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Thread: Heaven?

  1. #61
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    It was for mercy why Jesus descended first! He ripped the hinges off the gates from Hades, releasing the Saints who had died under the old covenant. This was the very moment these Saints had been waiting for! They went to be with God and that is where all Saints go now. Jesus made the way.

    There are several passages of scripture describing how and when Christ ascended. He had to return to the disciples because at this point, eyewitnesses of 2-3 people is what establishes the truth about situations such as these, and in this case there must have been 100's if not 1,000s of eyewitnesses to His resurrection.

    He also waited to permanently ascend in order to give the disciples instructions and to tell them what will happen in the future.
    Then you must explain what I have repeatedly said. How come, if what you say is true, you;
    • cannot give any scriptures. That would settle the matter instantaneously (I means scriptures that say this DIRECTLY)
    • you cannot explain why David, the (1) most obedient man ever, (2) "man after Gd's own heart", and (3) man who wrote so much about Jesus in the Psalms (making him a Believers in Jesus) is still in Hades in Acts 2 - 53 days after Christ DESCENDED, 50 days after Christ ASCENDED, and 10 days after Christ is RAPTURED?

    There were "above" 513 who saw Him resurrected (1st Cor.15:5-6).

    There were a large number of Old Testament saints raised "after" Jesus (Matt.27:52-53). But they, like Elijah and our Lord Jesus, went BODILY to heaven. We speak of the DEAD, the DISEMBODIED, going to heaven, or NOT going to heaven.

  2. #62
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    You can read that differently -

    34. For David did not ascend into the heavens

    as

    Unlike Christ David did not ascend into the heavens
    Yes, no one can aacsend up by their own power to heaven, bodily, like Christ did. This doesn't say there are no souls in heaven
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  3. #63
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I only said that the spirit of man was made of three parts. I gave them, but never said that the dead saint was cut off from fellowship with the Lord. To the contrary I gave proofs to the opposite in posting #48. What say you to this posting?
    The reason those verses say that about our soul praising God is because the spirit and the soul never separate!!

  4. #64

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Then you must explain what I have repeatedly said. How come, if what you say is true, you;
    • cannot give any scriptures. That would settle the matter instantaneously (I means scriptures that say this DIRECTLY)
    • you cannot explain why David, the (1) most obedient man ever, (2) "man after Gd's own heart", and (3) man who wrote so much about Jesus in the Psalms (making him a Believers in Jesus) is still in Hades in Acts 2 - 53 days after Christ DESCENDED, 50 days after Christ ASCENDED, and 10 days after Christ is RAPTURED?

    There were "above" 513 who saw Him resurrected (1st Cor.15:5-6).

    There were a large number of Old Testament saints raised "after" Jesus (Matt.27:52-53). But they, like Elijah and our Lord Jesus, went BODILY to heaven. We speak of the DEAD, the DISEMBODIED, going to heaven, or NOT going to heaven.
    There are several scriptures showing us exactly what happened after Jesus broke the hinges off the gates of Hades and ascended up on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. Eph 4:8

    This verse in Ephesians describes Jesus freeing the righteous and taking them straight to the 3rd heaven! This heaven is where God is! His throne sits in this heaven.

    We also learn paradise/hades was moved to the 3rd heaven because Paul confirms it by telling us that a man was caught UP into paradise 2 cor 12:2-4.

    When the righteous die, we depart to be with Christ, Phil 1:23, I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is better.

    Enough evidence to resolve the issue.

  5. #65
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    There are several scriptures showing us exactly what happened after Jesus broke the hinges off the gates of Hades and ascended up on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. Eph 4:8

    This verse in Ephesians describes Jesus freeing the righteous and taking them straight to the 3rd heaven! This heaven is where God is! His throne sits in this heaven.

    We also learn paradise/hades was moved to the 3rd heaven because Paul confirms it by telling us that a man was caught UP into paradise 2 cor 12:2-4.
    Neither places were moved.
    Paradise and Hades are two vastly different places.
    Paradise has always been "up".
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  6. #66

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Neither places were moved.
    Paradise and Hades are two vastly different places.
    Paradise has always been "up".
    I don't have time right now to gather all the verses, but old testsment saints went to a place referred to as Abraham's Bosom and the unrighteous went to Sheol, there were two parts to this place, a chism separated the two. One side the righteous, abraham's bosom, the other the unrighteous.

    If Walls hasn't provided verses to show these, I can later.

  7. #67
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    I don't have time right now to gather all the verses, but old testsment saints went to a place referred to as Abraham's Bosom and the unrighteous went to Sheol, there were two parts to this place, a chism separated the two. One side the righteous, abraham's bosom, the other the unrighteous.

    Yes, which proves they are two places that are separate and separated. It's not one place nor have any of the places been moved.

    Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


    Here we see the beggar is carried off by angels to get to Abraham's bosom but the rich man was buried and he woke up to being in hell. It shows they are in two different places and one is up and one is down. Other scriptures affirm heaven/paradise/Abraham's bosom is indeed considered to be up from the Earth while hell etc is down below. The "chism" between them is extremely vast.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #68

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes, which proves they are two places that are separate and separated. It's not one place nor have any of the places been moved.

    Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


    Here we see the beggar is carried off by angels to get to Abraham's bosom but the rich man was buried and he woke up to being in hell. It shows they are in two different places and one is up and one is down. Other scriptures affirm heaven/paradise/Abraham's bosom is indeed considered to be up from the Earth while hell etc is down below. The "chism" between them is extremely vast.
    Those in Abraham's bosom were able to see through the chism, if one was up and the other in the center of the earth, it would not be possible.

    There is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus, no one went up until Christ made the way, now that we have been redeemed, been reconciled to God, we are able to be in His presence through Christ and is why we are with the Father whrn we die...now.

  9. #69
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    There are several scriptures showing us exactly what happened after Jesus broke the hinges off the gates of Hades and ascended up on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. Eph 4:8

    This verse in Ephesians describes Jesus freeing the righteous and taking them straight to the 3rd heaven! This heaven is where God is! His throne sits in this heaven.

    We also learn paradise/hades was moved to the 3rd heaven because Paul confirms it by telling us that a man was caught UP into paradise 2 cor 12:2-4.

    When the righteous die, we depart to be with Christ, Phil 1:23, I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is better.

    Enough evidence to resolve the issue.
    Then why can you not explain posting 61? Explain that and I will show that Ephesians 4:8 shows the OPPOSITE of what you propose. But first explain posting 61.

  10. #70

    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Then why can you not explain posting 61? Explain that and I will show that Ephesians 4:8 shows the OPPOSITE of what you propose. But first explain posting 61.
    Provide a verse please, I see nothing that indicates David was not part of the Saints being taken to heaven by Christ.

  11. #71
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Provide a verse please, I see nothing that indicates David was not part of the Saints being taken to heaven by Christ.
    The whole text is Acts 2:27-35, but for our discussion I will show the pertinent verses.

    27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    ...
    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    ...
    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."


    The Lord Jesus only spent three days in Hades. His body did not start to rot as Lazarus' did. Then He left Hades. But David ...
    • "IS" (present tense on the Day of Pentecost) still dead, and his sepulcher (with David's rotting bones in it) was still there in Jerusalem (v.29)
    • "IS" (present tense on the day of Pentecost) "not ascended to heaven" (like Jesus). That leaves him STILL in Hades (v.34)
    • must stay there till Jesus defeats the enemies of Israel which is at Armageddon at the end of this age when Christ comes again (v.35)

    To this agrees scripture that the dead, in order to leave Hades, must RISE, seeing it is at the heart of the earth. In ...
    1. 1st Corinthians 15:23 this only happens when Christ comes again
    2. 1st Thessalonians 4:16 this only happens when Christ comes again

  12. #72
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The whole text is Acts 2:27-35, but for our discussion I will show the pertinent verses.

    27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    ...
    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    ...
    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."


    The Lord Jesus only spent three days in Hades. His body did not start to rot as Lazarus' did. Then He left Hades. But David ...
    • "IS" (present tense on the Day of Pentecost) still dead, and his sepulcher (with David's rotting bones in it) was still there in Jerusalem (v.29)
    • "IS" (present tense on the day of Pentecost) "not ascended to heaven" (like Jesus). That leaves him STILL in Hades (v.34)
    • must stay there till Jesus defeats the enemies of Israel which is at Armageddon at the end of this age when Christ comes again (v.35)

    To this agrees scripture that the dead, in order to leave Hades, must RISE, seeing it is at the heart of the earth. In ...
    1. 1st Corinthians 15:23 this only happens when Christ comes again
    2. 1st Thessalonians 4:16 this only happens when Christ comes again
    Seriously man... the statement "that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." is speaking about his physical body!

  13. #73
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The whole text is Acts 2:27-35, but for our discussion I will show the pertinent verses.

    27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    ...
    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    ...
    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool."


    The Lord Jesus only spent three days in Hades. His body did not start to rot as Lazarus' did. Then He left Hades. But David ...
    • "IS" (present tense on the Day of Pentecost) still dead, and his sepulcher (with David's rotting bones in it) was still there in Jerusalem (v.29)
    • "IS" (present tense on the day of Pentecost) "not ascended to heaven" (like Jesus). That leaves him STILL in Hades (v.34)
    • must stay there till Jesus defeats the enemies of Israel which is at Armageddon at the end of this age when Christ comes again (v.35)

    To this agrees scripture that the dead, in order to leave Hades, must RISE, seeing it is at the heart of the earth. In ...
    1. 1st Corinthians 15:23 this only happens when Christ comes again
    2. 1st Thessalonians 4:16 this only happens when Christ comes again
    God is the God of the living, not the dead. Meaning... David's body is dead, but David is alive.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  14. #74
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    Those in Abraham's bosom were able to see through the chism, if one was up and the other in the center of the earth, it would not be possible.
    Only Abraham is mentioned being seen and in Jewish theology he was at the edge of the place at the gate so closer than anyone else would be allowed and still it says he was "afar" plus these are spiritual places so the rich man seeing and talking to Abraham doesn't mean that normally happens.


    There is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus, no one went up until Christ made the way, now that we have been redeemed, been reconciled to God, we are able to be in His presence through Christ and is why we are with the Father whrn we die...now.
    People have always went to the Father after dying. Christ was the first and only to bodily ascend to the father.

    Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
    Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  15. #75
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    Re: Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Lord Jesus only spent three days in Hades. His body did not start to rot as Lazarus' did. Then He left Hades. But David ...
    is in Paradise with Jesus like the thief on the cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    • "IS" (present tense on the Day of Pentecost) still dead, and his sepulcher (with David's rotting bones in it) was still there in Jerusalem (v.29)
    • "IS" (present tense on the day of Pentecost) "not ascended to heaven" (like Jesus). That leaves him STILL in Hades (v.34)
    Do a word search on Hades, the ESV gives 9 references, the YLT 11, all negative. The KJV doesn't use Hades in v27 and v31, but hell. Hades or hell will end up in the LOF and I am pretty sure David will not end up in the LOF.

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