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Thread: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

  1. #121

    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In verse 11 Paul says that THIS INTIMATE AND CO-JOINED WALK WITH CHRIST IS WHAT QUALIFIES a man for the "out-resurrection". Brother Anderson is correct. Resurrection is guaranteed for all men. But this resurrection in Philippians 2, only mentioned this ONCE in the whole Bible, is called the "out", or "special" resurrection. It is "EX-anastasis" in the Greek. Literally "the resurrection out of the resurrection". And the wording and grammar is unequivocal. This "EX-anastasis" MUST BE ATTAINED. That is, effort and loss for it are understood. And the ATTAINING TO IT IS THIS INTIMACY WITH CHRIST OF THE PREVIOUS VERSES.
    The "out-resurrection" is what I'm saying is what happens in the here and now (as opposed to at the time of our Rapture).

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In my OP I dealt with the later part of this context - the "Up-ward call", or the "Calling on high". I will not repeat it, but just point out that the "Upward call" is called, by the Holy Spirit, "A PRIZE". Prizes are not guaranteed! They are EARNED! Thus, IN BOTH CASES, there is revealed in these verses that there is a "special resurrection" and a "PRIZE of a Rapture." It is NOT that it is the ONLY Resurrection and Rapture. It is that a certain PART of the resurrection, and a certain PART of the Rapture are regarded as PRIZES to be EARNED by AN INTIMATE KNOWLEDGE OF, AND INTIMATE WALK WITH JESUS IN OUR LIFETIMES.
    I'm saying that the "prize" is not our Rapture (nor is the "upward call/high calling"), but that Paul is describing something that occurs in the here and now, BEFORE the Church's [corporate (ONE BODY)] Rapture (the ONLY Rapture there is is this ONE pertaining to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all other time periods [not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints] and in which EVERY MEMBER [of that ONE BODY] will participate [occurring pre-trib]), and that what Paul's topic he's covering in Philippians 3 pertains to the here and now ("God's high calling in Christ Jesus, i.e. what God has called us (made us) to be in Christ." [in the here and now])

  2. #122
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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    [Pardon my brevity, my time is limited at present] As to the OP reference to Philippians 3, I will quote from Sir Rob't Anderson's "Forgotten Truths" Appendix 4:

    [quoting]

    "IF the commonly received exegesis of Philippians 3:8-14 be correct, we are faced by the astounding fact that the author of the Epistle to the Romans and of the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians -- the Apostle who was in a peculiar sense entrusted with the supreme revelation of grace -- announced when nearing the close of his ministry that the resurrection was not, as he had been used to teach, a blessing which Divine grace assured to all believers in Christ, but a prize to be won by the sustained efforts of a life of wholly exceptional saintship.

    [...]

    " Ephesians and Colossians, be it remembered, were written at the same period of his ministry as Philippians; and in the light of these Scriptures we can read this chapter aright. To "win Christ" (ver. 8), or to apprehend, or lay hold of, that for which he had been laid hold of, or apprehended (ver. 12); or in other words, to realize practically in his life on earth what was true of him doctrinally as to his standing before God in heaven -- this is what he was reaching toward, and what, he says, he had not "already attained."

    " The "high calling" of ver. 14 is interpreted by some to mean Christ's calling up His own to meet Him in the air (a blessing assured to all "who are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord"); but this is not in keeping with the plain words -- God's high calling in Christ Jesus, i.e. what God has called us (made us) to be in Christ. [that is, in the here and now--bracket mine]

    " If this passage refers to the literal resurrection, then the words "not as though I had already attained must mean that, while here on earth, and before the Lord's Coming, the Apostle hoped either to undergo the change of ver. 21, or else to win some sort of saintship diploma, or certificate, to ensure his being raised at the Coming. These alternatives are inexorable; and they only need to be stated to ensure their rejection.


    " One word more. If the Apostle Paul, after such a life of saintship and service, was in doubt as to his part in the resurrection, no one of us, unless he be the proudest of Pharisees or the blindest of fools, will dream of attaining it. In fact we shall dismiss the subject from our minds."

    [more at link] http://articles.ochristian.com/article12455.shtml

    [bold / underline mine]

    ____________


    [the reader may recall that my position is "pretrib" ]



    Note the beginning and ending bracketing words (of the passage) referring to "MIND" (in chpt 2:2,3,5 and 3:15,16,18-19, basically)
    Phil 3.7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

    12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


    Whatever one may think of what Paul said here, he is, in my opinion, talking about the effort Christians should make to live the life of Christ in the here and now. The "power of the resurrection" is not speaking of the future resurrection itself, nor of any "special resurrection." Rather, the "power of the resurrection" is the *power* Christ instilled in us to overcome our carnal lives with the spiritual life given us by grace at Christ's death and resurrection.

    We are to make every effort to live the spiritual life Christ has given us. This is not an elite experience for just a few Christians, but rather, the opportunity Christ has given *all Christians* to experience power to live the spiritual life, overcoming the carnal life. We do not have to live lives independent of Christ, void of the fruits of the Spirit. We can regularly live in the life of Christ, exercising all of the virtues necessary to show Christ in our lives.

    The fact not all attain to this "prize" is evident in the fact some Christians backslide to live in sin, or regularly fail to produce Christian virtue in their lives. It is a choice we make every day to let the love of Christ win over our tendency towards selfishness and independence from God. The autonomous life, separated from Christ, cannot produce Christian virtue. We must choose to remain connected to the "vine"in order to produce the "fruit of the vine."

    Though we are all true Christians, after we are born again, living the life of Christ requires a regular choice to overcome the flesh. We still have the "flesh" with us, indicating we must *overcome it.* Failure to overcome the flesh simply means we fail to produce Christ's love, and give God a "black eye." It doesn't mean we're spiritually lost whenever we fail to act in a "loving" way!

    The "power of the resurrection" is the power Christ had to transform lives, exhibited when he personally rose from the dead. He showed that his divine life is all-powerful, and can transform our carnal beings into spiritual beings, simply by our choice to live in his free gift of grace, the spiritual life.

    All Christians, whether they are profoundly obedient, or only partially obedient, will attain to the resurrection from the dead. That is a free gift offered to *all Christians* who embrace the spiritual life Christ died to give us.

    We are not struggling to attain to our future resurrection. Rather, we are struggling to live the spiritual life that will, for all Christians, result in a future resurrection. Paul found it mysterious that we should attain to the resurrection of the dead in the future. But his goal was to live the spiritual life now, which will, in fact, somehow attain to that prize.

  3. #123
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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    The "out-resurrection" is what I'm saying is what happens in the here and now (as opposed to at the time of our Rapture).



    I'm saying that the "prize" is not our Rapture (nor is the "upward call/high calling"), but that Paul is describing something that occurs in the here and now, BEFORE the Church's [corporate (ONE BODY)] Rapture (the ONLY Rapture there is is this ONE pertaining to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all other time periods [not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints] and in which EVERY MEMBER [of that ONE BODY] will participate [occurring pre-trib]), and that what Paul's topic he's covering in Philippians 3 pertains to the here and now ("God's high calling in Christ Jesus, i.e. what God has called us (made us) to be in Christ." [in the here and now])
    The grammar forbids your thesis. How could Paul ...
    • desire that he, "... might attain unto the resurrection of the dead", if it had already taken place?
    • admit that, "Not as though I had already attained", if it was past?
    • admit that, "Not as though I either were already perfect", if it was past?
    • desire, "... that I may apprehend ... ", if it was already achieved?
    • admit that, "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended ... ", when he had already (past tense) apprehended?
    • admit that he still is, "... reaching forth unto those things which are before, ... ", if it was achieved already?
    • admit that he, "... presses toward the mark for the prize ... ", if it was already achieved in the "here and now?

    The grammar must decide if these things were past or future.

  4. #124
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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Phil 3.7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

    12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


    Whatever one may think of what Paul said here, he is, in my opinion, talking about the effort Christians should make to live the life of Christ in the here and now. The "power of the resurrection" is not speaking of the future resurrection itself, nor of any "special resurrection." Rather, the "power of the resurrection" is the *power* Christ instilled in us to overcome our carnal lives with the spiritual life given us by grace at Christ's death and resurrection.
    My esteemed brother, consider THREE things;
    1. Resurrection ALWAYS applies to the raising of the dead BODY, never the moral walk of a man
    2. It is NOT "The 'power of the resurrection'". It is "The power of HIS resurrection". We should not change the words of the Holy Spirit and then discuss our changes. You must expound "HIS resurrection" and its POWER.
    3. It IS a "special" resurrection because of (1) the Greek, and (2) it must be ATTAINED TO. Since resurrection is the portion of ALL men, from Cain to the Beast, normal resurrection must not be ATTAINED TO. It is a given (1st Cor.15:22-23). What must be ATTAINED TO is the "EX-anastasis".

    Your volume of postings shows you to be very interested in what the Bible says. This is very commendable. But your next tactic must be to REALLY discuss what the Bible REALLY says.

    May the Lord grant you extraordinary insight for your zeal.

  5. #125

    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The grammar forbids your thesis. How could Paul ...
    • desire that he, "... might attain unto the resurrection of the dead", if it had already taken place?
    • admit that, "Not as though I had already attained", if it was past?
    • admit that, "Not as though I either were already perfect", if it was past?
    • desire, "... that I may apprehend ... ", if it was already achieved?
    • admit that, "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended ... ", when he had already (past tense) apprehended?
    • admit that he still is, "... reaching forth unto those things which are before, ... ", if it was achieved already?
    • admit that he, "... presses toward the mark for the prize ... ", if it was already achieved in the "here and now?

    The grammar must decide if these things were past or future.
    It sounds as if you have misunderstood me.

    I'm not saying it occurred in Paul's "past" [as well as my saying this not referring to his and our "future" Rapture]... but that he is speaking to that which should take place within his lifetime, during his living of this mortal life (before the Rapture).

    Aren't there times when G450 (by itself) speaks to either a literal physical resurrection, in some cases (such as in Acts 2:24,31-32) or a raising to a position of prominence [during His/Jesus' lifetime / earthly ministry, for example], in other cases (such as in Acts 3:22,26)? Now, here in Phil3:11 I'm not saying it is "to a position of prominence," per se, but definitely applicable in the same way, in that, it refers to that which takes place in the here and now (as opposed to in the future at the time of our [corporate] Rapture). That is, during the lifetime of Paul (but which is not referring to the Rapture [though there indeed be a pre-trib rapture of "the Church which is His body"]).


    Consider also how G1825 is used in this verse Rom9:17, about Pharaoh ( http://biblehub.com/text/romans/9-17.htm ), and in only one other verse (about "us"--the Church which is His body"): "exēgeira / exegerei" -- "(from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 1453 /egeírō, "raise"), where "G1453 - raise" itself is sometimes used to speak of [bodily/physical] "resurrection" (but not always ).

  6. #126
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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    My esteemed brother, consider THREE things;
    1. Resurrection ALWAYS applies to the raising of the dead BODY, never the moral walk of a man
    2. It is NOT "The 'power of the resurrection'". It is "The power of HIS resurrection". We should not change the words of the Holy Spirit and then discuss our changes. You must expound "HIS resurrection" and its POWER.
    3. It IS a "special" resurrection because of (1) the Greek, and (2) it must be ATTAINED TO. Since resurrection is the portion of ALL men, from Cain to the Beast, normal resurrection must not be ATTAINED TO. It is a given (1st Cor.15:22-23). What must be ATTAINED TO is the "EX-anastasis".

    Your volume of postings shows you to be very interested in what the Bible says. This is very commendable. But your next tactic must be to REALLY discuss what the Bible REALLY says.

    May the Lord grant you extraordinary insight for your zeal.
    In fact I am talking about *his resurrection,* ie the resurrection of Christ. The power that he displayed, when he rose from the dead, is the very power that enables us to live a virtuous life, a spiritual life. What we are striving to do, therefore, is to live a spiritual life--not attain to the resurrection. Since it is the power of Christ's resurrection that enables us to live by grace, that same power will enable us to participate in the resurrection from the dead.

    I'm really not sure what our disconnect is? This is not a special resurrection we're trying to attain to. This is a virtuous life we're trying to attain to, enabled by the power of Christ's resurrection. The prize of this virtuous life is the reward that comes with the resurrection that we will all participate in.

    Perhaps I should try to restate it. Paul was saying that he wanted to know the virtuous life that came to him through the power of Christ's resurrection. What that means is that when Christ rose from the dead, he did so to enable those who are dead in trespasses to receive, by grace, the virtuous life that he came to give us.

    Paul was saying that he strove to fully appreciate this spiritual life of Christ, but knew that he had not yet achieved it. It would come in the future resurrection of the saints, when we receive glorious new bodies.

    But for the meantime, Paul was encouraging us all to pursue this spiritual life, which was enabled for us when Christ rose from the dead. And when we do we shall somehow attain to a future resurrection, just as Christ himself rose from the dead. The purpose of our new life is so that we may both live virtuous lives and also attain to the future resurrection.

    When Paul talks about obtaining a reward, he is not saying that the resurrection is strictly a reward for living the Christian life. It certainly is that. However, Paul was more than that saying that the resurrection offers prizes for those who are successful in living out their virtuous lives, given them when they received Christ.

    Paul was pursuing a prize for successfully living the virtuous Christian life. And he wanted us to do the same. All Christians have some participation in the spiritual life of Christ. But Paul wanted us to be victorious in everything, and not to fall back into the flesh.

    And so, there is a prize for being faithful, beyond simply attaining to the resurrection of the dead, which all Christians will attain to.

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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    It sounds as if you have misunderstood me.

    I'm not saying it occurred in Paul's "past" [as well as my saying this not referring to his and our "future" Rapture]... but that he is speaking to that which should take place within his lifetime, during his living of this mortal life (before the Rapture).

    Aren't there times when G450 (by itself) speaks to either a literal physical resurrection, in some cases (such as in Acts 2:24,31-32) or a raising to a position of prominence [during His/Jesus' lifetime / earthly ministry, for example], in other cases (such as in Acts 3:22,26)? Now, here in Phil3:11 I'm not saying it is "to a position of prominence," per se, but definitely applicable in the same way, in that, it refers to that which takes place in the here and now (as opposed to in the future at the time of our [corporate] Rapture). That is, during the lifetime of Paul (but which is not referring to the Rapture [though there indeed be a pre-trib rapture of "the Church which is His body"]).


    Consider also how G1825 is used in this verse Rom9:17, about Pharaoh ( http://biblehub.com/text/romans/9-17.htm ), and in only one other verse (about "us"--the Church which is His body"): "exēgeira / exegerei" -- "(from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 1453 /egeírō, "raise"), where "G1453 - raise" itself is sometimes used to speak of [bodily/physical] "resurrection" (but not always ).
    The word we discuss only appears ONCE in the Bible. As I reported, it is a compound word made of "EX" (out of), and "ANASTASIS" ("to rise up", or "to cause to stand"). This ONCE occurrence is inside a context. The grammar points to a future event that Paul STRIVES for. No man has to strive for the resurrection. It is guaranteed (1st Cor.15:22-23). So this "OUT-RESURRECTION", or literally "resurrection OUT OF the resurrection" must be WON. A man must DO THINGS to account him worthy TO ATTAIN to it.

    And Paul is not remiss in his writing for 1st Thessalonians 4 he reports these TWO EVENTS as coupled together. The RISING of the dead from Hades to the surface of the earth, AND THEN those who are alive and do not need RISING, are "TOGETHER" Raptured (v.17). So also here in Philippians 3. The COUPLED event of resurrection and the "upward call" are presented. In the case of the Church of Thessaloniki, there is no talk of ATTAINING and a PRIZE. Why? Chapters 1 and 3 show that this Church was EXEMPLARY in their walk. Paul had no need to mention the PART that is a prize. He can freely explain the coupled event of resurrection and attached Rapture. But in Philippians 1:27 to 2:4 we see that the Philippian saints had troubles. Disunity, selfishness and fear were the order of the day. So when Paul presents the resurrection and rapture to the Philippians, he is careful to show that WITHIN this GUARANTEED EVENT, is an OUT resurrection and Rapture WITH A PRIZE attached to it.

    This is again shown in Revelation 20:4-6. While resurrection is guaranteed to ALL men, there is a "first resurrection" to which a man is "BLESSED" if he attains to it. The Greek word here is "protos", and can mean either "First in time", or it can mean "First in importance". Since there had been multiple resurrections long before these "blessed" are raised, the meaning of "Protos" in Revelation 20:4-6 MUST MEAN "First in importance". And truly we see that the qualification for belonging to the resurrection which is "First" in importance is martyrdom. That is, an extraordinary PRICE was paid for the PRIZE. And the PRIZE of this resurrection and Rapture is "A CROWN" to rule the nations alongside Jesus Christ.

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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    [Pardon my brevity, my time is limited at present] As to the OP reference to Philippians 3, I will quote from Sir Rob't Anderson's "Forgotten Truths" Appendix 4:

    [quoting]

    "IF the commonly received exegesis of Philippians 3:8-14 be correct, we are faced by the astounding fact that the author of the Epistle to the Romans and of the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians -- the Apostle who was in a peculiar sense entrusted with the supreme revelation of grace -- announced when nearing the close of his ministry that the resurrection was not, as he had been used to teach, a blessing which Divine grace assured to all believers in Christ, but a prize to be won by the sustained efforts of a life of wholly exceptional saintship.

    [...]

    " Ephesians and Colossians, be it remembered, were written at the same period of his ministry as Philippians; and in the light of these Scriptures we can read this chapter aright. To "win Christ" (ver. 8), or to apprehend, or lay hold of, that for which he had been laid hold of, or apprehended (ver. 12); or in other words, to realize practically in his life on earth what was true of him doctrinally as to his standing before God in heaven -- this is what he was reaching toward, and what, he says, he had not "already attained."
    I concur with this...

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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You are good with your emphatic comments, but biblically you never explained how Daniel 9:26 cannot refer to two groups involved with the downfall of the temple. Sure we will have to agree to disagree , hope you are having a good Easter weekend
    The difference in our approach and understanding of Dan 9:26 is that my interpretation is specifically aligned with Matt 24:2. Whereas yours goes beyond scripture to rely on the historical account of the temple's destruction (the role of the zealots) which although true, was not included in Christ' remark in the Olivet Discourse.

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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The difference in our approach and understanding of Dan 9:26 is that my interpretation is specifically aligned with Matt 24:2. Whereas yours goes beyond scripture to rely on the historical account of the temple's destruction (the role of the zealots) which although true, was not included in Christ' remark in the Olivet Discourse.
    I see both Jews and Romans in v26, and also align the Romans of v26 with Matthew 24, so your point does not apply to me.

    Jesus at no stage claimed his description of 70ad is the full description of that war. No one prophecy contains all the details of another prophecy.

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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I see both Jews and Romans in v26, and also align the Romans of v26 with Matthew 24, so your point does not apply to me.

    Jesus at no stage claimed his description of 70ad is the full description of that war. No one prophecy contains all the details of another prophecy.
    Durban, shall we leave this for now? I wish you well with your thoughts and pray that you'll reverse such beliefs in due course.

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    Re: The PRIZE of the upward call - Philippians 3:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Durban, shall we leave this for now? I wish you well with your thoughts and pray that you'll reverse such beliefs in due course.
    Sure no problem.

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