anyway. To highlight the error of the Gnostic conviction, the garden of Eden did not make Adam sin, the same way environment does not force a man to kill. In my post yesterday, I linked the recent spike in murders across London to the actions or lack thereof of our government, not our environment.

  3. #33
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Thank you Walls for setting the record straight.

    I personally don't share the Gnostic view anyway. To highlight the error of the Gnostic conviction, the garden of Eden did not make Adam sin, the same way environment does not force a man to kill. In my post yesterday, I linked the recent spike in murders across London to the actions or lack thereof of our government, not our environment.
    Well, I haven't really been part of these particular arguments, so I don't really know if my view plays in this, or not? My wife and two of my "kids" are English, and we regularly connect with our English relatives. They come over here (to the US) and we go over there.

    Some of our relatives over there are like conservatives over here--they hate the Muslim invasion, along with some of the minority groups, thinking they are abusive of the English people. They also believe that Muslims are diluting English culture, and actually trying to subvert it. They want to exit the EU, and are upset that May is not accomodating them. And they are somewhat dissatisfied with the Social System that keeps people waiting in long lines for government services, especially health care.

    This is what conservatives in our country are hoping to avoid. And that's why we voted for Trump. The Media is largely liberal over here, as it is over there. So the way the people really feel isn't being properly represented in the news. For example, the Media here declared in the last election that Trump was going to get "killed" in the elections, that Hillary Clinton would win the presidency by a landslide. They supported this with numerous polls and expert input. What a joke!

    We are actually pretty much divided between conservatives and liberals in our country, though the media gives the liberals a decided advantage, making it appear as if all America agrees with them. You may also believe your own media, who would sell you what's best for the elite in your country, and not what actually works for the people.

    Disarming people does not end violence. It makes the people vulnerable to government control. The government has much less fear in imposing policies when the people cannot defend themselves and their homes.

    Violence does indeed come from Mulsim minorities, who do not respect British rules, and place Sharia law above all other law. They have a "superior" attitude, and would vote as a bloc against British interests. They would justify violence and even lie about it in the name of their religion. The Muslim mayor of London is a creep to me. I can't stand him.

    If you've been duped into fighting for the rights of all, you are in direct opposition to the 10 Commandments, the 1st of which commands you *not* to tolerate other religions. We are not a theocracy, but we are supposed to be "Christian countries." Therefore, we allow freedom of conscience, but will not tolerate lies and violence in the name of religion.

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, I haven't really been part of these particular arguments, so I don't really know if my view plays in this, or not? My wife and two of my "kids" are English, and we regularly connect with our English relatives. They come over here (to the US) and we go over there.

    Some of our relatives over there are like conservatives over here--they hate the Muslim invasion, along with some of the minority groups, thinking they are abusive of the English people. They also believe that Muslims are diluting English culture, and actually trying to subvert it. They want to exit the EU, and are upset that May is not accomodating them. And they are somewhat dissatisfied with the Social System that keeps people waiting in long lines for government services, especially health care.

    This is what conservatives in our country are hoping to avoid. And that's why we voted for Trump. The Media is largely liberal over here, as it is over there. So the way the people really feel isn't being properly represented in the news. For example, the Media here declared in the last election that Trump was going to get "killed" in the elections, that Hillary Clinton would win the presidency by a landslide. They supported this with numerous polls and expert input. What a joke!

    We are actually pretty much divided between conservatives and liberals in our country, though the media gives the liberals a decided advantage, making it appear as if all America agrees with them. You may also believe your own media, who would sell you what's best for the elite in your country, and not what actually works for the people.

    Disarming people does not end violence. It makes the people vulnerable to government control. The government has much less fear in imposing policies when the people cannot defend themselves and their homes.

    Violence does indeed come from Mulsim minorities, who do not respect British rules, and place Sharia law above all other law. They have a "superior" attitude, and would vote as a bloc against British interests. They would justify violence and even lie about it in the name of their religion. The Muslim mayor of London is a creep to me. I can't stand him.

    If you've been duped into fighting for the rights of all, you are in direct opposition to the 10 Commandments, the 1st of which commands you *not* to tolerate other religions. We are not a theocracy, but we are supposed to be "Christian countries." Therefore, we allow freedom of conscience, but will not tolerate lies and violence in the name of religion.
    I am a Christian and the Spirit of God in me requires me to say things as they are. I can't stand Muslims, however, I can't blame them for everything that is wrong in my country. Unfortunately, your views are somewhat coloured by trends in America which do not always apply in the UK. For example, we don't need to "arm" ourselves to stop our government from implementing unwanted policies.

    Your remarks about Muslims in the UK are on point. But the topic is about the recent spike in murders in London and this has no Muslim face to it. These killing are mostly perpetuated by Christians, black-on-black violence according to the Metropolitan Police. I would gladly blame the Muslims for it if there is a shred of evidence, but none exists. The Muslims have their own area of crime, but they are not involved in teenagers and young adults stabbed daily on our streets.

  5. #35
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am a Christian and the Spirit of God in me requires me to say things as they are. I can't stand Muslims, however, I can't blame them for everything that is wrong in my country. Unfortunately, your views are somewhat coloured by trends in America which do not always apply in the UK. For example, we don't need to "arm" ourselves to stop our government from implementing unwanted policies.

    Your remarks about Muslims in the UK are on point. But the topic is about the recent spike in murders in London and this has no Muslim face to it. These killing are mostly perpetuated by Christians, black-on-black violence according to the Metropolitan Police. I would gladly blame the Muslims for it if there is a shred of evidence, but none exists. The Muslims have their own area of crime, but they are not involved in teenagers and young adults stabbed daily on our streets.
    I live in an area which is about 50% Muslim. My church is in an area which for the last 30 years has been about 80% Muslim.
    They need to hear the gospel. They need repentance as much as everyone else. Some of them are truly seeking and others are simply trying the best they can with what they understand.
    Sin is not limited to one religion or people or race.
    The killings in our nations are those who might be classed as Christian, but by their deeds we see they are not. This is a different issue.

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I live in an area which is about 50% Muslim. My church is in an area which for the last 30 years has been about 80% Muslim.
    They need to hear the gospel. They need repentance as much as everyone else. Some of them are truly seeking and others are simply trying the best they can with what they understand.
    Sin is not limited to one religion or people or race.
    The killings in our nations are those who might be classed as Christian, but by their deeds we see they are not. This is a different issue.
    I agree with you because testimonies of Muslim converts abound to attest the yearning of many of them for the Truth. Unfortunately, most of them as intimidated by the threat of violence from Jihadists or, of being ostracized that they only respond to the Gospel in secret until they are bold enough to openly confess Christ. Like Jesus said, the harvest is plentiful but the labourers are few.

    Once again, I concur that not all that has a Christian name or born into a Christian family is actually a Christian. Copied below is a list of the victims so far.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ms-of-violence

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes I believe so. Nero fulfilled this when he set himself up as God over everything including the church which Paul tells us is the temple of God
    From this..



    NERO CLAVD(IVS) CAESAR AVG(VSTVS) GERM(ANICVS) P(ONTIFEX) M(AXIMVS) TR(IBVNICIA) P(OTESTATE) IMP(ERATOR) P(ATER) P(ATRIAE): Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, pontifex maximus, with tribunician power, imperator, father of the country.

    To This..




    Jude
    A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

    ~ Smith Wigglesworth


  8. #38
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am a Christian and the Spirit of God in me requires me to say things as they are. I can't stand Muslims, however, I can't blame them for everything that is wrong in my country. Unfortunately, your views are somewhat coloured by trends in America which do not always apply in the UK. For example, we don't need to "arm" ourselves to stop our government from implementing unwanted policies.

    Your remarks about Muslims in the UK are on point. But the topic is about the recent spike in murders in London and this has no Muslim face to it. These killing are mostly perpetuated by Christians, black-on-black violence according to the Metropolitan Police. I would gladly blame the Muslims for it if there is a shred of evidence, but none exists. The Muslims have their own area of crime, but they are not involved in teenagers and young adults stabbed daily on our streets.
    While I was over there the Manchester bombing took place (May of 2017), due to this incursion of Muslims into Britain. There have been stabbings in the street, as well as the assortment of terrorist attacks--all caused by radical Muslims. So I have two things to say about it.

    One, if people were armed there would be greater immediate defense against some of the attacks. Obviously, some deaths and some attacks cannot be stopped with hand guns.

    But two, how is it that unpopular policies are pushed forward by government policies? It is, I believe, because the government controls the media, to some degree, and also sees no resistance from the people.

    For example, the media can convince people that to stop European integration and to oppose Islamic immigration is discriminatory and bigoted. Then the leftists in your country will join with those who oppose discrimination to form a majority in support of your government.

    But what if the people were armed? Do you think the government will feel so empowered to implement anti-British policies? I don't think so. Since you have been disarmed for a long time now, you may not realize how much the government has manipulated you into letting these things take place?

    In other words, arming the public has a greater effect on government than you may realize. A government cannot last long that imposes its way, violently, upon its people. And that would be necessary if there was armed resistance to government policies.

    I'm not of course suggested that you do what the French have done, throwing up barricades in the streets and producing a bloody revolution. But in reality, an increasingly tyrannical government can come into play at any time, and there does need to be a *threat* of armed resistance to hold back the forces of manipulation and control. For me this is a no-brainer.

  9. #39
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    While I was over there the Manchester bombing took place (May of 2017), due to this incursion of Muslims into Britain. There have been stabbings in the street, as well as the assortment of terrorist attacks--all caused by radical Muslims. So I have two things to say about it.

    One, if people were armed there would be greater immediate defense against some of the attacks. Obviously, some deaths and some attacks cannot be stopped with hand guns.
    Wouldn't have stopped the Manchester bombings or any of the other bombings that have occurred.

    But two, how is it that unpopular policies are pushed forward by government policies? It is, I believe, because the government controls the media, to some degree, and also sees no resistance from the people.
    Is this any different in any other country? Is the media controlled by the government?
    The media is generally far more left (liberal) leaning.

    For example, the media can convince people that to stop European integration and to oppose Islamic immigration is discriminatory and bigoted. Then the leftists in your country will join with those who oppose discrimination to form a majority in support of your government.
    They already tried to do this. The media and the government failed.

    But what if the people were armed? Do you think the government will feel so empowered to implement anti-British policies? I don't think so. Since you have been disarmed for a long time now, you may not realize how much the government has manipulated you into letting these things take place?
    Makes no difference UNLESS you advocate mob rule. The ONLY thing arming the general population does is prevent a military coup or dictatorship.
    You speak as if every government leans the same way or pushes for the same things.

    In other words, arming the public has a greater effect on government than you may realize. A government cannot last long that imposes its way, violently, upon its people. And that would be necessary if there was armed resistance to government policies.
    I agree if it was violently imposing its will. The reality though is that it is through education and other methods that it manipulates. Thus the raison d'etre of arming people is non-existent. What is really needed is the TRUTH to be preached.
    In fact when you arm the people, then you also need to arm the police. This is not the normal situation in the UK.

    I'm not of course suggested that you do what the French have done, throwing up barricades in the streets and producing a bloody revolution. But in reality, an increasingly tyrannical government can come into play at any time, and there does need to be a *threat* of armed resistance to hold back the forces of manipulation and control. For me this is a no-brainer.
    Is the UK government increasingly tyrannical? Weird, I thought it was working to enact the will of people as shown in the referendum.
    It actually requires considerable thought and a realisation of where people are. One poster on here argues that because citizens are armed you won't have the AC taking control. It is unfortunately a ludicrous suggestion.
    Pay attention to how the Taliban gained power in Afghanistan and areas of Pakistan. these were armed people, but who were led to believe the people who they started to follow would lead them to the promised land - their guns were turned into weapons for terrorism.

  10. #40
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wouldn't have stopped the Manchester bombings or any of the other bombings that have occurred.


    Is this any different in any other country? Is the media controlled by the government?
    The media is generally far more left (liberal) leaning.


    They already tried to do this. The media and the government failed.


    Makes no difference UNLESS you advocate mob rule. The ONLY thing arming the general population does is prevent a military coup or dictatorship.
    You speak as if every government leans the same way or pushes for the same things.


    I agree if it was violently imposing its will. The reality though is that it is through education and other methods that it manipulates. Thus the raison d'etre of arming people is non-existent. What is really needed is the TRUTH to be preached.
    In fact when you arm the people, then you also need to arm the police. This is not the normal situation in the UK.


    Is the UK government increasingly tyrannical? Weird, I thought it was working to enact the will of people as shown in the referendum.
    It actually requires considerable thought and a realisation of where people are. One poster on here argues that because citizens are armed you won't have the AC taking control. It is unfortunately a ludicrous suggestion.
    Pay attention to how the Taliban gained power in Afghanistan and areas of Pakistan. these were armed people, but who were led to believe the people who they started to follow would lead them to the promised land - their guns were turned into weapons for terrorism.
    Since this is actually off topic, I'll leave off for now. Thanks for your reply.

  11. #41
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    While I was over there the Manchester bombing took place (May of 2017), due to this incursion of Muslims into Britain. There have been stabbings in the street, as well as the assortment of terrorist attacks--all caused by radical Muslims. So I have two things to say about it.
    While I loathe the influx of Muslims in the UK, the recent spike in murder across the capital, London cannot be pinned on Muslims. Try as much as you like to make it a Muslim issue, it is simply not. On the Muslim/terrorist threat, our intelligent agencies (which I believe are the best in the world given their success rate in thwarting 95% of intended terrorist attacks across the nation) don't need every citizen armed to help them. This is most commendable given the high population ratio of Muslims in the UK compared to the USA.

    Our success and safety for the population have not come about because every UK citizen has a handgun in their home.

    One, if people were armed there would be greater immediate defense against some of the attacks. Obviously, some deaths and some attacks cannot be stopped with hand guns.
    All the guns in America have not stopped terrorism in America, have they?

    But two, how is it that unpopular policies are pushed forward by government policies? It is, I believe, because the government controls the media, to some degree, and also sees no resistance from the people.

    For example, the media can convince people that to stop European integration and to oppose Islamic immigration is discriminatory and bigoted. Then the leftists in your country will join with those who oppose discrimination to form a majority in support of your government.

    But what if the people were armed? Do you think the government will feel so empowered to implement anti-British policies? I don't think so. Since you have been disarmed for a long time now, you may not realize how much the government has manipulated you into letting these things take place?

    In other words, arming the public has a greater effect on government than you may realize. A government cannot last long that imposes its way, violently, upon its people. And that would be necessary if there was armed resistance to government policies.

    I'm not of course suggested that you do what the French have done, throwing up barricades in the streets and producing a bloody revolution. But in reality, an increasingly tyrannical government can come into play at any time, and there does need to be a *threat* of armed resistance to hold back the forces of manipulation and control. For me this is a no-brainer.
    I can name a zillion unpopular policies that various US administrations have implemented over the years. For example, despite the irrefutable effects of Global Warming, Donald Trump denies it is real and pulled America out of the World Body dedicated to combat it. If this isn't a bad policy, I don't know what it is. Yet, I didn't see Americans up in arms to force him or Congress to reverse this nor any of the other unpalatable policies by various US administrations?

    Since the end of the English civil war (1642-1651), English democracy embodied in our Parliamentary system has evolved and improved on the provisions of Magna Carta to ensure the rights of man; freedom and liberty, etc. The execution of King Charles I in 1649 marked a departure from absolute monarchy in England. Consequently, Parliament doesn't have free reign to do as it pleases. There are checks and balances and oversights in place to ensure that the will of the people, through their elected members of parliament (MP) is done. A recent example is Brexit: the govt wanted us to remain in the EU, but the people have had enough and wanted out and said so via a Referendum which the govt has respected.

    I understand the US Constitutional provision for self-defence, the right to bear arms, etc. But I fail to understand your insistence that UK citizens should ignore our over 500 years history of letting Parliament work for us? Rather, we should suddenly take up arms against our govt's perceived ill-judged policies; something Americans haven't been able to do despite the number of guns per citizen? If Americans trust their Congress for policies that guide every aspect of civic life, I wonder why you question our trust in our Parliament to do the same?

    The American war on the Media was orchestrated by Trump when he wrongfully assumed he would lose to Hillary Clinton. And despite his win, his unconventional approach as president has not endeared him to the majority of Americans. This is reflected in the media, but instead of accepting it for what it is, suddenly, the media in disagreement, is liberal and the enemy. In this regard, the media stands for everything that opposes the true essence of America and if you're to be taken seriously, the UK as well. Fortunately, we don't agree with you.

    I'm really scratching my head to make sense of where you are going with this argument?

  12. #42
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wouldn't have stopped the Manchester bombings or any of the other bombings that have occurred.


    Is this any different in any other country? Is the media controlled by the government?
    The media is generally far more left (liberal) leaning.


    They already tried to do this. The media and the government failed.

    Makes no difference UNLESS you advocate mob rule. The ONLY thing arming the general population does is prevent a military coup or dictatorship.
    You speak as if every government leans the same way or pushes for the same things.

    I agree if it was violently imposing its will. The reality though is that it is through education and other methods that it manipulates. Thus the raison d'etre of arming people is non-existent. What is really needed is the TRUTH to be preached.
    In fact when you arm the people, then you also need to arm the police. This is not the normal situation in the UK.

    Is the UK government increasingly tyrannical? Weird, I thought it was working to enact the will of people as shown in the referendum.
    It actually requires considerable thought and a realisation of where people are. One poster on here argues that because citizens are armed you won't have the AC taking control. It is unfortunately a ludicrous suggestion.
    Pay attention to how the Taliban gained power in Afghanistan and areas of Pakistan. these were armed people, but who were led to believe the people who they started to follow would lead them to the promised land - their guns were turned into weapons for terrorism.
    Our dear Brother Randy, complained that your remarks here are "off topic" but on the contrary, I believe you appropriately addressed his comments in post #38.

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    While I loathe the influx of Muslims in the UK, the recent spike in murder across the capital, London cannot be pinned on Muslims. Try as much as you like to make it a Muslim issue, it is simply not. On the Muslim/terrorist threat, our intelligent agencies (which I believe are the best in the world given their success rate in thwarting 95% of intended terrorist attacks across the nation) don't need every citizen armed to help them. This is most commendable given the high population ratio of Muslims in the UK compared to the USA.

    Our success and safety for the population have not come about because every UK citizen has a handgun in their home.



    All the guns in America have not stopped terrorism in America, have they?



    I can name a zillion unpopular policies that various US administrations have implemented over the years. For example, despite the irrefutable effects of Global Warming, Donald Trump denies it is real and pulled America out of the World Body dedicated to combat it. If this isn't a bad policy, I don't know what it is. Yet, I didn't see Americans up in arms to force him or Congress to reverse this nor any of the other unpalatable policies by various US administrations?

    Since the end of the English civil war (1642-1651), English democracy embodied in our Parliamentary system has evolved and improved on the provisions of Magna Carta to ensure the rights of man; freedom and liberty, etc. The execution of King Charles I in 1649 marked a departure from absolute monarchy in England. Consequently, Parliament doesn't have free reign to do as it pleases. There are checks and balances and oversights in place to ensure that the will of the people, through their elected members of parliament (MP) is done. A recent example is Brexit: the govt wanted us to remain in the EU, but the people have had enough and wanted out and said so via a Referendum which the govt has respected.

    I understand the US Constitutional provision for self-defence, the right to bear arms, etc. But I fail to understand your insistence that UK citizens should ignore our over 500 years history of letting Parliament work for us? Rather, we should suddenly take up arms against our govt's perceived ill-judged policies; something Americans haven't been able to do despite the number of guns per citizen? If Americans trust their Congress for policies that guide every aspect of civic life, I wonder why you question our trust in our Parliament to do the same?

    The American war on the Media was orchestrated by Trump when he wrongfully assumed he would lose to Hillary Clinton. And despite his win, his unconventional approach as president has not endeared him to the majority of Americans. This is reflected in the media, but instead of accepting it for what it is, suddenly, the media in disagreement, is liberal and the enemy. In this regard, the media stands for everything that opposes the true essence of America and if you're to be taken seriously, the UK as well. Fortunately, we don't agree with you.

    I'm really scratching my head to make sense of where you are going with this argument?
    Really, this is off topic in this particular forum, but certainly has a place somewhere? And it deserves a lot more attention than I can give it here. Some really good points worth responding to.

    Let me just say in brief that I have the highest respect from Great Britain. My wife laughed when I stood for the 1st time in front of the Parliament building. I think my pic of the Eye here came from that day! I stood and stared, thinking about the storied history of England. I have something of a love for history, which creates a depth of viewpoint. England has played such a big place in the history of the world for such a relatively small country!

    British government has indeed evolved a respectable parliamentary system. But just like our Congress, it is only as good as the people. If the country loses its Christianity, its representatives falter as well.

    You completely miss my argument for our 2nd Amendment--the right to bear arms. That has a dual purpose, neither of which is to oppose our government. It stands as a warning to our government that it should never move beyond the will of the people. But when the media joins a government elite to deceive the people, then a disarmed people stand as little threat to government overreach.

    The other reason for the right to bear arms is simply for personal protection in our homes. As a country becomes less Christian acts of violence and rape will increase. Unprotected homes will be victims of this, as things get worse. You will see.

    Anyway, we are way off topic, and should probably leave at this, until we deal with these things more properly? Incidentally, you're way off from my view of the Trump presidency. The Left in our country has completely lost its Christian soul, and has now become a virtual "Antichrist" in my view.

    Representing freedom for all religions and all lifestyles the political Left promotes a kind of pluralism that is positively antichristian. Christianity is viewed by them as the enemy to freedom.

    And so Trump is hated for wanting to go back to the old America, that does not blend in with all other religions and peoples. He stands up for the old Christian America, and so is hated by the elite who benefit from the freedom other religions offer.

    The Lefttst elite wants no moral constraints to their greed and abuse of cheap labor. They claim to be taking the high road, but actually, they have turned to violence, slander, and cheap gossip. That's all I'll say for now...

  14. #44
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Our dear Brother Randy, complained that your remarks here are "off topic" but on the contrary, I believe you appropriately addressed his comments in post #38.
    Brother, I'm not "complaining." I'm always worried about being chastised for going off topic, because I tend to wander. I have no complaints about either of you guys! You're some of my favorite arguers. Glory has something of an "attitude," sometimes, but it's okay. I have to "try hard" too!

  15. Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    I don't think 2 Thess 2 has happenned yet

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