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Thread: 2 horned Beast

  1. #46
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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Again ....blue in the face.

    The second beast is the mouth of the first beast. The second beast comes up from the earth ie ..man (little horn). At the time John is seeing this vison this second beast is in charge of the kingdom. The first beast's kings are not longer in power.

    Dan 7

    3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    First beast of rev 13

    4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
    5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
    6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

    Second beast of rev 13

    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    12 horns

    Yes there a total of 12 horns, 7 heads ummmm. Were else do we see 12 and 7? 12 tribes and 7 churches. This this kingdom is a counterfeit with the 12 representing the tribes of israel and the 7 heads representing the 7 churches. The horns divied 10 and two with the counterfeit lamb with two horns repsenting the supposed linage from the tribe of Judah.


    We need to understand that these kings are FUTURE and arise TOGETHER upon the earth. Then the little horn from the fourth beast arises and posses the kingdom as the other kings lose power.

  2. #47
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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I was simply trying to follow what you posted to its conclusion and considering what it would be seen as symbolically.
    We are actually in a discussion about Rev 13. When I refer to two horns supporting the rise of the antichrist, it may just be possible to see that as the two horned false prophet supporting the beast.

    But at least you argued against your own 3 horned strawman beast with enthusiastic gusto and exclamation marks

  3. #48
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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    You have wrongly identified both of Rev 13's beasts. I explained this before in a different thread so no need to explain what errors have been made again here.

    In short, Daniels 4th beast is the Rev 13:1 beast, and the little horn is Rev 13's second beast the false prophet. Much of what Daniel describes does not happen anywhere in the Rev narrative but we can match the main players.




    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Again ....blue in the face.

    The second beast is the mouth of the first beast. The second beast comes up from the earth ie ..man (little horn). At the time John is seeing this vison this second beast is in charge of the kingdom. The first beast's kings are not longer in power.

    Dan 7

    3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    First beast of rev 13

    4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
    5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
    6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

    Second beast of rev 13

    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    12 horns

    Yes there a total of 12 horns, 7 heads ummmm. Were else do we see 12 and 7? 12 tribes and 7 churches. This this kingdom is a counterfeit with the 12 representing the tribes of israel and the 7 heads representing the 7 churches. The horns divied 10 and two with the counterfeit lamb with two horns repsenting the supposed linage from the tribe of Judah.


    We need to understand that these kings are FUTURE and arise TOGETHER upon the earth. Then the little horn from the fourth beast arises and posses the kingdom as the other kings lose power.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #49
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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You have wrongly identified both of Rev 13's beasts. I explained this before in a different thread so no need to explain what errors have been made again here.

    In short, Daniels 4th beast is the Rev 13:1 beast, and the little horn is Rev 13's second beast the false prophet. Much of what Daniel describes does not happen anywhere in the Rev narrative but we can match the main players.
    I don't see how the "little horn" matches the "false prophet?" But I do see how the 4th Beast can lead, eventually, to the Kingdom of Antichrist.

    I see the 4th Beast as the ancient Roman Empire. Christ's Kingdom did not come at that time, though Christ himself did come for his earthly ministry. That is when he began to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom.

    Out of the 4th Beast emerges 10 horns, which are 10 kings. The Antichrist emerges as a "little horn" following.

    So when we say that the 4th Beast is synonymous with the Beast of Revelation, we have to recognize that there is this progression, from the ancient Roman Empire to the Kingdom of Antichrist. And I see no reason to believe the Antichrist is not the 1st Beast, and the False Prophet is the 2nd Beast?

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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't see how the "little horn" matches the "false prophet?"
    Why not? Both arise after the first beast and take control of everything.


    Out of the 4th Beast emerges 10 horns, which are 10 kings. The Antichrist emerges as a "little horn" following.
    Same thing with the false prophet...the beast of 7 mountains and ten kings arise, and the Antichrist emerges as a "false prophet" following.

    And I see no reason to believe the Antichrist is not the 1st Beast, and the False Prophet is the 2nd Beast?
    There is no individual who is part of the 1st beast. Why isn't that good enough reason?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #51
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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You have wrongly identified both of Rev 13's beasts. I explained this before in a different thread so no need to explain what errors have been made again here.

    In short, Daniels 4th beast is the Rev 13:1 beast, and the little horn is Rev 13's second beast the false prophet. Much of what Daniel describes does not happen anywhere in the Rev narrative but we can match the main players.
    We are saying the same thing.........dan 7 and rev 13 are the same however when John sees the vision the kingdom has progressed to the 4th beast and the little horn in power. The beasts (lion, bear, leopard) of the first beast in Rev 13 are no longer in power.

    This is the stage in which John is seeing the vision in Dan 7. The first beast of Rev 13 which contains the lion, bear, leopard have been subdued by the fourth beast....

    Dan 7:23 start of rev 13 / 42 months

    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
    25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

  7. #52
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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I see the 4th Beast as the ancient Roman Empire.
    Here in lies the problem.......

    And I see no reason to believe the Antichrist is not the 1st Beast, and the False Prophet is the 2nd Beast?
    Notice where each beast rises up........this is a clue to their identity. The first beast rises up from the sea. The sea is NOT a "sea of people" John is looking out over the sea from Patmos and sees a beast rise up from beneath the water the literal sea. What comes up from the sea? Spirits (hades). This is the spiritual kingdom of Satan coming upon the earth. Now look at the second beast and where does he come from ???? earth. What does this represent? Man. Just like spirits come from above, man (even Jesus) had to be born of the earth. See the parallel??

    Not to mention Satan is counterfeiting Christ's return, so does Christ come back from Rome with a side kick ??? neither will Satan.

  8. #53
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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't see how the "little horn" matches the "false prophet?" But I do see how the 4th Beast can lead, eventually, to the Kingdom of Antichrist.

    I see the 4th Beast as the ancient Roman Empire. Christ's Kingdom did not come at that time, though Christ himself did come for his earthly ministry. That is when he began to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom.
    This is the root of many people's errors.
    The 4th beast is NOT the ancient Roman Empire.
    The 4th beast is the beast that is cast into the Lake of Fire.
    Some would argue it is the little horn of the 4th beast - yet each horn is a king of the beast kingdom.
    So this one kingdom MUST be in existence at the time of Christ's return.

    Out of the 4th Beast emerges 10 horns, which are 10 kings. The Antichrist emerges as a "little horn" following.
    So when we say that the 4th Beast is synonymous with the Beast of Revelation, we have to recognize that there is this progression, from the ancient Roman Empire to the Kingdom of Antichrist. And I see no reason to believe the Antichrist is not the 1st Beast, and the False Prophet is the 2nd Beast?
    The 4th beast doesn't have 10 horns which emerge. They are there at the start. IOW the 4th beast starts as a 10 horned kingdom. If you like an association or alliance of kings.
    In Genesis 14 we have a 4 king alliance fight against a 5 king alliance.
    This 10 king alliance IS the 4th beast.
    It is the little horn which emerges from out of this 10 horn alliance, by uprooting 3 of them and taking their place - so the little horn is both 11th (coming after 10) and 8th (with 7 remaining).
    So there is a progression, but it is not as long a period of time, nor as great a progression.

    When we read about the 7 headed beast with 10 horns on its head., I understand that the 7th head has 10 horns. Thus the AC is the 8th of 7, yet is not a new head as such, but rather is a continuation of what was previous. This corresponds to the kingdom of Toes from Daniel 2. The 4th beast is that Kingdom of Clay and Iron, which starts with Feet, but which has 10 Toes, which is of the same nature, being the same kingdom, yet separated off in some way.
    The ancient Roman Empire however has NO Clay in it. It was the previous kingdom of Iron ONLY. The Kingdom of the Legs.
    Now due to Iron being seen in the Feet and Toes, so there is reason to say, some aspect of that ancient kingdom is in the Feet. What this should do though is lead to the question, what do the materials represent and what do the body parts represent? Are they representing the same thing?
    My answer is that they do not, for the Medes and Persians are Silver, yet they are Chest and Arms - so two different body parts, yet one material. Or the Greek Kingdoms, they are Belly and Thighs, but all bronze. The belly being Alexander, and the Thighs being the King of the North and the South.
    So for me the material speaks of what unites the kingdom, even as the body parts show they have different kings (kingdoms).
    That then leads to is the material simply speaking of ethnicity. If so then Iron would be speaking of Romans.
    Yet my answer is no, it is not ethnicity, as Medes and Persians are not ethnically the same. The Greek kingdoms, though ruled by Greeks, were united in a cultural fashion rather than ethnically.
    The Roman empire was also ruled by Romans, but united in a different ideal.
    I see therefore that the material speaks of a way or ideal, a cultural aspect rather than an ethnic aspect.
    This becomes clear when we read about the kingdom of Feet and Toes, as they will seek to be united, yet will be fractured.

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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Why not? Both arise after the first beast and take control of everything.




    Same thing with the false prophet...the beast of 7 mountains and ten kings arise, and the Antichrist emerges as a "false prophet" following.



    There is no individual who is part of the 1st beast. Why isn't that good enough reason?
    I suppose my hangup is Rev 19, where both are depicted as individuals, cast into the Lake of Fire. They are furthermore "captured," which is not something that happens to a nation.

    It is odd, however, because we don't have these *two individuals* anywhere in the OT Scriptures. So I really don't have much to go on.

  10. #55
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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    This is the root of many people's errors.
    The 4th beast is NOT the ancient Roman Empire.
    The 4th beast is the beast that is cast into the Lake of Fire.
    Some would argue it is the little horn of the 4th beast - yet each horn is a king of the beast kingdom.
    So this one kingdom MUST be in existence at the time of Christ's return.


    The 4th beast doesn't have 10 horns which emerge. They are there at the start. IOW the 4th beast starts as a 10 horned kingdom. If you like an association or alliance of kings.
    In Genesis 14 we have a 4 king alliance fight against a 5 king alliance.
    This 10 king alliance IS the 4th beast.
    It is the little horn which emerges from out of this 10 horn alliance, by uprooting 3 of them and taking their place - so the little horn is both 11th (coming after 10) and 8th (with 7 remaining).
    So there is a progression, but it is not as long a period of time, nor as great a progression.

    When we read about the 7 headed beast with 10 horns on its head., I understand that the 7th head has 10 horns. Thus the AC is the 8th of 7, yet is not a new head as such, but rather is a continuation of what was previous. This corresponds to the kingdom of Toes from Daniel 2. The 4th beast is that Kingdom of Clay and Iron, which starts with Feet, but which has 10 Toes, which is of the same nature, being the same kingdom, yet separated off in some way.
    The ancient Roman Empire however has NO Clay in it. It was the previous kingdom of Iron ONLY. The Kingdom of the Legs.
    Now due to Iron being seen in the Feet and Toes, so there is reason to say, some aspect of that ancient kingdom is in the Feet. What this should do though is lead to the question, what do the materials represent and what do the body parts represent? Are they representing the same thing?
    My answer is that they do not, for the Medes and Persians are Silver, yet they are Chest and Arms - so two different body parts, yet one material. Or the Greek Kingdoms, they are Belly and Thighs, but all bronze. The belly being Alexander, and the Thighs being the King of the North and the South.
    So for me the material speaks of what unites the kingdom, even as the body parts show they have different kings (kingdoms).
    That then leads to is the material simply speaking of ethnicity. If so then Iron would be speaking of Romans.
    Yet my answer is no, it is not ethnicity, as Medes and Persians are not ethnically the same. The Greek kingdoms, though ruled by Greeks, were united in a cultural fashion rather than ethnically.
    The Roman empire was also ruled by Romans, but united in a different ideal.
    I see therefore that the material speaks of a way or ideal, a cultural aspect rather than an ethnic aspect.
    This becomes clear when we read about the kingdom of Feet and Toes, as they will seek to be united, yet will be fractured.
    It would solve a lot of problems if the 4th Kingdom was strictly the Kingdom of Antichrist. But I don't really see that, in terms of the sequence of kingdoms coming after Babylon. And Revelation was written during the time of the Roman Empire. I believe many of the Church Fathers and Church Scholars have interpreted it this way, as well. However, there is much in this that I don't have much of a handle on. So any speculation about it could help.

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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I suppose my hangup is Rev 19, where both are depicted as individuals, cast into the Lake of Fire. They are furthermore "captured," which is not something that happens to a nation.

    It is odd, however, because we don't have these *two individuals* anywhere in the OT Scriptures. So I really don't have much to go on.
    That's because you are misinterpreting one of them as being an individual. I know it's strange, but kingdoms etc have been symbolized as individuals take the bride of Christ or Babylon the whore...not individuals but the symbology is. The beast which is 7 mountains and 10 kingdoms isn't a person by pure definition/explanation but the symbology uses "him" (also normal Greek grammar) and says he is cast alive in the LOF...but to think individual for that beast is going to cause massive issues in end times understandings.

    It's really easy:

    Daniel, 4th beast not a person, little horn comes after and IS a person and this is also a person known as the antichrist.
    Rev, 1st beast not a person, matches the Daniel 4th beast almost exactly, and again an individual comes after and IS a person and this is also a person known as the antichrist.


    Some of the smaller details and events differ but the main characters are the same.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #57
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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It's really easy:

    Daniel, 4th beast not a person,
    I guess not that easy.........the 4th beast is a person. No one is going to get your point on rev 13 if you maintain this view.

    The Lion, bear, Leopard, and 4th beast are in fact four people. They are four kings which at one point in the future will be upon the earth. The little horn is a person too in which we agree on Rev 13. Like I said earlier, the Lion, bear, leopard, are subdued by this little horn thus what we are seeing in rev 13 is when this 4th beast (person) + Satan = the little horn.

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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It would solve a lot of problems if the 4th Kingdom was strictly the Kingdom of Antichrist.
    Babylon
    MP
    Greece
    4th kingdom

    4th Kingdom =

    7 heads = Lion (1) bear (1), Leopard (4), beast (1)

    Lion
    Bear
    leopard
    Beast = 10 horns + Little horn (8th head/lamb) Lion to lamb get it. Lion would be the wounded head which then comes back (2nd coming so to speak as the lamb of God counterfeit0 Sound familiar?

    5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
    6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    As God's kingdom has 7 and 12 so does the counterfeit. Thus the seven heads represent the 7 churches with 7 kings and the 12 horns represent Israel. The little horn claiming to be the lamb of God from the tribe of Judah showing to have the church and Israel in his control!!!

    Rome is in extension of Greece even your own history books claim this.

    Guys I am giving you all I got...... will someone please listen

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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I guess not that easy.........the 4th beast is a person.
    Go ahead and try to prove it using scripture.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: 2 horned Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That's because you are misinterpreting one of them as being an individual. I know it's strange, but kingdoms etc have been symbolized as individuals take the bride of Christ or Babylon the whore...not individuals but the symbology is. The beast which is 7 mountains and 10 kingdoms isn't a person by pure definition/explanation but the symbology uses "him" (also normal Greek grammar) and says he is cast alive in the LOF...but to think individual for that beast is going to cause massive issues in end times understandings.

    It's really easy:

    Daniel, 4th beast not a person, little horn comes after and IS a person and this is also a person known as the antichrist.
    Rev, 1st beast not a person, matches the Daniel 4th beast almost exactly, and again an individual comes after and IS a person and this is also a person known as the antichrist.

    Some of the smaller details and events differ but the main characters are the same.
    While it's true that the 4th Beast of Dan 7 appears very much like the 1st Beast of Rev 13, I still don't see an exact match. The 1st Beast of Rev 13 appears with 7 heads, indicating the end of a series of 7 kingdoms. So this Beast in Rev 13 extends beyond the Roman Empire, which is the 6th after Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. Antichrist appears to belong to these 7 kingdoms as an "8th," which seems to mean that he stands apart from the kingdoms as an individual ruler.

    According to Rev 17, the 6th kingdom existed in John's day, and had to have been Rome. So, until the 7th kingdom arrived, the Beast of Rev 13 could not yet exist, and certainly could not have existed as long as Rome, the 6th kingdom, still existed. That is why the Beast "is not."

    I think the wounding of one of the heads of the Beast probably refers to the Roman Empire, where Christ judged Satan, and with him his Roman head. This later caused Rome to fall, just as it was indicated in Dan 9.27. It was the Roman People, and the Roman Prince, who set up an "abomination," the Roman Army, in the city of Jerusalem, to destroy the temple. But Rome came to its end in 476 AD.

    This "wound," however, is healed by the time the 7th kingdom emerges, which I believe is the kingdom of Antichrist. And as I said, Antichrist is the "8th king." The 7 prior kings represented kingdoms. But Antichrist is an 8th because he supplants the 7th kingdom to make it his own. At least this is my theory thus far. I don't really know at all!

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