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Thread: The whole of scripture

  1. #61
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    Re: The whole of scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Does it really imply that?
    It states IF you receive the Mark THEN you will face a consequence for having taken that Mark.
    By the way, to clarify for you what Rev 14:9 - 11 is about, it is NOT about Hell and the Last Judgement.
    It is about judgement ON earth.

    We KNOW this for certain because we are told they are tormented "...in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb." Now notice it says IN THE PRESENCE...
    However the Last Judgement leads to everlasting punishment AWAY from His presence - IOW He is not present then.
    Isaiah 66:15 *For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
    16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

    Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

    Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    The latter doesn't mention fire, and brimstone, yet it mentions hail and calls it a great hail. Ezekiel 38:22 calls it great hailstones. Between these 3 passages then, assuming they are all referring to the same events, looks like some tormenting going on. The question is though, the coming in Isaiah 66:15, is that a physical coming? If yes, it then explains how these things happen in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

    Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    Obviously verse 9, like you already pointed out, can't be meaning Revelation 14:10. One would have to be blind to not see that the following contradict each other if they are supposed to be referring to the same events....and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb... Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord

  2. #62
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    Re: The whole of scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That isn't saying all sins can be forgiven except blasphemy of the HS it means many kinds of sins can be forgiven but blasphemy of the HS won't be forgiven.

    The KJV is a better wording:

    Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

    Obviously changing the words of Revelation isn't forgivable because those that do it lose their part in the book of life and that means they go to the LOF.

    There is another unforgivable sin as well:


    Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    It is impossible to renew these people to repentance and no repentance means no being forgiven. These are lost souls.
    Well said. Couldn't agree more

  3. #63
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    Re: The whole of scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Of course its if you receive the mark that has been my point all along. It is about hell not the earth because it states the smoke will rise for ever only eternity is forever.
    No, your point is that taking the Mark of the beast is something that CANNOT be forgiven and therefore CANNOT eb a physical Mark.
    I have highlighted the numerous errors in this strawman.

    1) The statements given in scripture indicate that God wants people to repent, but they refuse to. So it is NOT God who is not forgiving sin, bnut the people who have taken the Mark refusing to avail themselves of His forgiveness.

    2) All sins have a physical action, based upon an attitude of the heart. If I rape or murder someone, that person CANNOT be unraped or unmurdered. There is a consequence to my sin and taking the Mark also has a consequence.

    3) It is NOT about Hell, as I highlighted there is a difference between the eternal punishment and Rev 14. In Rev 14 it speaks of the SMOKE rising forever. This same language usage is used about Sodom, from which we KNOW that the smoke is NOT rising. It is used about the prayers of the saints in a similar way, as they rise to heaven. This is NOT literal, but rather descriptive of the smoke going up to God. It s stated WITHIN the period of time of the 7 vials. So it is what God is doing, in pouring out His wrath on people on the earth.
    divaD highlighted some other passages which show the same point.

  4. #64
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    Re: The whole of scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No, your point is that taking the Mark of the beast is something that CANNOT be forgiven and therefore CANNOT eb a physical Mark.
    I have highlighted the numerous errors in this strawman.

    1) The statements given in scripture indicate that God wants people to repent, but they refuse to. So it is NOT God who is not forgiving sin, bnut the people who have taken the Mark refusing to avail themselves of His forgiveness.

    2) All sins have a physical action, based upon an attitude of the heart. If I rape or murder someone, that person CANNOT be unraped or unmurdered. There is a consequence to my sin and taking the Mark also has a consequence.

    3) It is NOT about Hell, as I highlighted there is a difference between the eternal punishment and Rev 14. In Rev 14 it speaks of the SMOKE rising forever. This same language usage is used about Sodom, from which we KNOW that the smoke is NOT rising. It is used about the prayers of the saints in a similar way, as they rise to heaven. This is NOT literal, but rather descriptive of the smoke going up to God. It s stated WITHIN the period of time of the 7 vials. So it is what God is doing, in pouring out His wrath on people on the earth.
    divaD highlighted some other passages which show the same point.
    Actually my point is IF you take the mark you can't repent so its not a literal mark so what both of us are saying.

    Of course there are consequences for taking the mark but according to scripture He would forgive them. If you raped and murdered someone you would receive consequences on earth but God would still forgive you if you truly asked.

    Our difference is how we see the timing of Revelation. I see most of it in the past and Babylon the great as Jerusalem in 70AD and the second angle states that Babylon the great has fallen.

  5. #65
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    Re: The whole of scripture

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Actually my point is IF you take the mark you can't repent so its not a literal mark so what both of us are saying.
    So you create a strawman by saying IF you take the Mark you can't be forgiven.
    My point has been that IF you take the Mark you WILL face the consequences. Further that you will NOT repent. Nowhere is it said they can't repent.
    I see the Mark as a physical (or as you keep calling it - literal) Mark.
    Taking the Mark is an action, just like any other sin. An action which those who take it do not repent of taking.

    Of course there are consequences for taking the mark but according to scripture He would forgive them. If you raped and murdered someone you would receive consequences on earth but God would still forgive you if you truly asked.
    And? As stated, nowhere says you can't repent. The point is that scripture says they REFUSE to repent. So the consequence is yours BOTH for taking the Mark AND for refusing to repent.

    Our difference is how we see the timing of Revelation. I see most of it in the past and Babylon the great as Jerusalem in 70AD and the second angle states that Babylon the great has fallen.
    Not at all. Even if this were the past, taking the Mark would still have a consequence. I see no time in history though where the 7 vials were poured out or Jesus returned, so I disagree with your timing. Of course I have also pointed out the impossibility of the timing for Revelation to be written BEFORE 65 AD, which means that the beast would not be reigning for 42 months IF it was referring to Nero.

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