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Thread: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

  1. #46
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by DancesWithGnostics View Post
    I don't think 2 Thess 2 has happenned yet
    The spirit of lawlessness is already here, and is happening. But the revelation of the Man of Sin has obviously not yet happened. I don't know how some can say otherwise?

  2. #47
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Really, this is off topic in this particular forum, but certainly has a place somewhere? And it deserves a lot more attention than I can give it here. Some really good points worth responding to.

    Let me just say in brief that I have the highest respect from Great Britain. My wife laughed when I stood for the 1st time in front of the Parliament building. I think my pic of the Eye here came from that day! I stood and stared, thinking about the storied history of England. I have something of a love for history, which creates a depth of viewpoint. England has played such a big place in the history of the world for such a relatively small country!

    British government has indeed evolved a respectable parliamentary system. But just like our Congress, it is only as good as the people. If the country loses its Christianity, its representatives falter as well.

    You completely miss my argument for our 2nd Amendment--the right to bear arms. That has a dual purpose, neither of which is to oppose our government. It stands as a warning to our government that it should never move beyond the will of the people. But when the media joins a government elite to deceive the people, then a disarmed people stand as little threat to government overreach.

    The other reason for the right to bear arms is simply for personal protection in our homes. As a country becomes less Christian acts of violence and rape will increase. Unprotected homes will be victims of this, as things get worse. You will see.

    Anyway, we are way off topic, and should probably leave at this, until we deal with these things more properly? Incidentally, you're way off from my view of the Trump presidency. The Left in our country has completely lost its Christian soul, and has now become a virtual "Antichrist" in my view.

    Representing freedom for all religions and all lifestyles the political Left promotes a kind of pluralism that is positively antichristian. Christianity is viewed by them as the enemy to freedom.

    And so Trump is hated for wanting to go back to the old America, that does not blend in with all other religions and peoples. He stands up for the old Christian America, and so is hated by the elite who benefit from the freedom other religions offer.

    The Lefttst elite wants no moral constraints to their greed and abuse of cheap labor. They claim to be taking the high road, but actually, they have turned to violence, slander, and cheap gossip. That's all I'll say for now...
    We both have a lot to say on this can of worms you opened. But you are right, this is not the place

  3. #48
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    We both have a lot to say on this can of worms you opened. But you are right, this is not the place
    Yes, we can go fishing together some other time!

  4. #49

    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Not really. Many, many governments in history have had a strong central government that oppressed the people and had plenty of firepower to resist invasions and defend the populace. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?

    In fact I would say that *most* governments in history have had a strong central government, leading to inevitable abuses of power. What government, among these many, have *not* had power to defend themselves against invading armies?

    My argument is that the decentralization of the central government, or a "weakened" central government, requires arming the public against a government that constantly tends towards centralization and oppression.
    I don't think you misunderstand, but you might not realize how many men it takes to defend a border?

    I would contend that virtually every European country, if not depending on NATO, could defend their own country.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tary_personnel
    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    I don't think you misunderstand, but you might not realize how many men it takes to defend a border?

    I would contend that virtually every European country, if not depending on NATO, could defend their own country.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tary_personnel
    I've lost the point you're trying to make, if I really understood it to start with. Could you summarize?

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    I don't think you misunderstand, but you might not realize how many men it takes to defend a border?

    I would contend that virtually every European country, if not depending on NATO, could defend their own country.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tary_personnel
    I'm not sure whether you are arguing that no European nation can defend themselves without NATO or that irrespective of NATO, they can?

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    About 2:7, more specifically; ... Who is the "Restrainer"? If we say; The Holy Spirit; then how do we know he's "removed"? How is the Holy Spirits "removal"; an obvious event? Same thing; if that's Michael. Same thing if that's the church; as in Rapture?
    Would the removal of the "Restrainer"; need to be an obvious event?

  8. #53
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    withholdeth means to hold fast or hinder, something that stands in the way

    revealed means to be uncovered, as in being exposed. Unveiled as in taking the veil which hides who he truly is and removing it to show the truth. This does not mean to show a lie or introduce the fake to the world.

    "in his time" means "in due season" or the right time to do something.

    the he is speaking of the previous subject, which was the AC sitting in Gods temple pretending to be Christ. I think paul is telling us NOT when satan is first appearing to the world, but when he is first exposed as a fake to the world!



    2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    "only" can mean "but"

    3440

    3440 monon {mon'-on}

    from 3441;; adv n

    AV - only 62, alone 3, but 1; 66

    1) only, alone, but


    "now" actually is a word meaning "now" or "this very moment"


    letteth is the same word translated "withholdeth"

    "will let" is added


    "he be taken" is a single word meaning "to become"

    2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what [stands in the way] that [the antiChrist] might be [exposed as a fake] in [the right time]
    2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: [but] [right now] [something stands in the way], until [it becomes] out of the way. [or removed]


    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And [at that time] shall that Wicked be [exposed], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Is that not what happens when Christ returns?? Is not satan exposed for the fake he is when Christ appears?


    Paul is telling us NOT when satan is first appearing to the world, but when he is first exposed as a fake to the world!


    2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him [Ac], whose [presence] is [like] the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


    we've covered this verse before and we learned that the word "after" in this verse really meant to be "like" or "similar to"…because the Ac is like satan, being that it IS satan.

    So why you ask does Paul say this Wicked person comes "after" the workings of Satan?


    Because it is Satan. He comes "after" or LIKE Satan because he is satan...this AntiChrist role Satan will play is "like" himself because Satan likes to deceive with "power and signs and lying wonders"


    This is like saying "the Terminator is after or like the working of Arnold Schwarzenegger". Why is that? Because the Terminator is a ROLE Schwarzenegger played and was in fact Schwarzenegger all along. The AntiChrist will also be a ROLE that Satan plays, and yes, will have been Satan all along too. Don't be deceived.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Are you suggesting; the restrainer, is satan?

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by GenJesus View Post
    About 2:7, more specifically; ... Who is the "Restrainer"? If we say; The Holy Spirit; then how do we know he's "removed"? How is the Holy Spirits "removal"; an obvious event? Same thing; if that's Michael. Same thing if that's the church; as in Rapture?
    Would the removal of the "Restrainer"; need to be an obvious event?
    I've tried most views of this, and even one not commonly mentioned. However, I fall back on the one historically understood, which is that Roman government encompassed, and yet restrained, the revelation of Antichrist. Rome had the spirit of lawlessness, and yet until it broke into 10 separate states the Antichrist could not come. In other words, Roman unity prevented Antichrist's revelation.

    The real question for me was, Why didn't Paul just state who the Restrainer was, since he is referring to a personal entity? As in a number of these cases, Rome itself is not identified because it was the power in authority. It would be ill-advised to mention Rome straight foward with some kind of negative insinuation.

    And so, it is the Roman government that restrains Antichrist, and yet retains its lawless spirit. That's how the Early Church saw it, and I think that's how Paul meant it. And quite frankly, Daniel made it clear that the 4th Beast, which I think was Rome, was the last great beast on earth before Christ's Kingdom. And this Beast had to evolve into 10 kings before Antichrist rose to lead them. That should provide the answer to the question as to who "restrains" him.

  11. #56
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by GenJesus View Post
    Are you suggesting; the restrainer, is satan?
    No, it's time .
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #57

    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'm not sure whether you are arguing that no European nation can defend themselves without NATO or that irrespective of NATO, they can?
    Oops! I was trying to say that no European Country could defend their own country's borders without Nato.

    In addition, 23 out of 28 Nato countries deems it unnecessary to pay it's Nato Dues, which appears to say to the world, "We don't want to be saved from Communism."
    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by GenJesus View Post
    Are you suggesting; the restrainer, is satan?
    I believe the restrainer is Satan. 2Thess 2 is a contrast between an identity kept secret, and then a sudden revealing of the antichrist.

    God is not in the habit of keeping evil secrets, he exposes evil.

    The timing of the revealing of the antichrist occurs 3.5 years before the end, which is the SAME timing as the fall of Satan from heaven in Rev 12.

    Thus Satan loses his place in Rev 12 at the SAME TIME as the restrainer is removed from his place in 2 Thessalonians 2

  14. #59
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I believe the restrainer is Satan. 2Thess 2 is a contrast between an identity kept secret, and then a sudden revealing of the antichrist.

    God is not in the habit of keeping evil secrets, he exposes evil.
    He certainly does expose...


    Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

    G601
    apokalupto¯
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
    1a) disclose, make bare
    2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
    Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

    The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

    And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.



    Matthew Henry

    II. A revelation of that man of sin, that is (2Th_2:3), antichrist would take his rise from this general apostasy. The apostle afterwards speaks of the revelation of that wicked one (2Th_2:8), intimating the discovery which should be made of his wickedness, in order to his ruin
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    II Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    The mystery of iniquity was already at work when the book of Thessalonians was written.. It was at work when our Lord was crucified.. the Roman empire under the rule the Caesars who were considered to be deity..

    Following Julius Caesar who in 42 BCE was formally deified as "the Divine Julius", and Caesar Augustus henceforth became Divi filius ("Son of the Divine One"), some (not all) Roman Emperors of the 1st to 4th centuries claimed divinity, including Tiberius 14–37, Caligula 37–41, Claudius 41–54, Hadrian 117–138, Commodus 161–192, Constantine I 306–312, Julian the Apostate 361–363 (wikipedia.org)

    The Roman empire fell only to be replaced with the system of Antichrist..

    II Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    That system has been in existence since the fall of the Roman empire..


    Jude
    A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

    ~ Smith Wigglesworth


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