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Thread: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    A slave to sin is mastered by that sin, a person stuck in homosexuality or gambling, these are people who, rather than obey God, they obey their sin, on the other hand, a person might speed to get to class, this is a sin but th3 person is not a slave to it.
    I don’t think there is room to condone any amount of sin as being acceptable. Jesus warned us about being lukewarm.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    I would think if a person spent their time worrying about their sin, did I sin, am I perfect yet, God's doors and His opportunities would shut as we would not ne looking for those, we'd be worrying about our state of sanctification instead.
    Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

    GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

    Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

    We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).

    Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

    Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.”

    Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

    Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

    Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

    Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT).

    Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34).

    John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 1:8).
    Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).
    Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB).

    Paul also says, “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 BSB).

    Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).

    Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?

    Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).

    John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

    John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4).

    John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16).

    For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).

    Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

    The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

    John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).

  2. #32
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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

    Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

    In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,
    "If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

    In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

    Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).
    The Apostle John is speaking in very general terms. The Christian, generally, does not disobey God. Generally speaking, the Christian keeps Christ's commands. There is no thought in this of sinless perfection. Rather, it has to do with what drives us as Christians. If we are born again, we ought to pursue the things of God, because Christ's nature has been planted within us.

    John also is speaking of the *sin nature,* and not just of individual sins. We must admit we have sin resident within us because it is the truth. We have to admit that within our carnal nature there is a drive towards rebellion against God's word, a drive to do what we want to do, as if we are in charge over our lives.

    So if we want salvation, we must come to the Lord acknowledging our selfish, rebellious nature, with the wish to receive help from the Lord in battling these desires. The deposit of the Spirit has been given us to give us an edge over the sinful tendencies. As long as we stay focused on Christ, who currently resides in heaven, we will be led by his example. We do have his power within us, enabling us to live like him, albeit imperfectly.

    There will never be a time in this life where you are free of the carnal nature. Sin will always be resident in these mortal bodies. But be of good cheer. His Spirit is within you. You can overcome these sinful tendencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason
    You are speaking in contradictory terms. On one hand you say "overcome sin" and on the other hand you say, "that Christian salvation overrides the fact sin resides in us."
    Those two statements are saying the same thing! The sin nature, and the sin urges, are within us. But we also have the deposit of the Spirit within us, which is more powerful than our carnal impulses. As long as we remain focused on Jesus, and are willing to obey, we can discard our carnal impulses. They are still there, but we can ignore them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason
    I see nothing of the sort when Jesus teaches against certain sins damning our souls. Jesus lists how various sins can cause a loss of salvation (See Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15). Paul also lists sins that can cause a loss of salvation (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Coritnhians 6:9-11). John also lists sins that can cause a loss of salvation (1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8). Nothing is said that these sins are the result of the condition of a person's character alone. These sins are emphasized to us believers because they can cause a loss of salvation if they are not repented of.

    The problem is denying the Sanctification process. The problem is not believing what Jesus and Paul says.

    Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).
    You are taking this ultra-literally, and thus falling into the trap 1 John 1 warned about, claiming you can be without sin. John specifically said not to do that!

    So what does John mean by "being perfect?" It is an acceptable word--"perfect"--even though it has this tendency to draw people towards legal perfection.

    But you have to see the background in which "legal perfection" is viewed under the Law. It never had to do with sinless perfection. People were covered with sacrifices, and had to be separated from the holy God, *all the time!* God only expected them to observe all of His laws faithfully. As for the imperfections, God would cover those by their commitment to the Law overall, and by the commitment to be His people. The priests would regularly cover all the people, keeping them in conformity to God's requirements, necessary to keep them as His people.

    So this never had to do with perfectionism. It only had to do with calling men into a covenant relationship, as opposed to an intermittent sacrifice or act of worship. It was a focus upon a single God and His requirements, as opposed to arbitrary religious devotion, scattered among different gods and different beliefs.

    In the NT Jesus clarified that true "perfection" of this type had to do with stepping up from rote performance under the Law to a heart-felt embrace of divine holiness. True religion actually loves from the heart, and as such, does not merely pay lip service to the idea of kindness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason
    Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

    Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

    Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    No. It means perfect. The word "blameless" is also used.

    Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

    If that was not enough, the 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).

    Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).

    No. There are many Scripture verses that talk about perfection in this life.

    No it is not. It does no good to just admit sin if you are not sorry. There are many sinners who admit that what they do is wrong and yet they do not change and they are not sorry. A person who is truly sorry (repented) over their sin will stop sinning. You can read about this in the Parable of the two sons.

    If David was saved in his adultery and murder, then this would mean God's grace is a license for immorality. This would mean that we are free to teach that we can also murder and commit adultery and still be saved, too. But the Bible does not teach such a thing. David needed the joy of his salvation back (See Psalms 51). Jude 1:4 warns us against turning God’s grace into a license for immorality.
    No, salvation by grace is not an excuse for sin. You have a very difficult road ahead of you. Good luck!

  3. #33

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I don’t think there is room to condone any amount of sin as being acceptable. Jesus warned us about being lukewarm.



    Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

    GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

    Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

    We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).

    Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

    Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.”

    Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

    Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

    Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

    Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT).

    Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34).

    John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 1:8).
    Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).
    Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB).

    Paul also says, “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 BSB).

    Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).

    Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?

    Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).

    John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

    John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4).

    John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16).

    For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).

    Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

    The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

    John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).
    You are deceived and should stop spreading this false teaching.

  4. #34
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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    I would say no. "Eternal Security" or a belief that says: "We can sin and still be saved on some level" is not a biblical teaching.

    Nowhere do we see believers in Scripture saying they can disobey God's commands under the New Testament with them thinking they can still be saved.

    Now, I know, some of you think that if a believer is not living holy, then they were never born again to begin with. But what of the story of the Prodigal Son? Was he always prodigal? Surely not. Scripture says that when the prodigal son returned home, the father said twice that he was "dead" and is "alive again" and that he was "lost" and is now "found."

    IMO ~ "Eternal Security" or a "Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief" is built upon a foundation of sand. One has to ignore many warnings in Scripture in order to make such a belief work. Also, basic morality (doing good) should also tell a person that such beliefs are not correct, as well. No parable (or real world example) can be made out of such beliefs.
    You sin every day whether you realize it or not. Do you constantly go from saved to not saved to saved multiple times per day? What happens if you die during a sin?

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

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  5. #35
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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    The problem seems to stem from folks not understanding what justification and sanctification mean, and their difference.

    Acts 13:38-39 (NKJV) Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Romans 3:20 (NKJV) Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Romans 3:28 (NKJV) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    Now, either we are justified, or made right, before God by Yeshua once and for all when we place our trust in Him or we are not. If we are not, then He didn't accomplish what He came to earth to do. His death and resurrection were in vain.

    But, after that justification, we are then set apart, or sanctified, for God. We grow by the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit, being readied by Him so that He will present us one day to the Messiah as the unblemished bride. A study in how the servant of Abraham procured a bride for Isaac and prepared her is a radically clear picture of how the Holy Spirit prepares the bride (the ecclesia) for the Messiah.

    Hebrews 2:11 (NKJV) For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren (notice how sanctification is both active and continual... a process unlike justification which is a one time event)

    Hebrews 10:14 (NKJV) For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (notice the present active tense of sanctified vs the past tense of perfected)

    We see what sanctification is... being set apart....

    Jude 1:1 (NKJV) Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
    To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

    And to enforce the idea that when we were justified, or made right to God and it is a permanent condition.....

    1 John 2:1-2 (NKJV) My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

    John 6:38-40 (NKJV) For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    Blessed is Yeshua! Our salvation!

    Here I see two hands cupped together. Those that place their trust in Yeshua are preserved in both His and the Father's hands. Two hands tightly cupped so that nothing can steal us away. It is as clear a picture of the security of the believer if there ever was one.

    John 10:27-30 (NKJV) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

  6. #36
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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    You sin every day whether you realize it or not. Do you constantly go from saved to not saved to saved multiple times per day? What happens if you die during a sin?
    You can ask a 3th, 4th time, it looks like you won't get an answer.

  7. #37
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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Jason, the Corinthian church was a mess and had lots of sins. If sinning causes one to not stay saved, why isn’t 1 Corinthians filled with warnings about this! No book should have more warnings than this book, yet their absence is very loud.

    Grace & peace,

    Joe
    Not only were they full of sin and issues, but Paul started out calling them saints and then praised them, reminding them who they were in Christ before he ever started correcting them.

    1 Cor 1:2-9


    2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:


    3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


    4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
    NKJV
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).
    In Him, I am perfect.

    GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).
    As a temple of the Lord, I am holy.

    Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).
    In Him, we can overcome all sin we know about and these folks knew they were sinning.

    We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).

    Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

    Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.”

    Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

    Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

    Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

    Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT).

    Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34).

    John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 1:8).
    Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).
    Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB).

    Paul also says, “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 BSB).

    Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).

    Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?

    Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).

    John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

    John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4).

    John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16).

    For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).

    Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

    The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

    John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).
    All sin that we know of in us, we can surely overcome! Yet, whoever says he is without sin, is a liar for no one has yet reached the fullness of the image of Jesus and is totally and completely without any sin.

    1 John 1:8

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    NKJV

    Paul, at then end of his ministry said he was the worst of sinners.

    1 Tim 1:15
    15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
    NKJV

    Notice that Paul did not say "was" but said "am" as in present tense. As one grows in the Lord, he begins to realize just how much self love he has in himself. Self love is the root of all our sin for all three roots (lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, and boastful pride of life, are rooted in loving self and pleasing self. Ultimately, that is what the Lord is after to turn our affections away from self and towards Jesus. But the more we love Jesus, the more broken we realize we are, the more we come to realize we have great love of self and the more, like Paul, we begin to see ourselves as often worse than any others around us. Though we also know we have come further, and have grown in the Lord, and are more like Him than we have ever been. Its just that we see ourselves more clearly, both in Him, and what would be without Him. It is very humbling indeed!

    It is true that we can overcome all sin we know about. But, just as we do not teach 2 year olds how to lay down their lives for their family, neither do we teach those young in the faith the fullness of the covenant. Even God led Israel south because their hearts were not yet ready for war. That means those old strongholds like Jericho and Zion, stayed in enemy hands until Israel has sufficiently learned about God to go and conquer them. So it is with new believers today... parts of their lives stay under enemy control until they have learned enough from the Lord to actually fight against them and overcome them.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  9. #39

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    In Him, I am perfect.



    As a temple of the Lord, I am holy.



    In Him, we can overcome all sin we know about and these folks knew they were sinning.



    All sin that we know of in us, we can surely overcome! Yet, whoever says he is without sin, is a liar for no one has yet reached the fullness of the image of Jesus and is totally and completely without any sin.

    1 John 1:8

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    NKJV

    Paul, at then end of his ministry said he was the worst of sinners.

    1 Tim 1:15
    15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
    NKJV

    Notice that Paul did not say "was" but said "am" as in present tense. As one grows in the Lord, he begins to realize just how much self love he has in himself. Self love is the root of all our sin for all three roots (lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, and boastful pride of life, are rooted in loving self and pleasing self. Ultimately, that is what the Lord is after to turn our affections away from self and towards Jesus. But the more we love Jesus, the more broken we realize we are, the more we come to realize we have great love of self and the more, like Paul, we begin to see ourselves as often worse than any others around us. Though we also know we have come further, and have grown in the Lord, and are more like Him than we have ever been. Its just that we see ourselves more clearly, both in Him, and what would be without Him. It is very humbling indeed!

    It is true that we can overcome all sin we know about. But, just as we do not teach 2 year olds how to lay down their lives for their family, neither do we teach those young in the faith the fullness of the covenant. Even God led Israel south because their hearts were not yet ready for war. That means those old strongholds like Jericho and Zion, stayed in enemy hands until Israel has sufficiently learned about God to go and conquer them. So it is with new believers today... parts of their lives stay under enemy control until they have learned enough from the Lord to actually fight against them and overcome them.
    It's like we are sanctified and BEING sanctified at the same time (well, hopefully the 2nd is true if we're participating with God).

  10. #40

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    We have no right to judge what is a sin.

    That is for the Lord to deside

  11. #41

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by kathydixon View Post
    Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    We have no right to judge what is a sin.

    That is for the Lord to deside
    God has told us already what is sin, it's all over the Bible. Thr Bible also says after we take the plank out of our own eye, we can see clearly to rebuke a brother in sin.

    So yes, we can judge a brother in sin and has given the church authority to call a pereon out on their sin.

    Regardless, the op is about a pereon becoming sinless while on this earth, and no, it's not true.

  12. #42
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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    You are deceived and should stop spreading this false teaching.
    If this is so, then why are you not explaining the plain straight forward meaning of the many verses I put forth?
    Do you need more verses that say the same thing?

  13. #43

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    If this is so, then why are you not explaining the plain straight forward meaning of the many verses I put forth?
    Do you need more verses that say the same thing?
    I, and others, have already tried explaining it all.

    You are in the letter of the law and not the Spirit of the law......it's legalistic and it sets up rules for YOU, that you won't be able to keep.

    Good luck in your quest.

  14. #44
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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    It's like we are sanctified and BEING sanctified at the same time (well, hopefully the 2nd is true if we're participating with God).
    We are redeemed and being sanctified. That means the biker who accepted Christ, but still hangs out with his buds living worldly, is redeemed... in time, the evidence will begin to show as the sanctification process bears viable fruit. The person begins to be convicted of the sin they are doing, they begin to turn away, change in their lifestyle, they leave behind friendships that drag them into sin and they resist. In some cases, their testimony of Christ in their life helps some (or all) of those friendships to leave the sinfulness in their lives and in time... a bunch of bikers for Christ and another ministry is lifted up to do Kingdom work.

    Such change, doesn't happen over night. SOME change can happen in the moment of belief... seen it. Last year in August we had a Christian concert in town. Seventh Day Slumber, Random Hero, The Protest, Scarlet White and Gold, Frankincense and Myrreh(GFM). The pastor who organized the rock concert gave a testimony of a person who came to the concert intending to sell drugs... after all, it was a "ROCK" Concert in a town that has never had a rock concert Seems in listening to all the songs, listening to the testimonies that the singers were speaking about God, how their lives were changed, how God led them out from addictions, anger, failing marriages etc... this person went to the prayer tent and gave his life over to Christ and destroyed all the drugs he had with him as well. That person is now attending church... not sinning anymore, hardly. But day by day is changing (being sanctified). Helping prepare for the same concert series this year too!!
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The Apostle John is speaking in very general terms. The Christian, generally, does not disobey God. Generally speaking, the Christian keeps Christ's commands. There is no thought in this of sinless perfection. Rather, it has to do with what drives us as Christians. If we are born again, we ought to pursue the things of God, because Christ's nature has been planted within us.
    Again, you are speaking in contradictory terms. You are either keeping Christ's commands or you are not keeping them. There is no generally speaking in regards to keeping Christ's commands (that are tied to salvation or our right standing with God).

    "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (Matthew 7:18).
    "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Matthew 6:24).
    "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34).
    "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:8).

    As for Christ being planted in us:
    “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

    The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

    Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

    "Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." (Philippians 1:11).

    12 "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
    (Philippians 2:12-13).

    12 If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
    13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit."
    (1 John 4:12-13).

    Jesus says, "...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
    (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    John also is speaking of the *sin nature,* and not just of individual sins. We must admit we have sin resident within us because it is the truth. We have to admit that within our carnal nature there is a drive towards rebellion against God's word, a drive to do what we want to do, as if we are in charge over our lives. You are... falling into the trap 1 John 1 warned about, claiming you can be without sin. John specifically said not to do that!
    No. 1 John 1:8-10 is not talking about the sinful nature. You yourself are saying it is in reference to indivdual sins as a warning to me. Actually, John is warning his fellow brethren against the gnostic belief that says that sin does not exist for them when we see that they sin. It is the same for those who say all their sins are forgiven: past, present, and future because they have a belief on Jesus. They believe their sin is not being accredited to their account because of their belief on Jesus. So if they sin, they are still saved because they believe Jesus took away their sin. So 1 John 1:8 not talking about a sinful nature because 1 John 1:8 is talking about sin in the present tense and 1 John 1:10 is talking about sin in the past tense. Also, nowhere is there any talk of Adam's sin nature here, as well. It is talking about the actual acts of sin and in keeping God's commands (or loving the brethren, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    So if we want salvation, we must come to the Lord acknowledging our selfish, rebellious nature, with the wish to receive help from the Lord in battling these desires. The deposit of the Spirit has been given us to give us an edge over the sinful tendencies. As long as we stay focused on Christ, who currently resides in heaven, we will be led by his example. We do have his power within us, enabling us to live like him, albeit imperfectly.
    Actually, all three persons of the Godhead can indwell the believer. But if you say we as believers are going to sin at some unknown future date (even just a little) as if it is a matter of fact, that is not going to go over well with God, my friend. God is holy. He expects us to have the mindset of being holy, as well. Yes, we may even stumble and fall on our road or path to walking perfectly in this life. But we have to have faith in God and always do the right thing and never have the mindset that we will sin again even on occasion. For that would be like the alcoholic who says he is sober free and yet he still stumbles into getting drunk on occasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    There will never be a time in this life where you are free of the carnal nature. Sin will always be resident in these mortal bodies. But be of good cheer. His Spirit is within you. You can overcome these sinful tendencies.
    Again. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
    1 Peter 4:1-2 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin; So we should not live the rest of our time to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    So what does John mean by "being perfect?" It is an acceptable word--"perfect"--even though it has this tendency to draw people towards legal perfection.
    If there is no form of obedience being tied to perfection than it doesn't make any sense.

    Try looking at the context of the list of 50 verses I have compiled that deal with being perfect.
    The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).

    Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).

    Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

    GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

    Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

    Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).

    We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).

    Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

    James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).

    Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).

    Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

    Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

    Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

    Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT). Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34). John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8).

    Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).

    Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB). Paul also says, “But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).

    Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).

    Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?

    Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).

    John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

    John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4). John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).

    Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

    The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

    John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).

    Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).

    Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

    Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

    Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

    James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

    Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

    Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

    Paul says, “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” (Ephesians 4:1).

    Paul says, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul also says, “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

    Zacharias says, “That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75).

    Paul says, “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:20-23).

    Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

    Paul says,“Men, brothers, I have conducted-myself with all good conscience before God up to this day” (Acts 23:1 DLNT)

    Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).

    Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).

    Paul says, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2).

    Paul says, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11).

    Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

    The author Hebrews says, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).

    Paul says, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27). Jesus says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19). For Jesus says, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).

    John says, “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).

    Paul says, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    Jesus says, “So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:10-13). A Multitude of People in Heaven says, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.(Revelation 19:7-8). Note: the fine linen that represents the righteousness of the saints is the same wedding garment that the man at the wedding did not have on.

    Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

    John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    But you have to see the background in which "legal perfection" is viewed under the Law. It never had to do with sinless perfection. People were covered with sacrifices, and had to be separated from the holy God, *all the time!* God only expected them to observe all of His laws faithfully. As for the imperfections, God would cover those by their commitment to the Law overall, and by the commitment to be His people. The priests would regularly cover all the people, keeping them in conformity to God's requirements, necessary to keep them as His people.
    Well, the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin for good. They were a temporary atonement. They had to keep revisiting the same sins year after year. But with Jesus, their past sins would forever be forgiven. So it's a New Covenant. Yes, we are all ultimately saved by Jesus. The Old Covenant saint looked to the coming Messiah to save them. The New Covenant saint looks to Jesus as their Savior today. We are also under a new set of Commands because it is a New Covenant, too. Paul did not condemn the idea of keeping God's laws as a part of being right with God (after being saved by the Lord's Jesus Christ and His grace). Paul condemned the false pharisee religion and the keeping of the Old Covenant ceremonial Laws like circumcision, etc. Paul says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    So this never had to do with perfectionism. It only had to do with calling men into a covenant relationship, as opposed to an intermittent sacrifice or act of worship. It was a focus upon a single God and His requirements, as opposed to arbitrary religious devotion, scattered among different gods and different beliefs.
    It does have to do with perfection. Just do a search for the words "perfect", "perfected," and "perfection" at BlueLetterBible. You can try and change the word because you do not like it, but that would not be wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    In the NT Jesus clarified that true "perfection" of this type had to do with stepping up from rote performance under the Law to a heart-felt embrace of divine holiness. True religion actually loves from the heart, and as such, does not merely pay lip service to the idea of kindness.
    Of course. We have to love as a part of obeying God's commands in the New Testament. The two greatest commands is to love God, and to love your neighbor.

    But what you said sounds more like James. He says, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27).

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    No, salvation by grace is not an excuse for sin. You have a very difficult road ahead of you. Good luck!
    In Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5, Paul was referring to how we are saved by God's grace through faith without works when we first come to Him. Ephesians 2:1 says we are quickened by the Lord. Ephesians 3:17 talks about how Christ may dwell in our hearts. So this is talking about "Initial Salvation." Titus 3:5 says we are saved by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost. This again is a one time event. You are washed once by the Holy Ghost. So this is also talking about "Initial Salvation." Also, the works Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:9 are man directed works. We are not saved by these kinds of works. We are saved by the works of God done through us (After we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior). Ephesians 2:10 speaks of the Lord's works done through us.

    Anyways, saying that salvation is by 100% grace and does not include works in any way is a person saying they do not need oxygen as they breath it. You believe works will follow and yet you do not believe we are saved by works. This is contradictory. Either one needs works as a part of the salvation process or one does not need them as a part of salvation.

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