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Thread: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

  1. #46
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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You would probably want to use the word "eventual" rather than imminent:

    imminent

    adjective
    1.
    likely to occur at any moment; impending
    Please see the *biblical* definition of how I'm using the word. *Context* determines how I'm using the word "imminent."

    Eze 12.21 The word of the Lord came to me: 22 “Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: ‘The days go by and every vision comes to nothing’? 23 Say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel.’ Say to them, ‘The days are near when every vision will be fulfilled. 24 For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel. 25 But I the Lord will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious people, I will fulfill whatever I say, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

    This judgment, proclaimed by Ezekiel, can be viewed as "imminent," using the English definition of the word. It did *not* have to mean the judgment against Jerusalem would fall *tomorrow.* In fact it didn't. Most things take time. Most things require a process.

    Judgment took place in the *lifetime* of those who heard Ezekiel's prophecy of Jerusalem's judgment. It would, in this sense, be an *imminent judgment,* and not a judgment endlessly delayed. God would not procrastinate, and leave things off until Judgment Day.

    In my view, we can get way too technical over definitions. That is, in my view, a ruse. It's very simple to understand what Ezekiel is saying here. Judgment was not going to be delayed. But he was not saying judgment would literally take place *the next day!* You know what I mean? Not saying you have to agree.

  2. #47
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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As Christians we tend to emphasize salvation in Jesus' earthly ministry. We think he came the 1st time to bring salvation, and comes the 2nd time to bring judgment. Although there is truth in this, I think it causes us to somewhat distort the fact Jesus also came to bring judgment the 1st time, as well. Jesus came to die for sinners, not just to save them, but also to judge those who continued in their sin. What do you think?

    Jesus declared judgment against Jerusalem in his generation (70 AD). Can you think of any reason God would put off all judgment against sin until Jesus' 2nd Coming? Wouldn't that make God inconsistent with how He operated with Israel under the Law?
    John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

  3. #48
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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The problem with this is, you could say the same thing about God's use of Babylon as his "vessel of judgment" against Israel. Was God, in His use of pagan Babylon, guilty of collaboration with an evil country like Babylon when he used them? Certainly not!
    Actually it isn't a problem. You have highlighted a key distinction, in that God uses someone. My point wasn't simply using, but actually being the source.
    Further God also had the prophets prophesy against Babylon for example.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    True, I get that all the time from those who think they can sin with impunity, that a God of grace will never judge them, that they have all the time in the world to put their lives in order. Trouble is, that's not the biblical record.

    I'm not questioning the verse you're giving me. That's obviously true. But the idea that this means God does not judge in the current age is obviously not contained in this verse.

    The verse simply speaks of our eternal destiny. God doesn't want to judge the world. So He has made provision for all men so that they can avoid judgment.

    But will God judge, and does God judge in the current world? Of course!

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually it isn't a problem. You have highlighted a key distinction, in that God uses someone. My point wasn't simply using, but actually being the source.
    Further God also had the prophets prophesy against Babylon for example.
    That's called "a distinction without a difference."

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    True, I get that all the time from those who think they can sin with impunity, that a God of grace will never judge them, that they have all the time in the world to put their lives in order. Trouble is, that's not the biblical record.

    I'm not questioning the verse you're giving me. That's obviously true. But the idea that this means God does not judge in the current age is obviously not contained in this verse.

    The verse simply speaks of our eternal destiny. God doesn't want to judge the world. So He has made provision for all men so that they can avoid judgment.

    But will God judge, and does God judge in the current world? Of course!
    God will and does judge, but your thread is about the purpose of Jesus when He came the 1st time, and was it for judgement.
    The answer is given in this purpose, which does NOT negate any form of judgement or that Jesus Himself won't judge.
    IOW you are creating a strawman argument.

  7. #52
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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    God will and does judge, but your thread is about the purpose of Jesus when He came the 1st time, and was it for judgement.
    The answer is given in this purpose, which does NOT negate any form of judgement or that Jesus Himself won't judge.
    IOW you are creating a strawman argument.
    No, I'm just logically dealing with the argument presented, already knowing that there was an element of judging in Jesus' 1st Coming. I already know that Jesus came to bring judgment upon most of Israel. He already knew only a few would be chosen among the many in Israel. And he knew full national salvation for Israel would await a very long time--in other words, he came to bring judgment against Israel, as a nation, in the NT period!

    Jesus fulfilled, I believe, all of the previous biblical prophets. Some came with a word of restoration, and some--probably most--came with a word of judgment. Jesus also came with both. He promised a future restoration for Israel. But more immediately he came to provide for that restoration, knowing that national Israel would 1st be judged before entering into their national restoration.

    The verse cited has to do with God's motive in sending Jesus. It was to provide salvation for those who were willing. The rest, in Israel, would be judged.

    As far as the rest of the world, they would be judged on the basis of their human conscience, just as took place in pagan nations, or in "cousin" nations to Israel, who did not have the Law. God judged nations all through the books of the Prophets. You think God has changed? No!

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, I'm just logically dealing with the argument presented, already knowing that there was an element of judging in Jesus' 1st Coming. I already know that Jesus came to bring judgment upon most of Israel. He already knew only a few would be chosen among the many in Israel. And he knew full national salvation for Israel would await a very long time--in other words, he came to bring judgment against Israel, as a nation, in the NT period!

    Jesus fulfilled, I believe, all of the previous biblical prophets. Some came with a word of restoration, and some--probably most--came with a word of judgment. Jesus also came with both. He promised a future restoration for Israel. But more immediately he came to provide for that restoration, knowing that national Israel would 1st be judged before entering into their national restoration.

    The verse cited has to do with God's motive in sending Jesus. It was to provide salvation for those who were willing. The rest, in Israel, would be judged.

    As far as the rest of the world, they would be judged on the basis of their human conscience, just as took place in pagan nations, or in "cousin" nations to Israel, who did not have the Law. God judged nations all through the books of the Prophets. You think God has changed? No!
    So what you are stating is that you know the answer to your question - and that answer is that Jesus came to judge. Except this is where many disagree with your claim. he didn't come to judge, but to bring salvation.

    There are things the prophets spoke of which Jesus has yet to fulfill. Isaiah 65 & 66 or Ezekiel 47 are clear examples. Most of the judgement they spoke of was already fulfilled before Jesus came or will be after He returns.
    The statement is clearly one of salvation and NOT one of judgement.

  9. #54
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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    I've lived long enough to know that 37 years is not such a long time that one would forget a man like Jesus.
    They didn't even know who he was during his lifetime. Judas had to point out which person Jesus even was and that was to the Jews arresting him, and the Roman's had never heard of him and found him not guilty of any crime. Only the Jewish leadership knew and hated him not the average Jewish person and certainly not the average Roman.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    They didn't even know who he was during his lifetime. Judas had to point out which person Jesus even was and that was to the Jews arresting him, and the Roman's had never heard of him and found him not guilty of any crime. Only the Jewish leadership knew and hated him not the average Jewish person and certainly not the average Roman.
    I disagree. The multitudes followed Jesus. It was a "movement." As for identifying someone, it may have been a little more difficult than it is today, because everyone may have worn a beard back then. And without modern lighting, this may also have made identification more difficult. A lot of people tried to ignore him, however. You may try to marginalize him, but he came to Israel to reveal himself to them. He didn't fail.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So what you are stating is that you know the answer to your question - and that answer is that Jesus came to judge. Except this is where many disagree with your claim. he didn't come to judge, but to bring salvation.
    Yes, I've been upset for a long time that Christianity tends towards idealism. Christianity becomes almost cult-like when it stops being grounded in reality. Godly people suffer. God is involved in judging the world.

    I don't think Jesus came strictly to judge the world. He came to provide a way out so that men do not have to be judged. But the corollary to this is: if men do not accept his salvation, they will be judged--not just in the distant future, but also in the here and now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    There are things the prophets spoke of which Jesus has yet to fulfill. Isaiah 65 & 66 or Ezekiel 47 are clear examples. Most of the judgement they spoke of was already fulfilled before Jesus came or will be after He returns.
    The statement is clearly one of salvation and NOT one of judgement.
    History today isn't much different than it was in OT times. The same God works judgments in both eras.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You may try to marginalize him, but he came to Israel to reveal himself to them. He didn't fail.
    Yeah fine, who cares about trying to have a decent conversation right?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yeah fine, who cares about trying to have a decent conversation right?
    I was referring to the fact Jewish leaders in Jesus' time may have tried to treat Jesus as a "nobody." My argument is that this would not have worked, since Jesus was "bigger than life." Everybody noticed him, even if later on he was treated as a "false Messiah."

    I was not referring to *you* marginalizing Jesus! Rhetorically, if *one* tries to marginalize Jesus, as the Jewish rabbis did in Jesus' time, it won't work.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I've been upset for a long time that Christianity tends towards idealism. Christianity becomes almost cult-like when it stops being grounded in reality. Godly people suffer. God is involved in judging the world.
    Grounded in reality is good.

    I don't think Jesus came strictly to judge the world. He came to provide a way out so that men do not have to be judged. But the corollary to this is: if men do not accept his salvation, they will be judged--not just in the distant future, but also in the here and now.
    Did Jesus come primarily to judge? No.
    Did He come to judge the here and now? No.
    Did He come to bring salvation? Yes.

    Here though might be the crux question - Did He come to bring salvation now?
    I would answer His salvation is primarily the future. However as He came to reintroduce us into a relationship with God, so it is also now.
    Anyone who rejects such a salvation, is already under judgement. A judgement since Adam.
    Did Jesus bring some new judgement? No.

    History today isn't much different than it was in OT times. The same God works judgments in both eras.
    God doesn't change, but does He utilise different methods or lead us on into His way? I would say yes.
    yet your position in the thread isn't about God, but about Jesus' first coming.
    So the answer remains, no He did not come to judge.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Grounded in reality is good.


    Did Jesus come primarily to judge? No.
    Did He come to judge the here and now? No.
    Did He come to bring salvation? Yes.

    Here though might be the crux question - Did He come to bring salvation now?
    I would answer His salvation is primarily the future. However as He came to reintroduce us into a relationship with God, so it is also now.
    Anyone who rejects such a salvation, is already under judgement. A judgement since Adam.
    Did Jesus bring some new judgement? No.

    God doesn't change, but does He utilise different methods or lead us on into His way? I would say yes.
    yet your position in the thread isn't about God, but about Jesus' first coming.
    So the answer remains, no He did not come to judge.
    Well yes, that's what the Bible says, that Jesus' earthly mission was to bring about legal salvation. But this doesn't discount his role as prophet, in which he proclaimed judgment against Israel. This was not just eternal judgment, but *national judgment* in the *here and now!*

    So I think we get caught up on Jesus' statements regarding his mission, which was in fact Salvation. And then we neglect all of Jesus' references to Judgment. I'm asking anybody to do a study on it. You will find that divine judgment did not change from OT to NT, as Christians often think. We didn't just suddenly learn, in history, about divine Grace! Grace has always been around. Jesus just came to give it a legal definition in terms of Eternal Salvation.

    So if Grace has always been around, and still continues, so also Judgment has always been around, and still continues.

    Again, in the OT Prophets you will read of divine judgment after divine judgment regarding a host of nations, including Israel. God uses acts of history to reveal His pleasure and displeasure. The lack of judgment often indicates divine patience, rather than a lack of divine concern. I think it's well to take a look at history, to see how nations rise and fall, and suffer consequences in their moral digression.

    I find it very unfortunate if Christians fail to see in their own lives how God operates in their particular circumstances to control us, so that we don't always "do what we want." The Spirit restrains us from doing certain things that otherwise may be perfectly okay. God wants us to know He is in charge. When we submit to God's leadership, we will experience spiritual blessing, and we will prosper in our pursuits. When we go rogue, and seek our own way, our lives will go downhill.

    I could write a personal story about this. I lived it in my teenage years, as I went from church boy to someone who 1st dabbled in the world, and then sold myself completely to the world. It's not something I ever wish to go through again.

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