Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 25 of 25

Thread: The Third Heaven

  1. #16

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven, thus raising 2 questions: (1) Just how many heavens are there? (2) What is the nature of the first 2 heavens? Paul does not explicitly answer these questions, but it is helpful to recognize that he shares this 3rd heaven location of Paradise with some intertestamental Jewish traditions. This Jewish tradition describes the first 2 heavens in terms reminiscent of the Catholic Purgatory, a concept introduced many centuries after the NT period. "Paradise" is an Old Persion term meaning "park" or "garden." Paradise is the preferred landing spot for the righteous and the dying thief on the cross is promised by Jesus that he will be there with Him that very day (Luke 23:43).

    The "new earth" is not our earth remodeled; nor are we told the New Jerusalem actually descends to land on our earth. John links the arrival of the new earth todthe "passing away" of our earth, adding that "the sea was no more (Revelation 21:1)." Nor does the new earth have a moon or revolve around a sun (21:23). In my view, the "new earth" exists in a spiritual dimension and may well be another expression for an earthlike Paradise. Remember. Jesus tells His audience that no one on earth will be able to say, "Look, there it [the kingdom of God] is! The Greek word "new" (kainos) often means "new in the sense of a replacement."

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    272

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by verity View Post
    I thank you for your response, but citing these three verses is comparing apples to oranges. 2Kings 11:5 is past history. Isaiah 19:24 is about the day of the LORD. Zech 13:9 is addressed to to the children of Israel.

    Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
    Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

    These verses have nothing to do with the third heaven. Neither should "the third" be singled out as only speaking about "true believers". For instance, in scripture there is mention of the third day, the third month, the third year, the third river, the third generation, the third row, the third time, the third son, the third captain, etc.
    Quite the contrary. These verses are so blatantly talking about true believers it is pretty amazing to think someone would think it was not. These verses are specifically talking about true believers. They speak of those whom God has blessed. The term 'blessed' in the Bible means those who are saved. That is why the Bible defines them nicely in Romans 4:7: "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered." Further, the verses are describing "my people", "the work of my hands" and "mine inheritance". In other words, saved persons. Did you know that saved persons are the work of God's hands? Did you know that they are also his inheritance? What happens when people read the Bible as a surface text, as if it were talking about political nations rather than spiritual types of persons, is that they miss the actual message and end up with a wrong message, not understanding that the Bible is written as a parable. That the Bible must be interpreted as a parable to get at the correct meaning is seen by what the Bible says about itself: "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable". And again, "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." For example, if Christ was crucified on Golgotha of Jerusalem in the country of Judah which became Israel why does the Bible say that this is spiritually called Egypt and Sodom as well? "in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

  3. #18

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDonald View Post
    Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven, thus raising 2 questions: (1) Just how many heavens are there? (2) What is the nature of the first 2 heavens? Paul does not explicitly answer these questions, but it is helpful to recognize that he shares this 3rd heaven location of Paradise with some intertestamental Jewish traditions. This Jewish tradition describes the first 2 heavens in terms reminiscent of the Catholic Purgatory, a concept introduced many centuries after the NT period. "Paradise" is an Old Persion term meaning "park" or "garden." Paradise is the preferred landing spot for the righteous and the dying thief on the cross is promised by Jesus that he will be there with Him that very day (Luke 23:43).

    The "new earth" is not our earth remodeled; nor are we told the New Jerusalem actually descends to land on our earth. John links the arrival of the new earth todthe "passing away" of our earth, adding that "the sea was no more (Revelation 21:1)." Nor does the new earth have a moon or revolve around a sun (21:23). In my view, the "new earth" exists in a spiritual dimension and may well be another expression for an earthlike Paradise. Remember. Jesus tells His audience that no one on earth will be able to say, "Look, there it [the kingdom of God] is! The Greek word "new" (kainos) often means "new in the sense of a replacement."
    Hmm. As to whether the New Jerusalem actually descends onto the earth, we are told that the city has foundations. It is prepared by God in heaven and descends out of it. Abraham looked for this hope:

    Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

    Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    The wall of the city also has foundations as seen in Rev 21:14,19
    What are we told about "paradise?"

    Regarding “paradise” there are only three occurrences of it (i.e., the Greek word, paradeisos) in the Bible. They are as follows:

    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Cor 12:2-4)

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7)

    But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with Me in paradise. (Lu 23:40-43)

    Thus, we can conclude the following:



    1. Paradise will be in the holy city of Jerusalem which is prepared by God. It will descend onto the new earth from the new (third) heaven. (John’s vision described in Revelation 21-22:1-5 and mentioned by Paul in 2Cor 12:4.
    2. Overcomers will be in paradise. Rev 2:7
    3. Tree of life will be in the midst of the paradise. Rev 2:7; Rev 22:2,14
    4. Malefactor and Christ will be in paradise. Luke 23:43



    There is more to learn about the future tree of life in Revelation:

    And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. . . And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Rev 22:1-5, 12-14)

  4. #19

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by birdy View Post
    Quite the contrary. These verses are so blatantly talking about true believers it is pretty amazing to think someone would think it was not. These verses are specifically talking about true believers. They speak of those whom God has blessed. The term 'blessed' in the Bible means those who are saved. That is why the Bible defines them nicely in Romans 4:7: "Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered." Further, the verses are describing "my people", "the work of my hands" and "mine inheritance". In other words, saved persons. Did you know that saved persons are the work of God's hands? Did you know that they are also his inheritance? What happens when people read the Bible as a surface text, as if it were talking about political nations rather than spiritual types of persons, is that they miss the actual message and end up with a wrong message, not understanding that the Bible is written as a parable. That the Bible must be interpreted as a parable to get at the correct meaning is seen by what the Bible says about itself: "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable". And again, "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." For example, if Christ was crucified on Golgotha of Jerusalem in the country of Judah which became Israel why does the Bible say that this is spiritually called Egypt and Sodom as well? "in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
    Birdy,

    The verse you shared:
    Zec_13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My People: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    Zechariah is referencing the third part of the Jews who survive the time of Jacob's trouble [the great tribulation]. These will be severely tested. God will protect some throughout the period. Others will be martyred for their faith.

    Who are these who are called "My People"? Leviticus sheds light on this:

    Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be My People.
    Lev 26:13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.

    The term 'blessed' in the Bible means those who are saved
    There are blessings and punishments throughout the OT. When the children of Israel obeyed God's commandments, they were blessed. If they turned to false gods and disobeyed God, they were punished.

    Here is an example of this principle:

    Blessings-
    Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
    Lev 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
    Lev 26:4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
    Lev 26:5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
    Lev 26:6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
    Lev 26:7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
    Lev 26:8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
    Lev 26:9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
    Lev 26:10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
    Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

    Punishments-
    Lev 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
    Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
    Lev 26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
    Lev 26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
    Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
    Lev 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
    Lev 26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
    Lev 26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
    Lev 26:22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
    Lev 26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
    Lev 26:24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
    Lev 26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy...
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Although there are parables in the Bible as well as many figures of speech, much of the word is plain spoken. It is literal.

    Christ began speaking in parables because of the Pharisees. He knew their hearts. He gave the reason for speaking in parables:

    Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

  5. #20

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDonald View Post
    Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven, thus raising 2 questions: (1) Just how many heavens are there? (2) What is the nature of the first 2 heavens? Paul does not explicitly answer these questions, but it is helpful to recognize that he shares this 3rd heaven location of Paradise with some intertestamental Jewish traditions. This Jewish tradition describes the first 2 heavens in terms reminiscent of the Catholic Purgatory, a concept introduced many centuries after the NT period. "Paradise" is an Old Persion term meaning "park" or "garden." Paradise is the preferred landing spot for the righteous and the dying thief on the cross is promised by Jesus that he will be there with Him that very day (Luke 23:43).

    The "new earth" is not our earth remodeled; nor are we told the New Jerusalem actually descends to land on our earth. John links the arrival of the new earth todthe "passing away" of our earth, adding that "the sea was no more (Revelation 21:1)." Nor does the new earth have a moon or revolve around a sun (21:23). In my view, the "new earth" exists in a spiritual dimension and may well be another expression for an earthlike Paradise. Remember. Jesus tells His audience that no one on earth will be able to say, "Look, there it [the kingdom of God] is! The Greek word "new" (kainos) often means "new in the sense of a replacement."
    Paul did not locate Paradise in the third heaven. He simply said that there was a man caught up to the third heaven [B]AND[/B, (meaning additionalli)] that such a man was caught up to to Paradise where he heard unspeakable words that are not lawful.

    For those under the law, the words spoken in Paradise were unlawful and, therefore, unspeakable. The implication, although not written down by Paul, is that the words heard in Paradise is the truth that believers in Jesus Christ confess.

    God never does a thing or say a thing out of His divine pattern. As there are seven spiritual places, so are there seven heavenly places. First, we must receive and understand the pattern to see how the spiritual places are counted. Then, we also count heavenly places according to the same pattern.

    Paradise is not a heavenly place. Jesus Christ did not ascend to heaven with one of two sinners on that day He was crucified. He ascended to heaven many days after resurrection and meetings with His disciples on earth. But, He was with the thief in Paradise on the same day of His crucifixion.

    Paradise is a spiritual place under heaven.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    7,348

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Paul did not locate Paradise in the third heaven. He simply said that there was a man caught up to the third heaven [B]AND[/B, (meaning additionalli)] that such a man was caught up to to Paradise where he heard unspeakable words that are not lawful.

    For those under the law, the words spoken in Paradise were unlawful and, therefore, unspeakable. The implication, although not written down by Paul, is that the words heard in Paradise is the truth that believers in Jesus Christ confess.

    God never does a thing or say a thing out of His divine pattern. As there are seven spiritual places, so are there seven heavenly places. First, we must receive and understand the pattern to see how the spiritual places are counted. Then, we also count heavenly places according to the same pattern.

    Paradise is not a heavenly place. Jesus Christ did not ascend to heaven with one of two sinners on that day He was crucified. He ascended to heaven many days after resurrection and meetings with His disciples on earth. But, He was with the thief in Paradise on the same day of His crucifixion.

    Paradise is a spiritual place under heaven.
    You are simply making these seven heavens up out of thin air. There is NOTHING in the Bible that says such a thing. Thus, you have provided no scriptures.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    4,398
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    You are simply making these seven heavens up out of thin air. There is NOTHING in the Bible that says such a thing. Thus, you have provided no scriptures.
    I wholeheartedly agree. It is a very, very dangerous thing to add our presumptions to God's truths.
    ".....it's your nickel"

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Bakersfield
    Posts
    4,159

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree. It is a very, very dangerous thing to add our presumptions to God's truths.
    But unfortunately all too common an occurrence.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    4,398
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    God never does a thing or say a thing out of His divine pattern. As there are seven spiritual places, so are there seven heavenly places. First, we must receive and understand the pattern to see how the spiritual places are counted. Then, we also count heavenly places according to the same pattern.
    Here is where you have everyone scratching their heads. Here is where either you have made this up or someone else did and you believed it and passed it along. Please, give evidence of these beliefs from the Bible.

    Either that, or tell us where you got this idea from. It's not ethical of you to post an untruth and just leave it there for all to see with no proof of what you are saying.
    ".....it's your nickel"

  10. #25

    Re: The Third Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    Here is where you have everyone scratching their heads. Here is where either you have made this up or someone else did and you believed it and passed it along. Please, give evidence of these beliefs from the Bible.

    Either that, or tell us where you got this idea from. It's not ethical of you to post an untruth and just leave it there for all to see with no proof of what you are saying.
    If you have already concluded my post as "untruth", why are you asking for evidence? Why do you want evidence of an "untruth"?

    Perhaps, you should prove me wrong by showing any instance that God does a thing or work out of His established pattern.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Discussion Is our reward really heaven? Is Heaven our home?
    By uric3 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: Mar 10th 2016, 08:57 PM
  2. Rewards in heaven/levels or positions in heaven-New Thread
    By Nobody101 in forum Christians Answer
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Oct 5th 2014, 12:09 PM
  3. Rewards in heaven/levels or positions in heaven
    By Oregongrown in forum Christians Answer
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: Oct 3rd 2014, 08:41 AM
  4. Hell or Heaven vs Soul Cleansing then Heaven
    By jewess in forum Christians Answer
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Mar 28th 2009, 11:19 PM
  5. Replies: 32
    Last Post: Aug 21st 2008, 09:09 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •