Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 105

Thread: Heaven?

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,827

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Seriously man... the statement "that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." is speaking about his physical body!
    Yes. And what is death? The sundering of the parts of the man (Jas.2:26). If he is dead;
    1. his body is in the sepulcher
    2. his spirit has returned to God
    3. his soul has descended to Hades

    Added to this "David is NOT ascended into heaven" (Act.2:34)
    Added to this, the resurrection of those who are Christ's is only when He comes - and I gave those verses. But here they are again.
    • 1st Corinthians 15:23
    • 1st Thessalonians 4:16

    And just to seal the deal, what about:
    John 6:39; "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
    John 6:40; "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
    John 6:44; "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
    John 6:54; "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,827

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    God is the God of the living, not the dead. Meaning... David's body is dead, but David is alive.
    Well ... you are brave man to say David is alive, when Acts 2:29 says he is dead. If the Lord came this hour and found a man contradicting His Word - well ... . Would you like to reconsider?

    Your quote comes from Mark 12. Our Lord Jesus was arguing with the Sadducees. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. This is the context. It is not that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive, but God would not have said to be their God at the burning bush if they were to remain dead forever. This has implications, for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were promised a Land, AND DID NOT RECEIVE IT IN THEIR LIFETIMES. This leaves only TWO options;
    1. God is a liar, or
    2. God will raise them from the dead to inherit the Land and keep His Promises

    Thus, resurrection is guaranteed. THAT ... is the context.

  3. #78
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,827

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    is in Paradise with Jesus like the thief on the cross.


    Do a word search on Hades, the ESV gives 9 references, the YLT 11, all negative. The KJV doesn't use Hades in v27 and v31, but hell. Hades or hell will end up in the LOF and I am pretty sure David will not end up in the LOF.
    I'm sorry, I can't make out what your objection is.

    Abraham is in Hades. David is in Hades, The criminal crucified with our Lord Jesus is in Hades. And if you die today your soul will go to Hades. Our Lord Jesus WAS in Hades for three days and nights. Then He burst through the hold of death and left. But David is still there according to Acts 2.

    The use of the word "hell" in the King James is the result of the translators of 1611 still being under the influence of Catholic tradition. "Hell" is a concept made by men, but does not appear in the original texts. The Bible uses THREE words, and all THREE mean something different. They are;
    1. Gehenna, the CONDITION of unending burning
    2. Hades, the PLACE under the earth containing the souls of dead men
    3. Tartaroo, the PLACE under the earth where the angels who mated with women at Noah's time are keep in prison

    A good student of the Bible has FOUR books in his/her library:
    1. A literal translation like the King James
    2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
    3. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament words
    4. An Interlinear Bible

    With these four you will always be in the picture about which word is used and what it means.

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    7,282

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. And what is death? The sundering of the parts of the man (Jas.2:26). If he is dead;
    1. his body is in the sepulcher
    2. his spirit has returned to God
    3. his soul has descended to Hades

    Added to this "David is NOT ascended into heaven" (Act.2:34)
    Added to this, the resurrection of those who are Christ's is only when He comes - and I gave those verses. But here they are again.
    • 1st Corinthians 15:23
    • 1st Thessalonians 4:16

    And just to seal the deal, what about:
    John 6:39; "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
    John 6:40; "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
    John 6:44; "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
    John 6:54; "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
    You’re just repeating yourself now. We'll just amicably disagree ��. God bless you brother.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    5,096
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I'm sorry, I can't make out what your objection is.

    Abraham is in Hades. David is in Hades, The criminal crucified with our Lord Jesus is in Hades. And if you die today your soul will go to Hades. Our Lord Jesus WAS in Hades for three days and nights. Then He burst through the hold of death and left. But David is still there according to Acts 2.

    The use of the word "hell" in the King James is the result of the translators of 1611 still being under the influence of Catholic tradition. "Hell" is a concept made by men, but does not appear in the original texts. The Bible uses THREE words, and all THREE mean something different. They are;
    1. Gehenna, the CONDITION of unending burning
    2. Hades, the PLACE under the earth containing the souls of dead men
    3. Tartaroo, the PLACE under the earth where the angels who mated with women at Noah's time are keep in prison
    Depends how you define (describe) Hades. Would you agree with gotquestions?

    In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

    BTW, Moses and Elijah were not in Hades during the Transfiguration [Matt 17].

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    12,819
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Heaven?

    There are three Greek words translated "hell"; Geenna, Hades, and Tartaroo.

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    1067

    1067 geenna {gheh'-en-nah}

    of Hebrew origin 01516 and 02011; TDNT - 1:657,113; n f

    AV - hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12

    1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or
    "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom,
    south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the
    city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and
    their future destruction.


    This word is the type of hell that is the final punishment, known as the lake of fire in Revelation.




    Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


    86

    86 hades {hah'-dace}

    from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc

    AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11

    1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
    2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
    3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

    In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
    a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
    receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
    the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.


    This is not the same hell, but is where the dead are who lived bad lives. Its known as purgatory, death and the grave.

    This hell is what is cast into and destroyed by the other "Hell" ie: the lake of fire:


    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    5020

    5020 tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}

    from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades);; v

    AV - cast down to hell 1; 1

    1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by
    the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer
    punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
    2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus


    This is the third word and is a holding place for very evil souls. It is also known as the pit in Revelation where satan is held for 1000 years. It is a special place within Hades.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,827

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    You’re just repeating yourself now. We'll just amicably disagree ��. God bless you brother.
    Yes. I agree. But it is interesting how many times a man must repeat himself. As the initiator of the Thread about Matthew 7:21.23, I had to read, and answer everybody (just to honor their participation). You you not believe how many times I had to repeat myself. I do not expect everybody to read everybody else's posts and my (or your) replies. But repetition is the order of the day. But I am encouraged. Have you every read through the Old Testament and seen how many times Jehovah repeated Himself concerning Israel? Seems like any man who takes it upon himself to lay forth the meaning of scripture, will get used to repetition.

    But, yes. We amicably disagree, and I wish you double the Lord's blessing.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,827

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Depends how you define (describe) Hades. Would you agree with gotquestions?

    In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).
    In posting #18 I wrote;

    Walls, posting #18, second paragraph
    At death only the body is unconscious and stops functioning. Because Israel where God's earthly people, had a piece of this earth, had a Law that was directed at the flesh, and had worship in a PLACE on earth, the Old Testament treats the death of an Israelite as the cessation of function. It speaks of the Body and the Grave (e.g. Ps.6:5, 30:9; Eccl.9:10; Isa.38:18, etc.). Since Israel's future is to again be on earth and occupy their Land, the function of an Israelite is centered around the body. So many verses treat the death of an Israelite a "sleep". They mean the BODY.
    I agree mostly with what you say. Because Israel were God's earthly seed "as the sand of the sea shore", their lives, aspirations and destiny is intimately tied with LIFE in the Promised Land of Canaan. Their blessings are earthy, their place of worship earthy, their Law addresses the flesh and their chastisement is on earth. Death for them is the cessation of their aspirations. So "Sheol" is used interchangeably with "grave" in many cases. But this does not detract from the OVERALL scheme of God to put the souls of dead men in a PLACE. And this PLACE, Hades, is vital to the (1) plan of God to resurrect all men (1st Cor.15:22), and (2) to the building of the Church (Matt.16:18). The Church is built with our BODIES (1st Cor.6:15), so Hades is a massive enemy to God's plan to build the Church because as long as Hades holds our souls, the bodies cannot be used to build the Church. Thus, our Lord Jesus is given the "keys" to Hades (Rev.1:18) so that He might, at His coming, empty Hades of the souls of "those asleep in Christ" so that the Church can be fully built in the Millennium.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    BTW, Moses and Elijah were not in Hades during the Transfiguration [Matt 17].
    Oh YES! Well said. Elijah is not a problem because he never died. He still is a "whole man - spirit, soul and body" (1st Thess.5:23). But Moses provides us with an interesting case. In Acts 7:22 we learn, "And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds." Moses was raised in Pharaoh's courts and must have been a brilliant man (according to this verse). He would have known how the Pyramids were built (which still baffles scientists and physics today). But he would have also been initiated into the religion of Egypt which came from Babylon. In this religion, the closest resemblance of which we have today is Free Masonry, Moses' BODY would have been promised to Lucifer. In Free Masonry, when a Mason dies, his body is claimed from his wife by the local Free Mason Lodge, and they bury him in a special way because of this promise. So Moses' BODY had to be "claimed back by God". And a battle ensues. We read in Jude 1:9, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

    Now, the tense of this verse is past tense. When this battle occurred we do not know. But it happened before the day that Jesus took 3 of His 12 disciples up the mount of Transfiguration - FOR MOSES APPEARED BODILY. That is, Michael, with God's intervention, must have got Moses' body back and then God RAISED Moses for this event. Thus, Elijah, who never died, and Moses who died and is raised, REPRESENT the saints at the Rapture - IN THEIR BODIES. There will be those who never died and those who died and were resurrected (1st Cor.15:51-52; 1st Thess.4:16-17) IN THE KINGDOM.

    So, well have you said that Moses and Elijah were not in Hades by Matthew 17.

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,827

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    There are three Greek words translated "hell"; Geenna, Hades, and Tartaroo.

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    1067

    1067 geenna {gheh'-en-nah}

    of Hebrew origin 01516 and 02011; TDNT - 1:657,113; n f

    AV - hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12

    1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or
    "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom,
    south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the
    city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and
    their future destruction.


    This word is the type of hell that is the final punishment, known as the lake of fire in Revelation.




    Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


    86

    86 hades {hah'-dace}

    from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc

    AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11

    1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
    2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
    3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

    In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
    a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
    receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
    the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.


    This is not the same hell, but is where the dead are who lived bad lives. Its known as purgatory, death and the grave.

    This hell is what is cast into and destroyed by the other "Hell" ie: the lake of fire:


    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    5020

    5020 tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}

    from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades);; v

    AV - cast down to hell 1; 1

    1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by
    the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer
    punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
    2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus


    This is the third word and is a holding place for very evil souls. It is also known as the pit in Revelation where satan is held for 1000 years. It is a special place within Hades.
    Yes. Well said.

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Chattanooga, TN
    Posts
    14,936

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Well ... you are brave man to say David is alive, when Acts 2:29 says he is dead. If the Lord came this hour and found a man contradicting His Word - well ... . Would you like to reconsider?
    His body was dead. God himself said that He is the God of the living and not the dead.

    Mark 12:26-27
    26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."
    NKJV

    Jesus makes a distinction above that shows the body is dead and will rise, but Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are alive even now though their bodies are dead!

    On the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses was alive though his body has been buried for thousands of years.

    Your quote comes from Mark 12. Our Lord Jesus was arguing with the Sadducees. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. This is the context. It is not that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive, but God would not have said to be their God at the burning bush if they were to remain dead forever. This has implications, for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were promised a Land, AND DID NOT RECEIVE IT IN THEIR LIFETIMES. This leaves only TWO options;
    1. God is a liar, or
    2. God will raise them from the dead to inherit the Land and keep His Promises

    Thus, resurrection is guaranteed. THAT ... is the context.
    The context is their body is dead and will not live again until the ressurrection. But the point is they are not dead even though their body is dead. THAT is the context.

    Its like the whole "known" thing. You can't just change the meaning willy nilly brother. God cannot be birthed in me without Him knowing me no more than Jesus could be in Mary without Him knowing her.

    Jesus is not lying when He says God is the God of the living, not the dead. Nor was He lying when he said that we would never die if we drank from the Living Water.

    Was Jesus lying when He said we would never die???? No He was not! Our bodies die, but we live forever. And at the resurrection, we'll get our new bodies.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    5,096
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    So, well have you said that Moses and Elijah were not in Hades by Matthew 17.
    Other than the transfiguration consider Eph 2

    4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

    We already (notable in our lifetime) sitting with Him in the heavenly places. Warning, upcoming rhetorical question is Jesus still in Hades?

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,827

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    His body was dead. God himself said that He is the God of the living and not the dead.

    Mark 12:26-27
    26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."
    NKJV

    Jesus makes a distinction above that shows the body is dead and will rise, but Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are alive even now though their bodies are dead!

    On the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses was alive though his body has been buried for thousands of years.



    The context is their body is dead and will not live again until the ressurrection. But the point is they are not dead even though their body is dead. THAT is the context.

    Its like the whole "known" thing. You can't just change the meaning willy nilly brother. God cannot be birthed in me without Him knowing me no more than Jesus could be in Mary without Him knowing her.

    Jesus is not lying when He says God is the God of the living, not the dead. Nor was He lying when he said that we would never die if we drank from the Living Water.

    Was Jesus lying when He said we would never die???? No He was not! Our bodies die, but we live forever. And at the resurrection, we'll get our new bodies.
    If scripture says that a man is dead, he is dead. "Dead" means that his parts are ripped apart and that he is unclean and naked. It means that he is useless for exercising the functions that God made him for - most notably building the Church, God's House. That the soul still is animated in Hades is not disputed, but that is not called "alive" by scripture. In 1 Corinthians 15, THE Chapter on resurrection, the word "dead" or "die" is used 14 times in context with this massive event called RESURRECTION. Verse 22 says; "For as in Adam ALL die, ... ."

    It is you that overthrows the simple word "death" that is used so many times for the ripping apart of the "Whole man". It is so real that it is the "Last ENEMY of God. Although the SOUL of man is animated and functions in Hades, the man is still dead. Revelation 20:13 even calls the souls of men in Hades - "DEAD"! It reads; "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and HADES delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." God is the "God of the living" BECAUSE there is a solution to DEATH - a solution that the Sadducees denied. And this solution is implicit in God's Name and Character because he promised so many people a Land, and "they died NOT having received the Promise". Men in Hades are DEAD. This is the plain language of scripture.

  13. #88

    Re: Heaven?

    Moses and Elijah are dead and their souls await in Sheol for resurrection day just like everyone else. Jesus said point-blank that no man had ever gone into heaven except for himself .

    (John 3:13)And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    This would have to include Elijah also, so the traditional understanding of Elijah or Enoch being taken up to heaven alive must be incorrect. Them appearing with Christ in Matt 17 is not proof of resurrection or immortality. Samuel was called up from Sheol in spirit by the witch of Endor in 1 Sam 28. She exclaimed that he had the appearance of a god as he was rising up (1 Sam 28:13), similar to the appearance of Moses and Elijah that the disciples saw with Jesus. Moses and Elijah were probably just called up from Sheol to speak with Jesus about something and returned after the event as did Samuel when he was disturbed.

    What's overlooked about the story of Elijah is that when Elisha died these same 'Chariot and Horsemen of Israel' came to collect him as well.

    What Elisha says as he's walking alongside Elijah in 2 Kings 2:12 - "My father! My father!" he cried. "The chariots and horsemen of Israel!"
    What king Jehoahaz says at Elisha's moment of Death in 2 Kings 13:14-15 - "My father! My father!" he cried. "The chariots and horsemen of Israel!"

    Exactly the same visions by two different witnesses yes? Elisha died after this vision was seen and his body was buried, he was not taken to heaven bodily. But the 'sons of the prophets' witnessed Elijah's body being taken skyward and out of sight by a whirlwind and were concerned for his well being. What I think happened is that Elisha saw the 'chariot and horsemen of Israel' coming to collect the soul of Elijah to Sheol. Something only Elisha witnessed but the 'sons of the prophets' did not. All they saw was Elijah being taken upward but didn't realize he was dead before he was taken up. Elisha knew he was dead, having seen the vision and wasn't too concerned about his dead body. God probably took the dead body of Elijah away to bury him secretly as he did with Moses. As the dead bodies of these powerful prophets contained within them God's residual power and the power to work miracles still. As seen when a dead man was cast into the grave of Elisha and rose back to life when he touched his bones (2 Kings 13:21). The bones of these dead men still had the power to work miracles. Which is why Satan probably wanted Moses's bones when he contended with Michael. And probably why God buries them secretly, so miracle working bone cults won't start up and start deceiving people.

    So while there are some mysterious circumstances during the life of Enoch, and the around the death of Moses and Elijah, any of them being taken up to heaven can be scratched off the list of possibilities because Jesus says plainly that no man has ever been taken to heaven except him.

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,827

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Other than the transfiguration consider Eph 2

    4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

    We already (notable in our lifetime) sitting with Him in the heavenly places. Warning, upcoming rhetorical question is Jesus still in Hades?
    I think this is another matter. The key to understanding the present tense in these verses is the small phrase "IN Christ". "IN Christ" points to our origin and standing. All men were IN Adam - in his loins. So 1 Corinthians 15:22 says; "For as IN Adam all die, even so IN Christ shall all be made alive." This means that ALL men were IN Adam when he sinned, and so this sin becomes our portion, and because the wages of sin is death, we are ALL liable to die. In Romans 5:14 it is; "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Our ORIGIN was IN a man with sin, and our standing now, some 6,000 years later is that we will die because of it. So also the Christian. He is not in heaven at the moment, but as to His ORIGIN and PRESENT STANDING IN CHRIST, he is seated WITH CHRIST in heavenly places.

    The second half of the verse above in 1st Corinthians 15:22 shows this adequately. "IN Christ shall ALL be made alive." Christ, because He made all things (Jn.1:3), is INITIATOR of the Old Creation - the one that was marred by Satan and man's rebellion. Here, the Person of Christ is shown as the INITIATOR of the New Creation in which all things are new and there is no death (Rev.21:1, 4). So all men must be raised. Thus, the standing of ALL men as regards the New Creation is IN Christ "who was MADE the life-giving Spirit" (verse 45).

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    4,827

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Moses and Elijah are dead and their souls await in Sheol for resurrection day just like everyone else. Jesus said point-blank that no man had ever gone into heaven except for himself .

    (John 3:13)And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    This would have to include Elijah also, so the traditional understanding of Elijah or Enoch being taken up to heaven alive must be incorrect. Them appearing with Christ in Matt 17 is not proof of resurrection or immortality.
    I realize that you have quite a good argument here, so before launching into a expanded explanation, may I point out the problems you have to deal with. This is not to make any scripture invalid or to pit any one scripture against another, but one has to consider these;
    1. 2nd Kings 2:1-11, in verses 1 and 11, categorically states that Elijah was taken up to heaven. So if you stand by your present understanding of John 3:13, you have made scripture to contradict itself
    2. There is NO scripture that says that Elijah ever died. Your theory that it was his BODY that went up in a chariot forces you to ADD to scripture something that is not there. It says Elijah went up.
    3. Them appearing with our Lord Jesus in Matthew 17 showed them in their BODIES. That means that at least Moses had experienced resurrection. Elijah being in his body produces no problems because, as I wrote in point #1 above, he has never died (yet)
    4. Your placing Moses back in Sheol, or Hades, means he must have died twice. This contradicts Hebrews 9:27.
    5. You have to explain the seeming anomaly of John 3:13. The "ascending" comes before the descending. That means Christ had already "ascended", and the grammar is past tense. When did He "ascend" before "descending" by John 3?
    6. You have to show why John 3:13 reports that, "... even the Son of man which is in heaven." (present tense). He was NOT in heaven then, but speaking to the disciples on earth.

    See the problems? You might want to deal with these if you want to hold to your theory about no man "ascending" (past tense) to heaven, except Jesus, Who had not yet ascended. He had not even ascended much later when He met Mary in the garden of His tomb in John 20:17.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Discussion Is our reward really heaven? Is Heaven our home?
    By uric3 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: Mar 10th 2016, 08:57 PM
  2. Rewards in heaven/levels or positions in heaven-New Thread
    By Nobody101 in forum Christians Answer
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Oct 5th 2014, 12:09 PM
  3. Rewards in heaven/levels or positions in heaven
    By Oregongrown in forum Christians Answer
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: Oct 3rd 2014, 08:41 AM
  4. Hell or Heaven vs Soul Cleansing then Heaven
    By jewess in forum Christians Answer
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Mar 28th 2009, 11:19 PM
  5. Replies: 32
    Last Post: Aug 21st 2008, 09:09 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •