Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

[Jason0047]

Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

I would say no. "Eternal Security" or a belief that says: "We can sin and still be saved on some level" is not a biblical teaching.

Nowhere do we see believers in Scripture saying they can disobey God's commands under the New Testament with them thinking they can still be saved.

Now, I know, some of you think that if a believer is not living holy, then they were never born again to begin with. But what of the story of the Prodigal Son? Was he always prodigal? Surely not. Scripture says that when the prodigal son returned home, the father said twice that he was "dead" and is "alive again" and that he was "lost" and is now "found."

IMO ~ "Eternal Security" or a "Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief" is built upon a foundation of sand. One has to ignore many warnings in Scripture in order to make such a belief work. Also, basic morality (doing good) should also tell a person that such beliefs are not correct, as well. No parable (or real world example) can be made out of such beliefs.

[Edial]

Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

I would say no. "Eternal Security" or a belief that says: "We can sin and still be saved on some level" is not a biblical teaching.

Nowhere do we see believers in Scripture saying they can disobey God's commands under the New Testament with them thinking they can still be saved.

Now, I know, some of you think that if a believer is not living holy, then they were never born again to begin with. But what of the story of the Prodigal Son? Was he always prodigal? Surely not. Scripture says that when the prodigal son returned home, the father said twice that he was "dead" and is "alive again" and that he was "lost" and is now "found."

IMO ~ "Eternal Security" or a "Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief" is built upon a foundation of sand. One has to ignore many warnings in Scripture in order to make such a belief work. Also, basic morality (doing good) should also tell a person that such beliefs are not correct, as well. No parable (or real world example) can be made out of such beliefs.

People do sin, yet are saved if they put their faith in Christ.

However, what is often missing in some, is repentance.

And people do not repent because they do not believe that the Bible is correct by calling some things that they do to be a sin.
And if they do not repent, then their confession in Christ are just words, since they reject some of what Christ said.
And if they reject some of what Christ said, they do not believe IN Christ, even if they do call themselves Christians.

Does this make sense?

Thanks,
Ed

[randyk]

Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

I would say no. "Eternal Security" or a belief that says: "We can sin and still be saved on some level" is not a biblical teaching.

Nowhere do we see believers in Scripture saying they can disobey God's commands under the New Testament with them thinking they can still be saved.

Now, I know, some of you think that if a believer is not living holy, then they were never born again to begin with. But what of the story of the Prodigal Son? Was he always prodigal? Surely not. Scripture says that when the prodigal son returned home, the father said twice that he was "dead" and is "alive again" and that he was "lost" and is now "found."

IMO ~ "Eternal Security" or a "Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief" is built upon a foundation of sand. One has to ignore many warnings in Scripture in order to make such a belief work. Also, basic morality (doing good) should also tell a person that such beliefs are not correct, as well. No parable (or real world example) can be made out of such beliefs.

Well, I'm an eternal security advocate, and have sin in my life. I'm walking in righteousness, but I also have sin in me. How do I know that? About every time I open my mouth I'm capable of saying something a little bit rude. Whenever I'm under pressure, the worst of me is capable of coming out. I spend my life apologizing.

Does this bother me? Not at all. Perfect people don't get into heaven...except of course Jesus himself. Everybody who gets into heaven gets there by grace, being forgiven of not just past sins but also present sins.

There are sins that damn a soul. Those are to be avoided. The sins that damn the soul really come from those who honestly hate Christ. Some love what Christ gives them, but don't love Christ himself. This is a matter of discernment.

Avoiding sin is important because we need to not be taken off our walk in righteousness by getting caught up in these things that do harm to God's Kingdom. When we are on the right path we prosper in God's Kingdom, shedding light on God and on His glory. The abundance of God's Spirit can then be lavished upon all those around us. Sin stops this.

[Cliff]

We need to keep this in view......

When Yeshua died for our sins, which ones were yet future? All of them!

If the Holy Spirit did not seal us unto the day of redemption when we first accepted Yeshua, there is no hope for anyone. I would be willing to bet that each and every one of us has at least one sin we have not confessed and sought forgiveness for. Sin can be one of commission, where we actually commit a wrong, or it can be a sin of omission, one that we failed to do something. For those that die suddenly, there is probably at least one sin in their life still not confessed to acknowledged.

I side with the security of the believer in Yeshua. I know in Whom I have placed my trust, and that He is able to keep me until the day of redemption of this physical body.

2 Timothy 1:12 (NKJV) For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NKJV) Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Job 19:25-27 (NKJV) For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (NKJV) For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

The only sin that will not be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is the testimony of the Spirit that Yeshua is the promised Messiah and the Son of God. In essence, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is the one of rejection of Yeshua. But for those that have accepted Yeshua.....

1 Corinthians 6:17 (NKJV) But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV) If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

[Edial]

[snip]

The only sin that will not be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is the testimony of the Spirit that Yeshua is the promised Messiah and the Son of God. In essence, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is the one of rejection of Yeshua.

OK, but if we believe in Christ yet do not believe that stealing is sin, we do not believe in his words.
And if we reject his words, don't we reject him?

[Edial]

Well, I'm an eternal security advocate, and have sin in my life. I'm walking in righteousness, but I also have sin in me. How do I know that? About every time I open my mouth I'm capable of saying something a little bit rude. Whenever I'm under pressure, the worst of me is capable of coming out. I spend my life apologizing.

Does this bother me? Not at all. Perfect people don't get into heaven...except of course Jesus himself. Everybody who gets into heaven gets there by grace, being forgiven of not just past sins but also present sins.

There are sins that damn a soul. Those are to be avoided. The sins that damn the soul really come from those who honestly hate Christ. Some love what Christ gives them, but don't love Christ himself. This is a matter of discernment.

Avoiding sin is important because we need to not be taken off our walk in righteousness by getting caught up in these things that do harm to God's Kingdom. When we are on the right path we prosper in God's Kingdom, shedding light on God and on His glory. The abundance of God's Spirit can then be lavished upon all those around us. Sin stops this.

But you are not rude here, it is a perfectly fine, very well written post.
Maybe the sin is not in rudeness itself, but the cause, trigger of what makes things come out rude.
Most people who are rude try very hard to be accepted in a society or a group and are competitive in nature. I, for example, was known for putting my foot in my mouth more often than I care to admit.
Once I became a Christian it began to bother me real bad.
But, the influence of the Spirit through "self-control", "patience", "the first will be last and the last will be first", "think before I speak" minimized this handicap to the least.
But if I would have said that it does not bother me, no healing would have come.

Does this make sense?

Thanks,
Ed

[Cliff]

OK, but if we believe in Christ yet do not believe that stealing is sin, we do not believe in his words.
And if we reject his words, don't we reject him?

Let's be brutally honest here..... Do you actually believe that anyone who rejects Yeshua's words have any interest in accepting Him to begin with? Yeshua clearly laid out the summation of the entire thing in two commandments.... Love God with all you heart and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. That would, by default, include not stealing.

The topic is the security of the believer... one who has already accepted Yeshua.

[Edial]

Let's be brutally honest here..... Do you actually believe that anyone who rejects Yeshua's words have any interest in accepting Him to begin with?

But many did have the interest in accepting Christ to begin with when they said the "sinner's prayer" ... and in time abandoned the faith.

Yeshua clearly laid out the summation of the entire thing in two commandments.... Love God with all you heart and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. That would, by default, include not stealing.

Not necessarily ... you can steal from a company and justify to yourself that they would never miss it. Which might be true, they would not miss it. But that still makes you a thief.

The topic is the security of the believer... one who has already accepted Yeshua.

OK, that is fine ... but how does one know he accepted Christ if he does not do (nor cares to do) some of what Christ says?

[Cliff]

We can bury ourselves in all kinds of "what if's" all our lives. Folks will try to justify a lot of things, but stealing from a company is the same as stealing from an individual. Heck, downloading copyright material is stealing.

Only Yeshua, the Father, and the Holy Spirit knows who truly accepted and placed their trust in Yeshua. Many folks may say "the sinner's prayer" in the heat of the moment, but never had any real knowledge or comprehension of what they were doing and truly accepted Him as Lord.

And that goes to the last point. Only those who really understand who Yeshua is are going to trust in Him with a faith of Abraham that leads to salvation. And in doing so, they have an understanding of the basic principles of who He is and what entails being joined with Him. They may still commit various sins, as being in Messiah is also a growth process. We are justified (the penalty has been paid), but we are continually sanctified (set apart, nurtured, growth) from that time on until the end of our earthly life.

One way to know if we belong to Him, is if the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin in our lives. If one just goes around sinning without any caring about it, it is probably because they never did truly accept unto salvation and then sealed by the Holy Spirit to the day of redemption. And James made it clear that it is the works others can see that testify of the faith within us. Works and Fruits have equivalent meanings in the Greek. And what are those works?.....

James 2:14 (NKJV) What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works (fruits)? Can faith save him?

Galatians 5:22-23 (NKJV) But the fruit (works) of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

In the final analysis, none of us have any ability, and it is not in our pay grade, to determine who is truly saved and who is not. All we are told we can do is be fruit inspectors.

But one thing we can know.... if we sin and are convicted by the Holy Spirit that we have sinned, we are being instructed like children would be from a loving Father. The Holy Spirit will make us aware of sin we commit. That is the evidence that we have been sealed by Him and are justified before the Lord. If we continue to sin, we will be chastised for it, maybe even to the point of being taken out of the game, but that doesn't mean a loss of salvation. Ask Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5) in the future and they will explain it to you. Likewise, ask the guy who was living in adultery with his mother (1st and 2nd Corinthians) and he will expound on that as well.

And we can thank the Lord for the example of King David. What a character he was! That guy stepped all over his duffle bag many times. Yet, we know that he was given salvation. Moses also, no doubt he was saved, but because of his actions, he was not allowed to enter the promised land with the rest of Israel. There can be earthly consequences for our actions here, but that doesn't mean a loss of salvation.

[Edial]

Agreed with everything you said.

[randyk]

We need to keep this in view......

When Yeshua died for our sins, which ones were yet future? All of them!

If the Holy Spirit did not seal us unto the day of redemption when we first accepted Yeshua, there is no hope for anyone. I would be willing to bet that each and every one of us has at least one sin we have not confessed and sought forgiveness for. Sin can be one of commission, where we actually commit a wrong, or it can be a sin of omission, one that we failed to do something. For those that die suddenly, there is probably at least one sin in their life still not confessed to acknowledged.

I side with the security of the believer in Yeshua. I know in Whom I have placed my trust, and that He is able to keep me until the day of redemption of this physical body.

2 Timothy 1:12 (NKJV) For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Ephesians 4:30 (NKJV) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NKJV) Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Job 19:25-27 (NKJV) For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (NKJV) For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

The only sin that will not be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is the testimony of the Spirit that Yeshua is the promised Messiah and the Son of God. In essence, the only sin that cannot be forgiven is the one of rejection of Yeshua. But for those that have accepted Yeshua.....

1 Corinthians 6:17 (NKJV) But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV) If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

Good testimony, cliff! Just curious--are you a member of a messianic congregation? Or, do you use the word "Yeshua" just because?

[randyk]

But you are not rude here, it is a perfectly fine, very well written post.
Maybe the sin is not in rudeness itself, but the cause, trigger of what makes things come out rude.
Most people who are rude try very hard to be accepted in a society or a group and are competitive in nature. I, for example, was known for putting my foot in my mouth more often than I care to admit.
Once I became a Christian it began to bother me real bad.
But, the influence of the Spirit through "self-control", "patience", "the first will be last and the last will be first", "think before I speak" minimized this handicap to the least.
But if I would have said that it does not bother me, no healing would have come.

Does this make sense?

Thanks,
Ed

Sure it does! A good sign that you're still saved is the sense of your inherent sinfulness. You *want* to be righteous. You *want* to be pleasing to the Lord. I'm with you on that.

[Edial]

Sure it does! A good sign that you're still saved is the sense of your inherent sinfulness. You *want* to be righteous. You *want* to be pleasing to the Lord. I'm with you on that.

Yes, the desire to go the right way and never making peace with being in the wrong way is what confession/repentance is.

[TrustGzus]

Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

I would say no. "Eternal Security" or a belief that says: "We can sin and still be saved on some level" is not a biblical teaching.

Nowhere do we see believers in Scripture saying they can disobey God's commands under the New Testament with them thinking they can still be saved.

Now, I know, some of you think that if a believer is not living holy, then they were never born again to begin with. But what of the story of the Prodigal Son? Was he always prodigal? Surely not. Scripture says that when the prodigal son returned home, the father said twice that he was "dead" and is "alive again" and that he was "lost" and is now "found."

IMO ~ "Eternal Security" or a "Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief" is built upon a foundation of sand. One has to ignore many warnings in Scripture in order to make such a belief work. Also, basic morality (doing good) should also tell a person that such beliefs are not correct, as well. No parable (or real world example) can be made out of such beliefs.

Jason, the reality is that you have sinned in many ways today. You may be aware. You may not be aware. You sin every single day. So do I. So if sinning means we do not stay saved, then no one is saved.

[DavidC]

Yes, the desire to go the right way and never making peace with being in the wrong way is what confession/repentance is.

Repentance is agreeing with God about our sin.