Page 4 of 19 FirstFirst 123456789101112131415 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 281

Thread: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

  1. #46

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    We are redeemed and being sanctified. That means the biker who accepted Christ, but still hangs out with his buds living worldly, is redeemed... in time, the evidence will begin to show as the sanctification process bears viable fruit. The person begins to be convicted of the sin they are doing, they begin to turn away, change in their lifestyle, they leave behind friendships that drag them into sin and they resist. In some cases, their testimony of Christ in their life helps some (or all) of those friendships to leave the sinfulness in their lives and in time... a bunch of bikers for Christ and another ministry is lifted up to do Kingdom work.

    Such change, doesn't happen over night. SOME change can happen in the moment of belief... seen it. Last year in August we had a Christian concert in town. Seventh Day Slumber, Random Hero, The Protest, Scarlet White and Gold, Frankincense and Myrreh(GFM). The pastor who organized the rock concert gave a testimony of a person who came to the concert intending to sell drugs... after all, it was a "ROCK" Concert in a town that has never had a rock concert Seems in listening to all the songs, listening to the testimonies that the singers were speaking about God, how their lives were changed, how God led them out from addictions, anger, failing marriages etc... this person went to the prayer tent and gave his life over to Christ and destroyed all the drugs he had with him as well. That person is now attending church... not sinning anymore, hardly. But day by day is changing (being sanctified). Helping prepare for the same concert series this year too!!
    That's awesome!!

    I can see where my writing was error, sancification takes a life time and it seems like it will not be easy as Peter wrote a lot about trials, Paul was trained by extreme hardships.

    It's like 1 step forward and 10 steps back sometimes, but with each step forward we manifest more of Christ.

    Thanks, Slug!

  2. #47

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    I, and others, have already tried explaining it all.

    You are in the letter of the law and not the Spirit of the law......it's legalistic and it sets up rules for YOU, that you won't be able to keep.

    Good luck in your quest.
    Paul was not condemning the keeping of Christ's commandments (in the gospels) or the commands of the Lord he gave us by his own written hand. That would be contradictory.

    Paul says,
    "3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..."
    (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    Jesus says,
    "...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

    Both Jesus and Paul condemned the false pharisee religion (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Matthew 23:15, Philippians 3:5-7).

    After Christ's death on the cross, the New Covenant officially began. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom when Christ died. The law on the priesthood and the animal sacrifices were no more. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Paul condemned going back to the ceremonial laws that were for Israel, like circumcision.

    "...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).
    "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? (Romans 3:1).

    So Paul was not talking about "law" in general when he condemned the Law. Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus; And Paul was not referring to the commands he gave to others (that were by the commandments of the Lord) (See 1 Corinthians 14:37).
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

  3. #48

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    God has told us already what is sin, it's all over the Bible. Thr Bible also says after we take the plank out of our own eye, we can see clearly to rebuke a brother in sin.

    So yes, we can judge a brother in sin and has given the church authority to call a pereon out on their sin.

    Regardless, the op is about a pereon becoming sinless while on this earth, and no, it's not true.
    Then what do you make of 1 Peter 4:1-2 and Galatians 5:24?

    Please pay special attention to verse 2 in 1 Peter 4:1-2.

    I mean, when I read verses like this:

    "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

    I cannot say to myself.... well that just doesn't mean what it says because I personally think it is not possible to perfectly obey God in this life.

    Jesus said, "with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26).

    My faith is not in what I see. I trust God's Word by faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.

    If God says it is possible, then it is possible. It does not matter if you don't see anybody obeying God.
    Noah and his family were the only ones on the Ark. The rest of the world was destroyed for their wickedness.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

  4. #49

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    In Him, I am perfect.
    How do we have an assurance that we are in the Lord?

    1 John 2:3 says,
    "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

    But what is the context of Jesus saying, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"?

    44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven"
    (Matthew 5:44-45).

    So this is in view of taking action.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    As a temple of the Lord, I am holy.
    Yet, on the other hand Scripture says, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"
    (1 Corinthians 3:17).

    In Matthew 15:16-20, Jesus said, “Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.”

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    In Him, we can overcome all sin we know about and these folks knew they were sinning.
    All sin that we know of in us, we can surely overcome! Yet, whoever says he is without sin, is a liar for no one has yet reached the fullness of the image of Jesus and is totally and completely without any sin.

    1 John 1:8

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    NKJV
    Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

    Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

    In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

    "If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
    (1 John 1:8 NET).​

    In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Paul, at then end of his ministry said he was the worst of sinners.

    1 Tim 1:15
    15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
    NKJV
    Come on now. Paul was talking about his past old life. Not his life in Christ.

    Verse 13 says,

    "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief." (1 Timothy 1:13).

    Was (Saul) Paul a persecutor of Christians before or after he was saved?

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Notice that Paul did not say "was" but said "am" as in present tense.
    An ex soccer player can say they are the best soccer player who has ever lived. That does not mean they are still playing soccer. Anyways, verse 13 is the context of verse 15.

    As one grows in the Lord, he begins to realize just how much self love he has in himself. Self love is the root of all our sin for all three roots (lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, and boastful pride of life, are rooted in loving self and pleasing self. Ultimately, that is what the Lord is after to turn our affections away from self and towards Jesus. But the more we love Jesus, the more broken we realize we are, the more we come to realize we have great love of self and the more, like Paul, we begin to see ourselves as often worse than any others around us. Though we also know we have come further, and have grown in the Lord, and are more like Him than we have ever been. Its just that we see ourselves more clearly, both in Him, and what would be without Him. It is very humbling indeed!
    We walk by faith and not by sight. Jesus says, "with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26).

    What things are possible?

    2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24. Take your pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    It is true that we can overcome all sin we know about. But, just as we do not teach 2 year olds how to lay down their lives for their family, neither do we teach those young in the faith the fullness of the covenant. Even God led Israel south because their hearts were not yet ready for war. That means those old strongholds like Jericho and Zion, stayed in enemy hands until Israel has sufficiently learned about God to go and conquer them. So it is with new believers today... parts of their lives stay under enemy control until they have learned enough from the Lord to actually fight against them and overcome them.
    God convicts believers of their sin.
    The Holy Spirit will reprove the world of it's sin because they believe not on Jesus Christ (John 16:8-9).
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Chattanooga, TN
    Posts
    14,467

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    It does have to do with perfection. Just do a search for the words "perfect", "perfected," and "perfection" at BlueLetterBible. You can try and change the word because you do not like it, but that would not be wise.
    What does the Greek word translated "perfect" mean? For that matter, what does the English word "perfect" mean as it was translated in the KJV all those years ago? What does the word "perfect" mean in Hebraic culture? I can tell you this, it doesn't mean without flaw as we take it to mean today.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Chattanooga, TN
    Posts
    14,467

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    How do we have an assurance that we are in the Lord?

    1 John 2:3 says,
    "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

    But what is the context of Jesus saying, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"?
    I highly recommend looking into the Greek definition and English definition of the word "perfect". You are using it in a way the Hebrews never used it.

    More importantly, what were the commandments John was speaking about? He names them here:

    1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
    NASB

    1 John tells us how we have assurance:

    1 John 5:10-14
    10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son. 11 And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

    13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
    NASB

    Yet, on the other hand Scripture says, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;"
    (1 Corinthians 3:17).
    Yep. Gives us an illustration of that very thing in 1 Cor 5! Let's look.

    1 Cor 3:16-17

    16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
    NASB

    First, we are Holy because God is in us. Not because of anything we do. What did the ground do that Moses was standing on to become holy? Why was the ground holy?

    Now, 1 Cor. 5 gives us a great example of what God was speaking about when he said he would destroy a man that defiled the temple. It is an especially good example because Paul is dealing with someone that was sinning in the exact way outlined in 1 Cor. 3. Paul had spoken of lust being a sin against one's own body.

    1 Cor 5:1-2

    5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles — that a man has his father's wife! NKJV

    So we see a man who is defiling his temple in a gross sexual way! But what did Paul recommend to be done with such a one?

    1 Cor 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    NKJV

    They were to separate from him and turn him over for the destruction of his body in order that his spirit could be saved. i.e. he was still holy and still the Lord's child. But it was time for him to be disciplined. Just as Israel was turned over to their enemies, so we are too in order for God to deal with the sin in us that we do not want to deal with. And thankfully, we see in 2 cor that it worked, just as God knew it would!

    2 Cor 2:5-11
    6 This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
    NKJV

    Glory hallelujah! God does not divorce us because of our rebellion! Praise His Holy Name! He does not abandon us in our sin, even if He gives us over to our sin!!! After the convition of the Holy Spirit, and the oppression of the devil, just like Israel, we will often see a man leave the Babylonian captivity to never return!

    Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?
    It says it plainly. There's simply no way of getting around it no matter how many hoops one jumps through.

    1 John 1:8

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us
    NKJV

    The word "have" is presence tense too just to be clear. The verses later, deal with past sin. Verse 8 deals with present sin. In this way, God has it all covered.

    Come on now. Paul was talking about his past old life. Not his life in Christ.
    There's nothing past about the words "I am the chief". That is present. Shows Paul's growth. Though he does go into his past in the later verses.

    God convicts believers of their sin.
    The Holy Spirit will reprove the world of it's sin because they believe not on Jesus Christ (John 16:8-9).
    Yet, God Himself led Israel south because their hearts were not yet ready for war. God doesn't lead you to battle in which you are not yet ready to fight. When someone gets saved, God will generally knock one or two kings in the head just like He did when Israel came out of Egypt. But there are still plenty of strongholds to conquer in the promised land! The heart has much to overcome! And in due time, God will lead all that are His there, so that they (we) can face the giant sins in our hearts and overcome them! What a glorious day that is indeed when we start eating of the fruit of the land!

    Praise His Holy Name! He knows our frailties and loves us anyway! My walk with Him does not keep me. He keeps me! And my sin is not greater than Christ's blood and can be overcome! Nor is my sin so great, that God's great is not greater still!
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    2,689

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Jason...

    Are you advocating "sinless perfection" theology ?

    If so.. then you are much further along than Abraham, David, Peter, and Paul himself. They all struggled with sin AS FOLLOWERS OF GOD. Can you explain how this is ? Is grace a something you are continually transferring into or out of ? Come on man.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    2,689

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    God convicts believers of their sin.
    You should expound more on this comment Jason. If a believer sins , and is convicted of it, then they are 1. A believer... 2. Sinned...

    You can't have it both ways.

  9. #54

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    You should expound more on this comment David. If a believer sins , and is convicted of it, then they are 1. A believer... 2. Sinned...

    You can't have it both ways.
    You quoted Jason, not me.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    2,689

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidC View Post
    You quoted Jason, not me.
    I saw that when I posted, but forgot to change it.. sorry David. I will edit the post.

    I am the poster boy for A.D.D.

  11. #56

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I saw that when I posted, but forgot to change it.. sorry David. I will edit the post.

    I am the poster boy for A.D.D.
    No worries, it's not a big deal, I just didn't want Jason to pass over it and not realize it was for him.

  12. #57

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    What does the Greek word translated "perfect" mean? For that matter, what does the English word "perfect" mean as it was translated in the KJV all those years ago? What does the word "perfect" mean in Hebraic culture? I can tell you this, it doesn't mean without flaw as we take it to mean today.
    Jesus relates being perfect with the Father (Matthew 5:48). Are you saying the Father is not perfect now?
    Jesus even says, "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40). Okay. Whatever you want to call "perfect", Jesus says whoever is _____ shall be as His master. So regardless, we are to be like Christ in our behavior. This tells me that the word "perfect" is accurate.

    Are you still not convinced?

    Philippians 2:15 says,
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;"

    It uses the word "blameless."

    Still not convinced?

    25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
    (Ephesians 5:25-26).

    I am not sure if you comprehended what was said above, but this passage is saying that Christ died for us so as to cleanse the body of believers (us) by the Holy Scriptures whereby He (Jesus) can present to himself a church that is without spot, without blemish, and who is holy.

    Titus 2:14 says a similar thing.

    "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

    Still not convinced?

    "Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16).

    Okay. Real simple here. God is telling us to be holy. Why? Because He is holy. If we could never truly live holy, then God would never tell us to "Be ye holy."

    Still not convinced?

    "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

    There are so many nuggets of gold in this verse.
    We have to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit.
    Yet, your big popular churches of today will say.... "Oh, no, no. We cannot stop sinning."
    I remember, driving by a church that said, "No perfect people allowed here."
    Well, I guess that disqualifies Jesus from entering their place.
    For Jesus was perfect.
    Anyways, in 2 Corinthians 7:1, we are told to PERFECT holiness in the FEAR of God.
    Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
    Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear?
    No doubt you do not believe the word "fear" means what it says at face value, too. Am I correct?
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

  13. #58

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    You should expound more on this comment Jason. If a believer sins , and is convicted of it, then they are 1. A believer... 2. Sinned...

    You can't have it both ways.
    Believers can sin on occasion in the beginning of their faith. They still need to mature and overcome their sin in this life. Most believers need to mature and learn to walk uprightly. I am not denying that a believer can sin. But a believer will not admit that they will always sin as a matter of fact. That is wrong. I believe it is possible that a new believer can walk uprightly. For saying that a believer will always sin in this life as a matter of fact is like an alcoholic who says he is sober free and yet he says he still gets drunk on occasion. Now, if he entered a drug program to be sober free, he can stumble on his road to recovery. But once he has recovered of his sin of alcoholism, he is not going to go back to eat the slop with the pigs again.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Chattanooga, TN
    Posts
    14,467

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Jesus relates being perfect with the Father (Matthew 5:48). Are you saying the Father is not perfect now?
    Jesus even says, "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40). Okay. Whatever you want to call "perfect", Jesus says whoever is _____ shall be as His master. So regardless, we are to be like Christ in our behavior. This tells me that the word "perfect" is accurate.
    Perfect does not mean what you think it means. It is not saying without flaw. While God is without flaw, what perfect means here is "mature, complete, etc." Go look at the meaning of the word.

    Philippians 2:15 says,
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;"

    It uses the word "blameless."
    Paul said he was "blameless" before he was saved. But he never says he was without sin before he was saved.

    25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
    (Ephesians 5:25-26).
    Exactly! Christ presents to Himself a church without fault. Through His blood, He cleanses us so that we are as He is. That doesn't happen from our efforts but from His!


    "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).
    Exactly! Christ purifies us! His blood and grace is greater than all our sin! It is He who purifies us.

    Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16).
    When He is in us, we are holy as He is holy. That quote is from the food laws. How do the food laws make us holy in the NT? It is a good study!

    Okay. Real simple here. God is telling us to be holy. Why? Because He is holy. If we could never truly live holy, then God would never tell us to "Be ye holy."
    He didn't tell us to "live holy" but to "be holy". We are holy when He is in us in the same way the burning bush and the ground was holy because God was there.

    "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).
    Amen! Notice it doesn't say "already cleansed" but to "let us cleanse ourselves from filthiness". The apostle Peter included himself in that note and therefore admitted he still has some cleansing to do from filtheness of the flesh. He had not arrived either. Tenses matter in the scriptures.

    Yet, your big popular churches of today will say.... "Oh, no, no. We cannot stop sinning."
    I never said we can't stop sinning. We can overcome all sin we know about. But sanctification takes time. Taking the promised land happens one step at a time and God's promise to Abraham was "everywhere your foot treads" and so it is with our heart... when we take on our own heart and deal with all its lusts, pride, etc. we do so one step at a time and one stronghold at a time.

    No doubt you do not believe the word "fear" means what it says at face value, too. Am I correct?
    Yet another judgment! The Greek word that Jesus uses for fearing God is where we get our word "phobia" from. It is a genuine fear, though I would say it not the kind of fear one has of a tyrant but rather, the fear one should have a father where they fear to disobey.

    Do you think a man can divorce his wife for doing something wrong against him?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  15. #60

    Re: Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Jason...

    Are you advocating "sinless perfection" theology ?
    Well, Jesus said to "sin no more" (John 8:11) (John 5:14); And Jesus said to "be ye perfect" (Matthew 5:48).
    You can put those two phrases together and say that is what Jesus is indeed saying.

    Also, the Bible does not say that if you have not achieved a state of being sinless perfect, you are not saved. So we have to be careful to just stick to those things that the Bible does clearly condemn. The Bible does teach that we will not have salvation if we die in unrepentant (unconfessed) sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, lying, etc. The Bible also does talk about minor transgressions or faults that would not condemn us. These are character flaws or things like knowing to take out the trash last night (when you knew you should have) and yet you didn't do it. Obviously God is not going to send us to hell for not doing certain things that are not clearly spelled out within His Word. We are to love God and to love our neighbor (Which includes all people). 1 John 5:16-17 talks about sins that do not lead unto spiritual death.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    If so.. then you are much further along than Abraham,
    There is a difference between condoning that we will sin again as a matter of fact at some unknown future date vs. sinning on occasion as a part of the Sanctification process on the road to recovery over sin in this life. Abraham did not say, "I know I will sin again." Yes, Abraham sinned, but he did not have a mind set that sin was his master.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    David,
    David repented or confessed of his sin of adultery and murder. He did not remain in these sins and nor did he later say horrific things like, "I know we will always sin in this life, Lord." No, no. David said that he hid God's Word in his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord (See Psalms 119:11).

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Peter,
    Peter talked about false prophets or teachers who could not cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1) (2 Peter 2:14).

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    ...and Paul himself.
    No doubt you believe this took place in Romans 7.
    But in Romans 7:14-24, Paul was recounting his experience as Saul when he was a part of the false Pharisee religion that turned salvation into a system of works (with very little to no grace from God).

    #1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

    #2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    They all struggled with sin AS FOLLOWERS OF GOD.
    No doubt you believe this happened for their entire lives. Do doubt that is what you want to see. But that is not what the Scriptures actually say.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Can you explain how this is ? Is grace a something you are continually transferring into or out of ? Come on man.
    Yes, you can be saved and then lose your salvation.

    In the Parable of the Prodigal Son: When the son returned home from his life of sin (or in being prodigal), his father said to his son that he was "dead" and is now "alive again." His father also said that he was "lost" and now he is "found." (See Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32).
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Eternal Security vs OSAS
    By longtooth in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 75
    Last Post: Apr 17th 2018, 05:39 PM
  2. Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved is Absolutely True
    By SavedByGraceByFait in forum Apologetics and Evangelism
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: Oct 24th 2013, 02:57 PM
  3. Discussion Eternal Security...
    By Lady Ashanti in forum Apologetics and Evangelism
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: Sep 11th 2008, 03:06 PM
  4. Remarriage and Eternal Security
    By sallyhunter1 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 78
    Last Post: Oct 25th 2007, 11:42 AM
  5. Eternal Security (Once Saved Always Saved)
    By lordzboy in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 236
    Last Post: Apr 20th 2007, 02:59 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •