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Thread: Covenant and Christians

  1. #16
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    But that is not what God uses as a "designation" to name a covenant. Besides, that verse is what God reveals concerning the work of the Holy Spirit, inside of and upon the life of the believer.
    So this scripture,
    *[[Heb 8:13]] KJV* In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    This scripture does NOT explain why it is called. The "new" covenant?

    Secondly, are you saying that the holy spirit is the sole basis for "how to live" and has nothing to do with God's laws written on your heart?
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    So this scripture,
    *[[Heb 8:13]] KJV* In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    This scripture does NOT explain why it is called. The "new" covenant?

    Secondly, are you saying that the holy spirit is the sole basis for "how to live" and has nothing to do with God's laws written on your heart?
    Blessings
    The PuP
    I questioned calling the new covenant, "New Covenant OF LAW."

    Never have I heard that. I have heard the present covenant called, "The New Covenant" because that is how this covenant is designated in scripture (as A New Covenant)... only one of which you just posted.

    The New Covenant was also "prophesied" and only one example is:

    Jeremiah 31:31-34 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    The whole purpose of this prophecy is to inform Israel that the Law will END and will not continue. But by a name such as a New Covenant of Law refutes what the intention of the ordained New Covenant is all about... to get away from living under a curse. Instead, the New Covenant is about being brought from being dead under the Law, to ALIVE in Christ.

    I'm saying this concerning the Holy Spirit... HOW is a "law" written in a person's heart? It is the power of the Holy Spirit manifest in a believer, redeeming them (making them alive) and leading them, convicting them, etc. This is what the New Covenant provides for believers.

    Before, a bunch of written Laws informed the Israelis what was sin and detailed rituals/actions in how to be forgiven of these sins. NOW, the intention of those 613 Laws are a PART of us (members of the Body of Christ) by the Holy Spirit who MOVES us, convicts us, and even EMPOWERS us to do ALL in LIFE with Christ... HE did all the work of sacrifice, completed. Which could not be accomplished by those 613 Laws.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #18
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I questioned calling the new covenant, "New Covenant OF LAW."

    Never have I heard that. I have heard the present covenant called, "The New Covenant" because that is how this covenant is designated in scripture (as A New Covenant)... only one of which you just posted.

    I'm saying this concerning the Holy Spirit... HOW is a "law" written in a person's heart? It is the power of the Holy Spirit manifest in a believer, redeeming them (making them alive) and leading them, convicting them, etc.

    Before, a bunch of written Laws led the Israelis and informed them all, what was sin. NOW, the intention of those 613 Laws are a PART of us (members of the Body of Christ) by the Holy Spirit who MOVES us, convicts us, and even EMPOWERS us to do ALL that those 613 Laws COULDN'T do.
    I would say "basis" rather than "intention". And that basis is love. That basis is the essence of who God is. The essence of righteousness and holiness, i.e., the laws of God and who he is.
    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I would say "basis" rather than "intention". And that basis is love. That basis is the essence of who God is. The essence of righteousness and holiness, i.e., the laws of God and who he is.
    Blessings
    The PuP
    Hooah... I made more edits to that post.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  5. #20
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Hooah... I made more edits to that post.
    You seem to be saying that we are no longer under "the law" to which i would point you to:

    *[[1Co 9:20]] KJV* And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    *[[1Co 9:21]] KJV* To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

    Being under the law means to depend on the law for a righteous standing with God. But it does not mean that law does not establish what constitutes righteousness. The law (was and) is good and holy. The law is the basis for establishing what is righteous and holy, i.e., what constitutes loving God and loving man.
    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    I’ve never heard of New Covenant of Law either.
    In my opinion, this is the regular resurgence of "legalism," the reinstatement of requirements under the Law of Moses. It never really goes away, in this view. It just gets sort of reformatted, or processed under a different name.

    Conventional Christianity, Protestant and Catholic, would recognize that there is *law* in both covenants, OT and NT. But the *law* in the NT does not consist of the same rules that were associated with the OT. Obviously, there is some lapover, but the package is very different from OT to NT!

    I have my own way of describing it. Many of the moral principles are the same, but they are no longer to be associated with Israel. They are only associated with the behavior of Christ himself. Everything under the OT was *Israeli,* whether Israeli people or Israeli priests. It was all made acceptable by special dispensation, but neither could it provide for eternal life.

    By contrast, the NT provides both righteousness and eternal life. Since this righteousness has to do with Christ and not Israel, no rituals of cleansing under the Law need to be associated with it. All of those rituals involved foreshadowings of what Christ would do on his own, without the participation of Israel. And he didn't need to be cleansed from sin, or purified, or otherwise sanctified for priestly work.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Walls, a couple of questions.

    Do you not think that Israel and Judah are one in Christ?
    Are there a different path for Israel and Judah? One not through Christ?
    Jer 31:32* Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:*
    What are the consequences of them breaking the covenant? Can you say it is still in effect when it is broken? How can you reclaim or mend that which is broken?
    Can you still claim the blessings or promises of the covenant if you have broken it or are only the curses still in effect?
    Why do the church practice communion if it is not for them, as it is in remembrance of the covenant and what Jesus has done?
    1Co 11:25* After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.*
    When our Lord Jesus came, we must remember that of ALL Israel, those in Canaan were a very small fraction. The Twelve Northern Tribes, called Israel after Jeroboam, NONE returned from the Assyrian deportations. Of the remaining Two Southern Tribes, called Judah after Jeroboam, only 2.5% returned from the Babylonian deportation. To this ABSOLUTE MINORITY of ALL Israel (all the s0ns of Jacob) He offered Israel remission of sins and Eternal Life if they believed in Him. They didn't. They refused Him and murdered Him. The other 99%+ were in dispersion and chastisement for a BROKEN COVENANT OF LAW. So the picture for ALL the sons of Jacob - ALL Israel, looks dim, and most Christians are taught that God is finished with them.

    But God made another Covenant, the Covenant of Promise 430 years earlier than the Covenant of Law. And in this case He walked alone between Abraham's offerings. That is, because He PROMISES to give this Land to Israel, He undertakes UNILATERALLY to bring Israel IN TOTAL (that is, every Israelite ever born). So God needs TWO THINGS to make this LEGAL (for He is a righteous God and willnever violate His own Laws or principles). God needs;
    1. Someone to pay for Israel's sins
    2. God needs a New Covenant of Law so that once Israel are reinstated in their Land, they will not be thrown out again

    Our Lord Jesus Christ meets BOTH NEEDS. He takes away, not only the sins of the believers, BUT OF THE WORLD (Jn.1:29; 1st Jn.2:2). This gives God the JUDICIAL right to apply grace how He likes. So redeeming Israel is LEGALLY ACCOMPLISHED (Lk.1:68). But because the FIRST Covenant of Law is broken and the penalties have been applied, a New Covenant of God's Laws needs to be NOT ONLY PUT IN PLACE, but needs to be RATIFIED IN BLOOD. This Jesus does on Golgotha. All that remains is for ALL Israelites to be (1) resurrected, and (2) gathered back to Canaan. But God has set the time of Israel's chastisement at TWO DAYS - Hosea 6:2. In the THIRD He will heal Israel. So although the New Covenant of Law is RATIFIED already, the INSTITUTION of the New Covenant must wait fr this THIRD DAY. I will let you find out how long TWO DAYS are.

    SO ISRAEL'S RECOVERY IS INTIMATELY CONNECTED WITH JESUS CHRIST.

    BUT ... Since Israel refused their Messiah, and refused His Kingdom, THEY CAN NEVER BE BORN AGAIN AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE LIKE THE CHURCH. They are SAVED as a NATION, and will be leading nation again, just as Zacharias prophesied under inspiration in the closing verses of Luke Chapter 1.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Walls, where do you hear this phrase "New Covenant of Law"? I've been a Christian for 35 years and have never heard it once.
    Jeremiah 31:33 explains what the New Covenant is - that is, its CONTENT. "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

    Thus, it is a Covenant of LAW.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That is so confusing. I don't know of *any* Christians, except perhaps on this Forum, who would say it this way! Where do you hear among Christians "New Covenant of Law?" That's an oxymoron! The New Covenant is in opposition to the Mosaic Law! The New Covenant contains law, but is incompatible with THE Law! What Christians believe this--since you claim there are many?

    Again, the New Covenant was enacted and went into effect at Christ's death and resurrection. The New Covenant will take effect for Israel *as a nation* when Christ returns. This is what Jeremiah was talking about--not when the New Covenant would be initiated for the world, but when the New Covenant will actually produce fruit in national Israel. It was a prophecy of when Israel as a nation would be restored. Christ himself said that *he* initiated the New Covenant at his 1st Coming.
    Wow! What an encouraging turnaround. A short while ago you were fighting tooth and nail for the New Covenant to be with the Church.

    As to your "oxymoron", let me explain it again.
    1. A Covenant is a Contract. A Contract is an agreement between two parties in which both parties agree to do something and receive rewards, and in which penalties exist fro non-compliance.
    2. The Law of Moses is the CONTENT of this Covenant. It sets forth all that Israel must DO, and what God will DO in return if they COMPLY. It also sets forth all that God will do if Israel do NOT COMPLY

    So Israel DID NOT comply with the Law of Moses. That means besides a broken Law, there is also a broken Covenant. Added to this, Israel did not fulfill the Law. Starting with the Golden Calf they broke it continuously. So when God sets up Israel in their Land again wen He returns, He does not make NEW LAWS. He makes a NEW CONTRACT with the same CONDITIONS as before. But to make it WORK, he does not write these Laws on stone tables OUTSIDE of Israelites. He writes them INSIDE on the hearts and minds. THE CONTRACT IS NEW - THE CONTENT IS THE SAME. Israel, besides living righteously before God in their Land, must serve the Temple where Emmanuel lives. This is the CONTENT of the Law of Moses, and one can see this service unfold, with the original Levitical Priesthood, in the closing Chapters of Ezekiel.

    Christianity forces themselves into a corner by trying to apply this Covenant of Law on the Church. Here is the great confusion. They see and read that this Covenant is made with Israel, but try to force it into Church-lore somehow. But it doesn't fit. Israel rejected their Messiah. THEY CANNOT BE SAVED BY FAITH AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. But they can fulfill the Covenant of Promise in that they are fully restored as leading nation in their Land with Emmanuel dwelling WITH them in Jerusalem. The Church on the other hand HAS Eternal Life, is the bride of Christ and rules the earth.

    The word "SAVED" for the Church is DIFFERENT to the word "SAVED" for Israel. Just as Noah's "salvation" is FROM water, but the Christian conscience is "saved BY water" (1st Pet.3:20-21). Christians try to summarize the Bible, with its 66 Books and some 1,200 Chapters into one Chapter. They disregard that Israel could be "saved", let alone admit that their NATIONAL SALVATION is different to the Churches SUPRA-NATIONAL salvation. They won't even differentiate between three Greek words rendered hell - let alone the judicially intricate redemption of Israel. The Bible is not 66 Books for nothing.

  10. #25
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [*]A Covenant is a Contract. A Contract is an agreement between two parties in which both parties agree to do something and receive rewards, and in which penalties exist fro non-compliance.
    A covenant is FAR more than a contract. It is a relationship too. The closest thing we have to it in the west is marriage. It supercedes all relationships rather than marriage. Jonathon's covenant with David meant that his relationship with David superceded his relationship with Saul. That is one reason Saul wanted to kill his own son. When people go into covenant, there's much more than just a contract. There's an exchanging of names, enemies, strengths, etc.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    A covenant is FAR more than a contract. It is a relationship too. The closest thing we have to it in the west is marriage. It supercedes all relationships rather than marriage. Jonathon's covenant with David meant that his relationship with David superceded his relationship with Saul. That is one reason Saul wanted to kill his own son. When people go into covenant, there's much more than just a contract. There's an exchanging of names, enemies, strengths, etc.
    Maybe. But it is still a Contract. That it is is profound and intricate is given, but a Contract it is, especially for the purposes of showing the difference between the Covenant and its Content.

    Covenant, -ˈkʌv(ə)nənt/ (noun) - an agreement.
    Synonyms: contract, compact, treaty, pact, accord, deal, bargain, settlement, concordat, protocol, entente, agreement, arrangement, understanding, pledge, promise, bond, indenture, guarantee, warrant;

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Good night y'all. Its 01:35 here. Bedtime! God bless friend and foe alike.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Maybe. But it is still a Contract. That it is is profound and intricate is given, but a Contract it is, especially for the purposes of showing the difference between the Covenant and its Content.

    Covenant, -ˈkʌv(ə)nənt/ (noun) - an agreement.
    Synonyms: contract, compact, treaty, pact, accord, deal, bargain, settlement, concordat, protocol, entente, agreement, arrangement, understanding, pledge, promise, bond, indenture, guarantee, warrant;
    It is far more than "just" a contract. It required the killing of animals. It required a meal of bread and wine and many other steps. It was life long as well. Often scripture mentions one step when it mentions two people going into covenant.

    I can enter into a contract with a business man. However, no one would enter into a covenant with a person they did not know very well nor did anyone enter into covenant to conduct business. To call it a contract is to minimize what it really is. We call it that in English because we don't have such a concept in our language like the ancients did.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  14. #29
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    You seem to be saying that we are no longer under "the law" to which i would point you to:

    *[[1Co 9:20]] KJV* And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    *[[1Co 9:21]] KJV* To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

    Being under the law means to depend on the law for a righteous standing with God. But it does not mean that law does not establish what constitutes righteousness. The law (was and) is good and holy. The law is the basis for establishing what is righteous and holy, i.e., what constitutes loving God and loving man.
    Blessings
    The PuP
    Uh huh... then balance the context of 1 Cor 9 with all of Paul's letter to the Galatians where being under the Mosaic Law is a curse. There is a balance

    Paul is saying in 1 Cor 9 is that he is valuing Jewish heritage, NOT valuing the Mosaic Law which is done away with since Jesus' resurrection. Paul is being like the Jews so he can get them to listen to him (like a pastor today taking off his suit and putting on leather and jeans, to speak to a bunch of bikers). With Paul, please see that is in that second verse you used, Paul distinguishes between 1st the old Jewish "Law" and contrasts that with what is NOW a law to follow, or Christ. Which has no ethnicity, another overall point of his lesson.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  15. #30
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    How this ended up in End Times...
    However, I think the Law remains even to this day. It will do so even after Jesus returns.
    As noted the New Covenant is the Law written on one's heart.
    So the question then, which baffles many is to separate out the Law, and the various Covenants which hinge upon that Law.

    An example to help clarify may be that of gravity. There is a simple Law of Gravity which exists whether you acknowledge it or not.
    It has consequences if you ignore it - step off a cliff and plunge to your death being one.
    However we also have another Law, that of aerodynamics.
    Use a hang-glider and step off that cliff and then soar away.
    Neither Law is false, nor are either broken, corrupt or untrue, yet the effects of one is dealt with by the other.

    Now, for me when we say Law of Gravity, what we really mean is the codification of how Gravity works. The same for the Law of Aerodynamics (and any other Law).
    When we say the word Law then, we often think of its codification, rather than its reality.

    The Law (of God) is good and true and a blessing. This is the reality of it. However when we consider its codification through that given to Moses, we find (like other Laws) that there is a consequence attached to it. This consequence is a curse, for it highlights our sin and leads us to death. However Moses law, was not the entirety of the Law of God. His Covenant is one of faith, as stated in Hebrews 11 and Romans 4. Yet the Law of Moses (and the Prophets) testifies about this in Romans 3:21.

    Faith does NOT remove the Law, but rather brings the justification REQUIRED by the Law, through another means - that of Jesus.
    As Paul notes in Romans 3:22 and 23, "There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short...

    The Covenant then is about relationship with God. It is also about relationship with Man. It is an exceedingly good thing, and I am completely happy to be in a Covenant relationship with God, which does have requirements and consequences and is part of His Law. This is what Paul argues so eloquently for - that we note how Jesus meets our needs through His death, and so how we too die according to the one aspect of the Law, in order to live according to the other.
    He has given us the command to obey Him,, to love one another and many other commands. We are living in His Law. It is however a Law of Grace, which does not rely on our ability, but on Himself.

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