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Thread: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

  1. #61
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    He certainly does expose...


    Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

    G601
    apokaluptoĮ
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
    1a) disclose, make bare
    2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
    Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

    The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

    And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.

    Matthew Henry
    I'm battling with that logic, because the revealing is associated with the coming to power of the antichrist , and then he rules for 42 months until the service coming. So because of that timing I see v8 as referring to the later destruction at the second coming.

    So the removal of the restrainer occurs 42 months before the second coming, which just happens to co-incide with the removal of Satan in Rev 12.

    We may disagree on the timing, but at least we both agree that it is the secrecy that is restrained until the mystery is revealed, not the lawlessness itself being restrained:
    And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed

  2. #62
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I'm battling with that logic, because the revealing is associated with the coming to power of the antichrist , and then he rules for 42 months until the service coming. So because of that timing I see v8 as referring to the later destruction at the second coming.

    But "revealed" doesn't mean "to appear" but to expose the truth about something so it matches the way I have explained it. The AC appears which causes the Apostasy, then the second coming reveals or uncovers who the AC had been, the man of sin and he is destroyed. Can you explain how an Apostasy can happen before the one who claims to be God appears?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #63
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    But "revealed" doesn't mean "to appear" but to expose the truth about something so it matches the way I have explained it. The AC appears which causes the Apostasy, then the second coming reveals or uncovers who the AC had been, the man of sin and he is destroyed. Can you explain how an Apostasy can happen before the one who claims to be God appears?
    Earlier in verse 3 and 4 the revealing is associated with the beginning of the antichrist's power, not with the ending. So your way may be possible, but on the balance of logic it appears 2 Thessalonians 2 is associating the revealing with the appearance and coming to power of the antichrist:

    Donít let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in Godís temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

  4. #64
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Earlier in verse 3 and 4 the revealing is associated with the beginning of the antichrist's power, not with the ending.
    Verse 3 is the ending, verse 4 is the summary. The beginning is not mentioned and need not to be since the result of his initial existence is the cause of the Apostasy to him from Christ.



    So your way may be possible, but on the balance of logic it appears 2 Thessalonians 2 is associating the revealing with the appearance and coming to power of the antichrist:

    Believe as you wish.


    Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
    The "rebellion" does not happen before the leader of the rebellion exists to cause the rebellion....that's my point from the start of this.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #65
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Verse 3 is the ending, verse 4 is the summary. The beginning is not mentioned and need not to be since the result of his initial existence is the cause of the Apostasy to him from Christ.






    Believe as you wish.




    The "rebellion" does not happen before the leader of the rebellion exists to cause the rebellion....that's my point from the start of this.
    Cool, we obviously read the chapter differently. I feel that the antichrist is revealed when he starts his reign. Not when he ends his reign. In fact the start of his reign is well described in Rev 13 and 2 Thess 2, I see no reason why this would not reveal him to the church. Logically therefore he is revealed to us at the start of his reign.

    Not only that, Satan is removed at that same moment and falls to earth for his reign of wrath here on earth. So the evil secrecy of the antichrist over the ages is removed the moment the beast comes to power, which is the same moment Satan is removed from heaven 1260 days (42 months) before the end, as per Rev 12. Satan keeps the identity of the antichrist secret, Satan is removed through the gospel, the succesful testimony of the church according to Rev 12. The removal of satan occurs when the antichrist is revealed, the same time the restrainer of the antichrist's exposure is removed according to 2 Thess 2 .

    This all fits like a glove, yet people are blind to it.

  6. #66
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post

    This all fits like a glove, yet people are blind to it.
    Most of us feel the same exact way yet, how many can be correct?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #67
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Most of us feel the same exact way yet, how many can be correct?
    That is perfectly true. Often when we establish a position on these issues, our view is then difficult to change. But the beauty of these public forums is others can witness our discussions and compare the viewpoints to scripture and they can sometimes get a better feel for the truth than those embroiled in the debate.

    So in some way it is the observers who benefit more from these discussions than us. But it was great to compare ideas, and cool to see someone agrees on the emphasis of the secret identity being held back in the chapter. Instead of looking for a restrainer who holds back lawlessness (a good guy) we should be looking for a restrainer who keeps an evil identity secret (a bad guy who keeps secrets). The restrainer is the bad guy who keeps secrets.

  8. #68
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    But "revealed" doesn't mean "to appear" but to expose the truth about something so it matches the way I have explained it. The AC appears which causes the Apostasy, then the second coming reveals or uncovers who the AC had been, the man of sin and he is destroyed. Can you explain how an Apostasy can happen before the one who claims to be God appears?
    Actually when something is revealed something appears.
    Now what I think you are arguing is that the Beast is on earth BEFORE He reveals himself in the temple.
    I agree with you.
    In fact he will have been on earth since being released from the pit at the 5th trumpet.

    However He can't start reigning and demanding people worship him as god UNTIL he reveals himself as god.
    This means his reign CANNOT start UNTIL the revealing, and further the Great Tribulation CANNOT start UNTIL the revealing.

    The second coming is NOT connected with him being revealed. Nothing in 2 Thess 2 supports such a view. In fact it points to the opposite order, the revealing first and then the second coming.
    Now you may try to claim it is immediately after, but again the text doesn't say that, it highlights that this revealing will be seen (therefore known everywhere). This is NOT a revealing like Jesus, like lightning is seen from east to west, but that of the revealing of a man. Now technology does allow many to see this when it happens through internet and TV but still it is not the same.

    The AC is KNOWN for who he is by those who see him calling himself god.

  9. #69

    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    We shouldn't be too literal-- Revelation is highly symbolic. There is no literal Harlot drinking blood; no woman literally whisked away on the wings of an eagle; no literal Wormwood poisoning rivers-- etc.
    All these are symbolic, that's why they require interpretation.

    BTW the temple did see the splendor and presence of the Lord.

  10. #70
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    We shouldn't be too literal-- Revelation is highly symbolic. There is no literal Harlot drinking blood; no woman literally whisked away on the wings of an eagle; no literal Wormwood poisoning rivers-- etc.
    All these are symbolic, that's why they require interpretation.

    BTW the temple did see the splendor and presence of the Lord.
    Indeed it is highly symbolic, however we must recognise that these symbols represent something which IS literal.
    So the Harlot is representative of a real thing, the woman being whisked away is representative of a literal action etc.

    Somethings though are literal. And somethings blend the two even as our speech often mixes them up.
    Hence the forum and discussion as to what is the appropriate interpretation and which is symbol and which literal.

  11. #71

    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Indeed it is highly symbolic, however we must recognise that these symbols represent something which IS literal.
    So the Harlot is representative of a real thing, the woman being whisked away is representative of a literal action etc.

    Somethings though are literal. And somethings blend the two even as our speech often mixes them up.
    Hence the forum and discussion as to what is the appropriate interpretation and which is symbol and which literal.
    You are correct in the statement that symbolism represents a literal reality, the trick is to get it right. The point being: who does the Harlot represent?
    For many reasons, I say she is Jerusalem, since I believe Peter referred to Jerusalem and Babylon, and Isaiah 1:21 described Jerusalem as a prostitute.

  12. #72
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    You are correct in the statement that symbolism represents a literal reality, the trick is to get it right. The point being: who does the Harlot represent?
    For many reasons, I say she is Jerusalem, since I believe Peter referred to Jerusalem and Babylon, and Isaiah 1:21 described Jerusalem as a prostitute.
    Others hold the same view.
    However did Peter refer to Jerusalem as Babylon?
    In 1 Peter 5:13, he writes "She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chsen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son."
    Yet who is she and where was she?
    Also where was Peter?
    This is Peter's first letter.
    Where was he when he wrote it?
    Well intriguingly, some claim Rome and others Antioch. None say Jerusalem.
    So when Peter wrote this was he inferring the "she" was in a different location to himself, or the same?

    As to the point about Jerusalem being a prostitute, this is indeed true. Not only Isaiah but also Ezekiel 16 has the same thing.
    However Israel was called the whore, as was Judah (Jer 3). Samaria is also called a whore in Ezekiel 23.
    Hosea is an entire prophecy about a whore, and speaks of Israel.

    In the NT however Paul says Christians who go with a prostitute becomes one (1 Cor 6)
    And in Hebrews 11 and James 2 - Rahab is recalled as a prostitute, yet one who is saved.

    What we are clearly told about THIS prostitute in Rev 17 is that she is seated where there are people and multitudes and nations and languages. Is that a picture of Jerusalem?

    So the trick is indeed getting things right, however at the moment, all I have is a bit of speculation that Peter said that Jerusalem was Babylon - though tradition (and the letter itself) points to another location.
    A the fair point that Jerusalem WAS called a prostitute. Yet so was other places and the peoples, and it is questionable that tit is referring to the Old Covenant, and should in fact be pointing to the New.

  13. #73

    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've lost the point you're trying to make, if I really understood it to start with. Could you summarize?
    Maybe I should show you another view of the situation.

    Ever since Mumbai, SWAT teams all over the world have been trying to figure out how to overcome terrorist cells numbering from 50 to 200 and larger.

    Such cells could take over entire small towns and villages.

    You could wake up to children being beheaded on TV (and if they were to kill 144,000 in that manner, it might fulfill another prophecy, huh?).

    How many countries have a border security team and a wall to prevent it?

    And, if you ever wondered why anyone would want a wall, well, there you go!

    Right now, it has been said that they are catching 10 suspected or known terrorists at the Southern Border every day!

    It was commonly stated in the 80's that for every one that was captured at the border 10 got through.

    I don't know the accepted number today.
    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

  14. #74
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    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    Maybe I should show you another view of the situation.

    Ever since Mumbai, SWAT teams all over the world have been trying to figure out how to overcome terrorist cells numbering from 50 to 200 and larger.

    Such cells could take over entire small towns and villages.

    You could wake up to children being beheaded on TV (and if they were to kill 144,000 in that manner, it might fulfill another prophecy, huh?).

    How many countries have a border security team and a wall to prevent it?

    And, if you ever wondered why anyone would want a wall, well, there you go!

    Right now, it has been said that they are catching 10 suspected or known terrorists at the Southern Border every day!

    It was commonly stated in the 80's that for every one that was captured at the border 10 got through.

    I don't know the accepted number today.
    I say, Build the Wall!

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    Maybe I should show you another view of the situation.

    Ever since Mumbai, SWAT teams all over the world have been trying to figure out how to overcome terrorist cells numbering from 50 to 200 and larger.

    Such cells could take over entire small towns and villages.

    You could wake up to children being beheaded on TV (and if they were to kill 144,000 in that manner, it might fulfill another prophecy, huh?).

    How many countries have a border security team and a wall to prevent it?

    And, if you ever wondered why anyone would want a wall, well, there you go!

    Right now, it has been said that they are catching 10 suspected or known terrorists at the Southern Border every day!

    It was commonly stated in the 80's that for every one that was captured at the border 10 got through.

    I don't know the accepted number today.
    I say, Build the Wall!

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    Maybe I should show you another view of the situation.

    Ever since Mumbai, SWAT teams all over the world have been trying to figure out how to overcome terrorist cells numbering from 50 to 200 and larger.

    Such cells could take over entire small towns and villages.

    You could wake up to children being beheaded on TV (and if they were to kill 144,000 in that manner, it might fulfill another prophecy, huh?).

    How many countries have a border security team and a wall to prevent it?

    And, if you ever wondered why anyone would want a wall, well, there you go!

    Right now, it has been said that they are catching 10 suspected or known terrorists at the Southern Border every day!

    It was commonly stated in the 80's that for every one that was captured at the border 10 got through.

    I don't know the accepted number today.
    I say, Build the Wall!

  15. #75

    Re: Scripture fulfillment of 2 Thess 2 ??

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I say, Build the Wall!



    I say, Build the Wall!



    I say, Build the Wall!
    It is said that the US Legislature has a simple math algorithm for all correspondence that they receive: One letter=2000 voters opinions.

    Write your legislators.

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    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

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