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Thread: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

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    did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    As Christians we tend to emphasize salvation in Jesus' earthly ministry. We think he came the 1st time to bring salvation, and comes the 2nd time to bring judgment. Although there is truth in this, I think it causes us to somewhat distort the fact Jesus also came to bring judgment the 1st time, as well. Jesus came to die for sinners, not just to save them, but also to judge those who continued in their sin. What do you think?

    Jesus declared judgment against Jerusalem in his generation (70 AD). Can you think of any reason God would put off all judgment against sin until Jesus' 2nd Coming? Wouldn't that make God inconsistent with how He operated with Israel under the Law?

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As Christians we tend to emphasize salvation in Jesus' earthly ministry. We think he came the 1st time to bring salvation, and comes the 2nd time to bring judgment. Although there is truth in this, I think it causes us to somewhat distort the fact Jesus also came to bring judgment the 1st time, as well. Jesus came to die for sinners, not just to save them, but also to judge those who continued in their sin. What do you think?

    Jesus declared judgment against Jerusalem in his generation (70 AD). Can you think of any reason God would put off all judgment against sin until Jesus' 2nd Coming? Wouldn't that make God inconsistent with how He operated with Israel under the Law?
    I disagree that Jesus came with judgement the first time. We must acknowledge the distinction between condemnation and judgment. Jesus came to save by dying on the cross and condemned the Jews for disbelief. But actual judgment first came after his death and resurrection.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    I was always taught Jesus came the first time to set up His Kingdom, He was rejected and as a result, salvation is offered.

    John 3:17 for God did not send His Son to judge the workd but that the world mught be saved through Him.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Can you think of any reason God would put off all judgment against sin until Jesus' 2nd Coming?

    Grace, until the Gospel was preached in the whole world. Then would come the end.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As Christians we tend to emphasize salvation in Jesus' earthly ministry. We think he came the 1st time to bring salvation, and comes the 2nd time to bring judgment. Although there is truth in this, I think it causes us to somewhat distort the fact Jesus also came to bring judgment the 1st time, as well. Jesus came to die for sinners, not just to save them, but also to judge those who continued in their sin. What do you think?


    Jesus declared judgment against Jerusalem in his generation (70 AD). Can you think of any reason God would put off all judgment against sin until Jesus' 2nd Coming? Wouldn't that make God inconsistent with how He operated with Israel under the Law?
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    I was always taught Jesus came the first time to set up His Kingdom, He was rejected and as a result, salvation is offered.


    John 3:17 for God did not send His Son to judge the workd but that the world mught be saved through Him.
    Hi Randy and David, it seems to me that the Lord came here the first time to make salvation possible for His own, IOW 1. for all who believed before He died (because we know that the blood of bulls and goats saved no one .. Hebrews 10:4) and 2. for all who came/will come to believe afterwards. He came to do those things for us that we cannot do for ourselves, by providing us the with the innocence and righteousness we need to stand before a Holy God, and to atone for our sins by dying in our places on the Cross (which He knew He was going to do before the world began). So I don't believe His first appearance concerned either judgment or the establishment of His Kingdom, both of which come later.

    These verses come to mind:


    John 12
    46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
    47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

    John 18
    36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

    ~Deut
    Matthew 5
    16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


    Matthew 7
    12 However you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


    1 Corinthians 13
    1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

    1 Peter 3
    15 Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.


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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As Christians we tend to emphasize salvation in Jesus' earthly ministry. We think he came the 1st time to bring salvation, and comes the 2nd time to bring judgment. Although there is truth in this, I think it causes us to somewhat distort the fact Jesus also came to bring judgment the 1st time, as well. Jesus came to die for sinners, not just to save them, but also to judge those who continued in their sin. What do you think?

    Jesus declared judgment against Jerusalem in his generation (70 AD). Can you think of any reason God would put off all judgment against sin until Jesus' 2nd Coming? Wouldn't that make God inconsistent with how He operated with Israel under the Law?
    There is no doubt that our Lord Jesus brought judgment at His first sojourn on earth. He was judged for our sins, the "prince of this world was judged", and unbelief was judged (John 9:39, 12:31, 16:11). But the judgment that came on Israel is the natural end of a broken Law. Even if our Lord Jesus was not around, the effects/curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 would have had their natural course. Remember, the Fig Tree is judged as having no fruit BEFORE Christ's death, and cursed.

    Although you are correct in saying that some form of judgement against sin comes before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, we cannot apply the conditions of the Law of Moses, given to ONE nation on earth, to those who are not under this Contract. But we find judgement against Herod (Act.12:23) and also in the Church (Ananias and Sapphira, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5, those Christian who ate the Lord's Tabel unworthily in 1st Corinthians 11 and Alexander the coppersmith in 1st Timothy 1:20). Furthermore, every Christian Assembly who puts a blatant sinner out according to Matthew 18 executes divine judgement.

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I disagree that Jesus came with judgement the first time. We must acknowledge the distinction between condemnation and judgment. Jesus came to save by dying on the cross and condemned the Jews for disbelief. But actual judgment first came after his death and resurrection.
    I don't understand your distinction between condemnation and judgment? If Jesus came to "condemn the Jews for disbelief," and if after his 1st coming "actual judgment came," aren't you saying that both condemnation and judgment took place right after his 1st coming?

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    I was always taught Jesus came the first time to set up His Kingdom, He was rejected and as a result, salvation is offered.

    John 3:17 for God did not send His Son to judge the workd but that the world mught be saved through Him.
    Yes, that is the "salvation" part that I acknowledged was true. But I'm asking if you see a "judgment" side to his 1st Coming as well?

    I've also heard what you described, that Jesus came to establish his Kingdom, but found the Jews unworthy of it. I don't happen to believe in that, however.

    I think Jesus fully knew he was coming and would meet Jewish resistance to his Kingdom. So I don't believe he came the 1st time to set up his Kingdom at all. Rather, he came to be rejected, resisted, and killed.

    His plan was to come much later, after the gospel had expanded from Israel to the rest of the pagan world. Since Israel was found unworthy, what would prevent the pagan world from having equal access to God's mercy?

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Grace, until the Gospel was preached in the whole world. Then would come the end.
    So how do you deal with Jesus' declaration of imminent judgment upon Jerusalem in Luke 21?

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post
    Hi Randy and David, it seems to me that the Lord came here the first time to make salvation possible for His own, IOW 1. for all who believed before He died (because we know that the blood of bulls and goats saved no one .. Hebrews 10:4) and 2. for all who came/will come to believe afterwards. He came to do those things for us that we cannot do for ourselves, by providing us the with the innocence and righteousness we need to stand before a Holy God, and to atone for our sins by dying in our places on the Cross (which He knew He was going to do before the world began). So I don't believe His first appearance concerned either judgment or the establishment of His Kingdom, both of which come later.

    These verses come to mind:


    John 12
    46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
    47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

    John 18
    36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

    ~Deut
    Yes, we all agree that Jesus came for the purpose of saving some. Are you then denying that there is any aspect to Jesus' 1st Coming that has to do with judgment in this age?

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Grace, until the Gospel was preached in the whole world. Then would come the end.
    One thing though Paul did state four times that the gospel was preached to the whole world in his time (which I believe is what Jesus refers to in the Olivia discourse)

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    There is no doubt that our Lord Jesus brought judgment at His first sojourn on earth. He was judged for our sins, the "prince of this world was judged", and unbelief was judged (John 9:39, 12:31, 16:11). But the judgment that came on Israel is the natural end of a broken Law. Even if our Lord Jesus was not around, the effects/curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 would have had their natural course. Remember, the Fig Tree is judged as having no fruit BEFORE Christ's death, and cursed.

    Although you are correct in saying that some form of judgement against sin comes before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, we cannot apply the conditions of the Law of Moses, given to ONE nation on earth, to those who are not under this Contract. But we find judgement against Herod (Act.12:23) and also in the Church (Ananias and Sapphira, the incestuous brother of 1st Corinthians 5, those Christian who ate the Lord's Tabel unworthily in 1st Corinthians 11 and Alexander the coppersmith in 1st Timothy 1:20). Furthermore, every Christian Assembly who puts a blatant sinner out according to Matthew 18 executes divine judgement.
    We don't agree on the continuing efficacy of the Law. But we do agree on the continuing judgment that is meted out in the name of God in the present age. Thank you! So many Christians want to emphasize strictly on the salvation of Christ. Few seem willing to address anything having to do with Christ's purpose in judging the world *in the present age.* It is usually all relegated to some future age, to final judgment.

    But I find *lots* of evidence that even though salvation was Christ's primary interest, he came with equal purpose to destroy sin and evil. That cannot be separated, I feel, from God's purpose in saving us. To save us He must also show an interest in removing evil.

    Furthermore, I find it very inconsistent if God judged both Israel and pagan nations in the OT era, and then refuses to exercise the same standard of justice in the NT era! If Christ is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow, why would God suddenly let sin run rampant, without any judgment, in the present age? And why would God not discipline His children in the present age, when Hebrews said that very thing?

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So how do you deal with Jesus' declaration of imminent judgment upon Jerusalem in Luke 21?
    That imminent judgment wasn't final. The Gospel awaits all Jews who were dispersed that they may hear his voice, until the time when all the Gentiles hear before the end comes. God is calling all Jews to the reality of the heavenly Jerusalem....,through the achievements of Jesus Christ our Lord their redeemer.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    One thing though Paul did state four times that the gospel was preached to the whole world in his time (which I believe is what Jesus refers to in the Olivia discourse)
    Was Australia included in that? Every tribe on earth gets Gods grace and attention before the end.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: did Jesus come the 1st time to bring judgment?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, we all agree that Jesus came for the purpose of saving some. Are you then denying that there is any aspect to Jesus' 1st Coming that has to do with judgment in this age?
    Hi Randy, it's pretty hard to do that when you remind me that His purpose was to save "some" So yes, in that light, His 1st coming has to do with judgment as well, because the salvation of some results in the condemnation of the rest.

    Here's some Scripture that comes to mind. If you believe we are still not on the same page about this, please help me understand what you're actually getting at. Thanks

    John 3

    18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
    20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
    21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

    As well:

    John 9

    39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

    John 12
    31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

    ~Deut
    Matthew 5
    16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


    Matthew 7
    12 However you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


    1 Corinthians 13
    1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

    1 Peter 3
    15 Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.


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