Is Eternal Security or a Sin and Still Be Saved Belief biblical?

[Cliff]

Good testimony, cliff! Just curious--are you a member of a messianic congregation? Or, do you use the word "Yeshua" just because?

Ha ha! Probably more of a "just because" I suppose. I am just a goofy old Gentile white boy! I have studied a lot of the faith as it is perceived from a Messianic Jewish perspective. Those folks can really enlighten a lot of how the Tanakh (OT) is all about the Messiah, Yeshua. Every little nugget in the OT speaks of Him.

To the point of this thread, the law regarding the cities of sanctuary for one who is guilty of the unintentional death of someone. What we would call manslaughter today.

We are all guilty of the death of Yeshua. No one gets out of that charge. But when He was on the cross, He stated "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". That was Him proclaiming, as our advocate, that we are not guilty of Murder, but manslaughter.

So, if one is guilty of manslaughter, they are to flee to one of the cities of refuge, as established in the Scripture. As long as one stays in the city of refuge, the next of kin, the Goel, cannot put a hand on that person out of vengeance. Yeshua is our city of refuge. We are to flee to Yeshua and then the next of kin, the Father, will not execute vengeance on us for killing His Son. How long do we stay there? According to the Law, until the death of the High Priest. Yeshua is our High Priest and He will never die again!

So the law regarding the city of refuge when we are guilty of manslaughter was a picture to show us of the Messiah. The Torah is laced with all sorts of these things in the law that speak of Yeshua.

Even the way Israel was set up when they camped in the wilderness. Take the numbers of the various tribes. One group camped north of the tabernacle, one east, one west, one south. To follow that prescription, say the group that camped north, they could not set any tents further east or west than the width of the tabernacle (one has to think like a Rabbi to get this). Each group had the same restriction in each direction they were laid out. The group that camped west, they could only be as wide as the north or south width of the tabernacle.

Take the numbers of the various tribes, put them in their position around the tabernacle. If one was to fly over the camp of Israel and see how it laid out, it would be the shape of the cross of Calvary. Man, what a wonderful God!

And the names of the lineage from Adam to Noah. Take the meanings and lay them end to end, and you have a sentence that is the New Testament Gospel if there ever was one!

Adam = man
Seth = Appointed
Enoch = mortal
Kenan = sorrow
Mahalalel = Blessed God
Jared = come down
Enoch = teaching
Methuselah = his death shall bring
Lamech = despairing
Noah = comfort.

Now in a sentence......

Man is appointed mortal sorrow. The blessed God shall come down teaching that His death shall bring the despairing comfort or rest.

Wow. The complete gospel in the lineage from Adam to Noah! Every detail in the Tanakh speaks of Yeshua! All praise, glory, and honor to Him!

[Cliff]

Repentance is agreeing with God about our sin.

Or more literally, doing a "180" and turning away from that sin. You are right, we agree with the Lord that what we done was sin. But true repentance is turning away from it and heading in the other direction, or doing a "180" and getting away from it as fast as we can!

[randyk]

Ha ha! Probably more of a "just because" I suppose. I am just a goofy old Gentile white boy! I have studied a lot of the faith as it is perceived from a Messianic Jewish perspective. Those folks can really enlighten a lot of how the Tanakh (OT) is all about the Messiah, Yeshua. Every little nugget in the OT speaks of Him.

To the point of this thread, the law regarding the cities of sanctuary for one who is guilty of the unintentional death of someone. What we would call manslaughter today.

We are all guilty of the death of Yeshua. No one gets out of that charge. But when He was on the cross, He stated "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". That was Him proclaiming, as our advocate, that we are not guilty of Murder, but manslaughter.

So, if one is guilty of manslaughter, they are to flee to one of the cities of refuge, as established in the Scripture. As long as one stays in the city of refuge, the next of kin, the Goel, cannot put a hand on that person out of vengeance. Yeshua is our city of refuge. We are to flee to Yeshua and then the next of kin, the Father, will not execute vengeance on us for killing His Son. How long do we stay there? According to the Law, until the death of the High Priest. Yeshua is our High Priest and He will never die again!

So the law regarding the city of refuge when we are guilty of manslaughter was a picture to show us of the Messiah. The Torah is laced with all sorts of these things in the law that speak of Yeshua.

Even the way Israel was set up when they camped in the wilderness. Take the numbers of the various tribes. One group camped north of the tabernacle, one east, one west, one south. To follow that prescription, say the group that camped north, they could not set any tents further east or west than the width of the tabernacle (one has to think like a Rabbi to get this). Each group had the same restriction in each direction they were laid out. The group that camped west, they could only be as wide as the north or south width of the tabernacle.

Take the numbers of the various tribes, put them in their position around the tabernacle. If one was to fly over the camp of Israel and see how it laid out, it would be the shape of the cross of Calvary. Man, what a wonderful God!

And the names of the lineage from Adam to Noah. Take the meanings and lay them end to end, and you have a sentence that is the New Testament Gospel if there ever was one!

Adam = man
Seth = Appointed
Enoch = mortal
Kenan = sorrow
Mahalalel = Blessed God
Jared = come down
Enoch = teaching
Methuselah = his death shall bring
Lamech = despairing
Noah = comfort.

Now in a sentence......

Man is appointed mortal sorrow. The blessed God shall come down teaching that His death shall bring the despairing comfort or rest.

Wow. The complete gospel in the lineage from Adam to Noah! Every detail in the Tanakh speaks of Yeshua! All praise, glory, and honor to Him!

Yea, I think there's lots of hidden gems in the Scriptures. The numbers do hold an interest for me, because they do not appear to be arbitrary. There's 12 tribes of Israel. There are also 12 ribs in a man, and 12 cranial nerves in his brain. There is the number 5 associated with different elements in the Tabernacle, eg the altar of burnt offering, the curtains, pillars, etc. There are also five fingers on each of our hands and feet.

But as far as images of Jesus in the OT Scriptures, I think the entirety of OT saints represent him in some way. From Adam to Malachi they all seem to symbolize Jesus in some way. And of course the NT Church is Jesus' body. We represent him as well--in particular when we're in obedience.

[Jason0047]

People do sin, yet are saved if they put their faith in Christ.

It's statements like this that I strongly disagree with. A person is not saved if they sin and they just have a belief (faith) in Jesus.
It would be more accurate to say that people do sin, but they are saved if they are faithful to Christ. Meaning, yes, believers can occasional sin, but they are saved if they believe in Christ as their Savior and their life is defined by obeying His commands.

However, what is often missing in some, is repentance.

And people do not repent because they do not believe that the Bible is correct by calling some things that they do to be a sin.
And if they do not repent, then their confession in Christ are just words, since they reject some of what Christ said.
And if they reject some of what Christ said, they do not believe IN Christ, even if they do call themselves Christians.

Does this make sense?

Thanks,
Ed

You are not telling me what repentance is. Many today in the church say that repentance is a change of mind about sin. However, Jesus defined repentance for us. In Matthew 12:41, Jesus said that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out unto God (repentance, i.e. ask God for forgiveness).
(b) Forsake their evil ways (the natural fruits of repentance).

In other words, repentance is the "sinner's prayer" followed by right action of one forsaking their evil ways or sins.

[randyk]

It's statements like this that I strongly disagree with. A person is not saved if they sin and they just have a belief (faith) in Jesus.
It would be more accurate to say that people do sin, but they are saved if they are faithful to Christ. Meaning, yes, believers can occasional sin, but they are saved if they believe in Christ as their Savior and their life is defined by obeying His commands.



You are not telling me what repentance is. Many today in the church say that repentance is a change of mind about sin. However, Jesus defined repentance for us. In Matthew 12:41, Jesus said that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out unto God (repentance, i.e. ask God for forgiveness).
(b) Forsake their evil ways (the natural fruits of repentance).

In other words, repentance is the "sinner's prayer" followed by right action of one forsaking their evil ways or sins.

With all due respect, it appears you're referring to *obedient Christianity,* and not necessarily *saved Christianity.* The price for salvation was Christ's work on the cross. Our only job is to adopt Christ's work in place of our own works. We may be fully obedient, or we may be backslidden. But salvation was paid for by Christ, and operates whenever a man puts his faith in him.

Putting faith in Christ is in itself a form of obedience, or righteousness. When we adopt Christ as our substitute we necessarily adopt his righteousness into our lives, even if it is just a percentage. God considers this acceptance of Christ the most critical percentage for purposes of salvation. He naturally wants full obedience, but God is happy to save us with a minimal acknowledgement of His superior life and righteousness.

[Jason0047]

Well, I'm an eternal security advocate, and have sin in my life. I'm walking in righteousness, but I also have sin in me. How do I know that? About every time I open my mouth I'm capable of saying something a little bit rude. Whenever I'm under pressure, the worst of me is capable of coming out. I spend my life apologizing.

This is not what Jesus and His followers taught. Nowhere did they say that a believer can just believe and have sin in their life (with them still being saved).

Jesus said that if a person were to call their brother a fool, they are in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22).
Jesus said if a person were to look upon a woman in lust, they are in danger of having their whole body being cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).
Jesus said if a person does not forgive, the Father will not forgive them (Matthew 6:15).
John says if a person hates their brother, they are a like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Does this bother me? Not at all. Perfect people don't get into heaven...except of course Jesus himself. Everybody who gets into heaven gets there by grace, being forgiven of not just past sins but also present sins.

While Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue, Sinless Perfection is the goal of Sanctification within this life because Jesus and Paul told us to be perfect many times.
Sinless Perfection is not keeping the basics of morality or loving your neighbor (like do not steal, do not murder, do not lie, etc.). Sinless Perfection is about putting away minor faults or errors within a believer's life (that do not relate to salvation exactly).

As for present sins being forgiven:

Present sins are not just automatically forgiven for a beleiver if they believe on Jesus and do nothing. If such were the case, then a believer can mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine and think they were saved. They could sleep with the neighbor's wife and think they were saved. But Jesus says we will know a tree by it's fruit.

There are sins that damn a soul. Those are to be avoided. The sins that damn the soul really come from those who honestly hate Christ. Some love what Christ gives them, but don't love Christ himself. This is a matter of discernment.

If there are sins that damn the soul and they are to be avoided, then that means there is no such thing as Eternal Security. Why tell anyone to avoid certain sins to begin with if it is only for those who hate Christ?

Avoiding sin is important because we need to not be taken off our walk in righteousness by getting caught up in these things that do harm to God's Kingdom. When we are on the right path we prosper in God's Kingdom, shedding light on God and on His glory. The abundance of God's Spirit can then be lavished upon all those around us. Sin stops this.

But what of the believer who had slipped into alcoholism, or porn, or fornication, or murder and they later ask God to forgive them of these things?
Was David saved in his sins of adultery and murder?

[DavidC]

This is not what Jesus and His followers taught. Nowhere did they say that a believer can just believe and have sin in their life (with them still being saved).

Jesus said that if a person were to call their brother a fool, they are in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22).
Jesus said if a person were to look upon a woman in lust, they are in danger of having their whole body being cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).
Jesus said if a person does not forgive, the Father will not forgive them (Matthew 6:15).
John says if a person hates their brother, they are a like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).



While Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue, Sinless Perfection is the goal of Sanctification within this life because Jesus and Paul told us to be perfect many times.
Sinless Perfection is not keeping the basics of morality or loving your neighbor (like do not steal, do not murder, do not lie, etc.). Sinless Perfection is about putting away minor faults or errors within a believer's life (that do not relate to salvation exactly).

As for present sins being forgiven:

Present sins are not just automatically forgiven for a beleiver if they believe on Jesus and do nothing. If such were the case, then a believer can mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine and think they were saved. They could sleep with the neighbor's wife and think they were saved. But Jesus says we will know a tree by it's fruit.



If there are sins that damn the soul and they are to be avoided, then that means there is no such thing as Eternal Security. Why tell anyone to avoid certain sins to begin with if it is only for those who hate Christ?



But what of the believer who had slipped into alcoholism, or porn, or fornication, or murder and they later ask God to forgive them of these things?
Was David saved in his sins of adultery and murder?

It's a matter of what you allow to control your life, we are no longer slaves to sin, but to righteousness, it still doesn't mean we don't sin, we just don't have to be controlled by it.

Even the very thought that you are without sin, is a sin! Even if for a second, it would mean you have pride.

Our goal here is to glorify God, not to reach a state where you believe you are "righteous" enough to get into heaven, because it is only the righteousness of Christ that even allows God to look our way.

[randyk]

This is not what Jesus and His followers taught. Nowhere did they say that a believer can just believe and have sin in their life (with them still being saved).

Don't prejudge my use of the word "sin." To have sin is not necessarily to engage in it regularly. We sin because sin resides within us--all of us! We read this in 1 John.

Nobody should suggest it is the right thing for a Christian to live in sin, such as to shack up with a prostitute, or to engage in worldly conversation and worldly interests. But even the greatest saint has sin residing within him.

So salvation was never made contingent on there being no sin in us. We are saved by grace. We walk in righteousness while sin exists, as a part of our nature, within us.

[Jason0047]

It's a matter of what you allow to control your life, we are no longer slaves to sin, but to righteousness, it still doesn't mean we don't sin, we just don't have to be controlled by it.

This is a contradictory statement. You said you do not allow sin to control your life and that we are not slaves to sin, but then you go back and say we still sin. One is either set free from sin and it's controlling effects or one is not set free from sin and it's control. That would be like saying, I am free from the control of drinking alcohol and then saying that I still drink on occasion. Such a thing would be a contradictory statement.

1 Peter 4:1-2 says,
1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

Even the very thought that you are without sin, is a sin! Even if for a second, it would mean you have pride.

Conditional Salvation is not saying that:

(a) Believers have never sinned as a part of their past old life (Before coming to Christ).
(b) Some believers can sin on occasion as a part of growing in their faith before they mature and walk uprightly.

However, it is not a sin to say that believers cannot stop sinning. For Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

Our goal here is to glorify God, not to reach a state where you believe you are "righteous" enough to get into heaven, because it is only the righteousness of Christ that even allows God to look our way.

While we are "Initially Saved" and "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace by our trust in in the Savior and what He has done for us with His death and resurrection and in our seeking forgiveness with Him, we are also saved by cooperating with Jesus working to do the good works through our lives. There is no such thing as "our righteousness" if we are praying for Jesus to work through us to help us to obey His commands that come from Him and His followers within the pages of the New Testament.

No believer can say that they can murder, steal, hate, and commit adultery and say they are saved by having a belief on Jesus. Even a little bit of sin cannot be justified with the Lord Jesus Christ because He is God and He is holy. The change of life is proof in the pudding that Christ lives within our lives.

1 John 2:3 essentially says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord Jesus if we find that we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 essentially says that a person who says they know Christ and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

Side Note:

When I say that we are ultimately saved by God's grace and not works, this means that if a believer sins, they do not get clean by doing another good work to offset that sin. They go to Jesus Christ to get cleansed by confessing their sin to Him. For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9 cf. 1 John 2:1). There is no teaching in the Bible that says we can just have a belief alone on Christ our whole lives and still remained saved even if we sin a little bit. There needs to be repentance and a or a change of life.

[Jason0047]

Don't prejudge my use of the word "sin." To have sin is not necessarily to engage in it regularly. We sin because sin resides within us--all of us! We read this in 1 John.

Nobody should suggest it is the right thing for a Christian to live in sin, such as to shack up with a prostitute, or to engage in worldly conversation and worldly interests. But even the greatest saint has sin residing within him.

So salvation was never made contingent on there being no sin in us. We are saved by grace. We walk in righteousness while sin exists, as a part of our nature, within us.

Galatians 5:24 says that believers have crucified the affections and lusts.
1 Peter 4:1-2 says that he (that person) who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. So we are to live the rest of our lives not to the lust of the flesh, but to the will of God. One cannot be living to the will of God and yet also saying they will sin (on rare occasion) as a matter of fact at some unknown future date.

[randyk]

This is not what Jesus and His followers taught. Nowhere did they say that a believer can just believe and have sin in their life (with them still being saved).

1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

You are directly contradicting this passage! It is not saying that Christians are lost while sin is in them. It is saying that we, as saved Christians, still have sin residing within us. It is *necessarily so.* This is not, of course, an encouragement to sin, nor a rationale for sin. Rather, it is a statement of fact, that Christian salvation overrides the fact sin resides in us. The purpose is to help us *overcome sin.* Christian salvation does not expect us to fully exterminate sin, as a part of our nature, from our lives!

Jesus said that if a person were to call their brother a fool, they are in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:22).
Jesus said if a person were to look upon a woman in lust, they are in danger of having their whole body being cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).
Jesus said if a person does not forgive, the Father will not forgive them (Matthew 6:15).
John says if a person hates their brother, they are a like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Yes, as I said, some sins can damn a soul. It is the character of the person that causes the damnation--not the acts themselves that are considered a violation of God's holiness. When a person *hates God,* he subscribes to sin as "okay with him." This is contrary to the Christian, who caves to sin at times, but loves God's holiness, and feels grief over his failures.

While Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue, Sinless Perfection is the goal of Sanctification within this life because Jesus and Paul told us to be perfect many times.

And so, you're contradicting yourself! If Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue, then what are we arguing?

On the matter of "being perfect," I think you're missing the implied meaning of "be perfect," which has to do with commitment, rather than with sinless perfection. People cannot be flawless, as shown above.

Sinless Perfection is not keeping the basics of morality or loving your neighbor (like do not steal, do not murder, do not lie, etc.). Sinless Perfection is about putting away minor faults or errors within a believer's life (that do not relate to salvation exactly).

I also believe we should strive to obey God in everything, to be loving, and not just do good. We need to strive for *excellence.* But this idea of "perfection" is weird and wrong. Perfection comes with glorification, and that comes with resurrection.

As for present sins being forgiven:

Present sins are not just automatically forgiven for a beleiver if they believe on Jesus and do nothing. If such were the case, then a believer can mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine and think they were saved. They could sleep with the neighbor's wife and think they were saved. But Jesus says we will know a tree by it's fruit.

Accepting imperfection is actually being humble and honest, and is part of "confession of sin." To strive for legalistic perfection is an exercise in futility, and will end in self-condemnation. Nobody should be looking for an excuse to sin. We are seeking righteousness, but not expecting legalistic perfection. We seek righteousness through humility, through deference to Christ.

If there are sins that damn the soul and they are to be avoided, then that means there is no such thing as Eternal Security. Why tell anyone to avoid certain sins to begin with if it is only for those who hate Christ?

You misunderstand. Commands are given to all to direct men to righteousness, since we are all free to obey. The fact some will not obey does not mean they should not be told what is required of them. Even if they inwardly hate God it is to their best interest to know what they can do that's pleasing to God. This will benefit both themselves and society, even if they don't want to live with Christ in paradise.

But what of the believer who had slipped into alcoholism, or porn, or fornication, or murder and they later ask God to forgive them of these things?
Was David saved in his sins of adultery and murder?

Salvation has a broad meaning, encompassing not just eternal salvation, but also, salvation in this life from things like murder attempts. While David was in sin, he was in danger of God's judgment. God could've taken his life, if he did not return to being who he really was--a holy man of God.

So God did "save" him from this. But I don't think David's eternal salvation was ever in doubt. He was called to be the lead for Jesus' 1st Coming. He had a heart after God. He was flawed, and was called upon by God, not to be "perfect," but to overcome his sin. In doing this he put his sin away, and did not practice it.

In the same way, sin is always within us, urging us to act out of emotion. However, we can overcome it, even if we can't exterminate the urge.

[TrustGzus]

Jason, the Corinthian church was a mess and had lots of sins. If sinning causes one to not stay saved, why isn’t 1 Corinthians filled with warnings about this! No book should have more warnings than this book, yet their absence is very loud.

Grace & peace,

Joe

[DavidC]

This is a contradictory statement. You said you do not allow sin to control your life and that we are not slaves to sin, but then you go back and say we still sin. One is either set free from sin and it's controlling effects or one is not set free from sin and it's control. That would be like saying, I am free from the control of drinking alcohol and then saying that I still drink on occasion. Such a thing would be a contradictory statement.

1 Peter 4:1-2 says,
1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."



Conditional Salvation is not saying that:

(a) Believers have never sinned as a part of their past old life (Before coming to Christ).
(b) Some believers can sin on occasion as a part of growing in their faith before they mature and walk uprightly.

However, it is not a sin to say that believers cannot stop sinning. For Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.



While we are "Initially Saved" and "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace by our trust in in the Savior and what He has done for us with His death and resurrection and in our seeking forgiveness with Him, we are also saved by cooperating with Jesus working to do the good works through our lives. There is no such thing as "our righteousness" if we are praying for Jesus to work through us to help us to obey His commands that come from Him and His followers within the pages of the New Testament.

No believer can say that they can murder, steal, hate, and commit adultery and say they are saved by having a belief on Jesus. Even a little bit of sin cannot be justified with the Lord Jesus Christ because He is God and He is holy. The change of life is proof in the pudding that Christ lives within our lives.

1 John 2:3 essentially says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord Jesus if we find that we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 essentially says that a person who says they know Christ and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

Side Note:

When I say that we are ultimately saved by God's grace and not works, this means that if a believer sins, they do not get clean by doing another good work to offset that sin. They go to Jesus Christ to get cleansed by confessing their sin to Him. For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9 cf. 1 John 2:1). There is no teaching in the Bible that says we can just have a belief alone on Christ our whole lives and still remained saved even if we sin a little bit. There needs to be repentance and a or a change of life.

A slave to sin is mastered by that sin, a person stuck in homosexuality or gambling, these are people who, rather than obey God, they obey their sin, on the other hand, a person might speed to get to class, this is a sin but th3 person is not a slave to it.

I would think if a person spent their time worrying about their sin, did I sin, am I perfect yet, God's doors and His opportunities would shut as we would not ne looking for those, we'd be worrying about our state of sanctification instead.

[jayne]

Jason, the Corinthian church was a mess and had lots of sins. If sinning causes one to not stay saved, why isn’t 1 Corinthians filled with warnings about this! No book should have more warnings than this book, yet their absence is very loud.

Grace & peace,

Joe

Thanks for this. This church Paul was writing to was in a HOT mess - sin abounded - of all kinds. Yet, what I read is Paul teaching them why the sins were wrong and to stop. Even going so far as to expel a church member who will not stop.

Even chapter 9, where Paul speaks of a concern of his being "disqualified" is not about losing salvation because of sin, but about having his ministry disqualified.

[Jason0047]

1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

You are directly contradicting this passage! It is not saying that Christians are lost while sin is in them. It is saying that we, as saved Christians, still have sin residing within us. It is *necessarily so.* This is not, of course, an encouragement to sin, nor a rationale for sin. Rather, it is a statement of fact, that Christian salvation overrides the fact sin resides in us.

Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

The purpose is to help us *overcome sin.* Christian salvation does not expect us to fully exterminate sin, as a part of our nature, from our lives!

You are speaking in contradictory terms. On one hand you say "overcome sin" and on the other hand you say, "that Christian salvation overrides the fact sin resides in us."

Yes, as I said, some sins can damn a soul. It is the character of the person that causes the damnation--not the acts themselves that are considered a violation of God's holiness. When a person *hates God,* he subscribes to sin as "okay with him." This is contrary to the Christian, who caves to sin at times, but loves God's holiness, and feels grief over his failures.

I see nothing of the sort when Jesus teaches against certain sins damning our souls. Jesus lists how various sins can cause a loss of salvation (See Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15). Paul also lists sins that can cause a loss of salvation (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Coritnhians 6:9-11). John also lists sins that can cause a loss of salvation (1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8). Nothing is said that these sins are the result of the condition of a person's character alone. These sins are emphasized to us believers because they can cause a loss of salvation if they are not repented of.

And so, you're contradicting yourself! If Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue, then what are we arguing?

The problem is denying the Sanctification process. The problem is not believing what Jesus and Paul says.

Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

On the matter of "being perfect," I think you're missing the implied meaning of "be perfect," which has to do with commitment, rather than with sinless perfection. People cannot be flawless, as shown above.

No. It means perfect. The word "blameless" is also used.

Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

If that was not enough, the 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).

Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).

I also believe we should strive to obey God in everything, to be loving, and not just do good. We need to strive for *excellence.* But this idea of "perfection" is weird and wrong. Perfection comes with glorification, and that comes with resurrection.

No. There are many Scripture verses that talk about perfection in this life.

Accepting imperfection is actually being humble and honest, and is part of "confession of sin." To strive for legalistic perfection is an exercise in futility, and will end in self-condemnation. Nobody should be looking for an excuse to sin. We are seeking righteousness, but not expecting legalistic perfection. We seek righteousness through humility, through deference to Christ.

No it is not. It does no good to just admit sin if you are not sorry to God or without forsaking that sin. There are many sinners who admit that what they do is wrong and yet they do not change and they are not sorry. A person who is truly sorry (repented) over their sin will stop sinning. You can read about this in the Parable of the two sons. For a Godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation (See 2 Corinthians 7:10).

So God did "save" him from this. But I don't think David's eternal salvation was ever in doubt. He was called to be the lead for Jesus' 1st Coming. He had a heart after God. He was flawed, and was called upon by God, not to be "perfect," but to overcome his sin. In doing this he put his sin away, and did not practice it.

If David was saved in his adultery and murder, then this would mean God's grace is a license for immorality. This would mean that we are free to teach that we can also murder and commit adultery and still be saved, too. But the Bible does not teach such a thing. David needed the joy of his salvation back (See Psalms 51). Jude 1:4 warns us against turning God’s grace into a license for immorality.